Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-04-17, 02:39 AM   #1
TiHabanero
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Henry James Out of Stock

Just finished up two frame drawings, ready to build and went to Henry James to pick up some tubes and lugs and they are out of stock on just about everything. What is going on? Have not built a frame in quite a few years and was not expecting this. Want US made goods, but it looks like it is not possible.
TiHabanero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-17, 02:45 AM   #2
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
True Temper stopped making bicycle frame tubing and Henry James had put most of their eggs in that basket. Not sure what their plans are for the future. For Made in the USA tubing, Vari-Wall has filled that void. https://shop.vari-wall.com/bicycle-tubing/

You'll have to source lugs from somewhere else. Nova, Ceeway, Framebuilder Supply and Richard Sachs are a few that come to mind.
dsaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-17, 08:17 AM   #3
TiHabanero
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Yes, I heard about True Temper, which really stinks as their tubing was top shelf, however I did not know that HJ would stop with their lugs. Super quality lugs that look good from every angle. Unfortunately I need a regular 73 seat lug, and they are out of stock. I have not built with the lugs that Nova offers. Are they as precise with the way the tube fits as HJ?
TiHabanero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-17, 08:19 AM   #4
TiHabanero
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
I forgot to thank you for the tip on Variwall tubing. Never heard of it before, but then I am a hobby builder so I don't keep up on stuff like the pros.
TiHabanero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-17, 03:52 AM   #5
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
I have only built one lugged frame and that one required some working of the lugs to get the tubes to fit. From what I have read, that seems to be common with most lugs. You'll have to wait on others, with more lugged frame experience, to comment on where to get quality lugs.
dsaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-17, 07:54 AM   #6
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
what angle lugs do they have in stock? 1 degree usually can be accommodated pretty easily
__________________
Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-17, 07:07 PM   #7
TiHabanero
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Seat lug is 74. I have built before with 73 lug and made it work for a 72 degree angle, no big deal. I am just surprised with the direction they have taken. Guess I trusted they would be around for a long, long time. Suppose not. The HJ lugs that I have worked with have required zero work to fit tubes into them. Wonderfully made. Hopefully I get a break for lunch and can place a call to them.
TiHabanero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 12:20 PM   #8
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I never think about those lugs. They were tightly coupled with TT, so changing is a problem for them. I think the fact that they were running a phone-based business in a web-based world for so long hurt them a lot, even though they finally have a good website.

I imagine the demand for the lugs is small enough that they are reluctant to stock too many. They do seem to be one of the better options for standard size lugs. I am a little stumped by the existence of a 74 degree lug though.
__________________
Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-17, 09:02 PM   #9
avhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I am a little stumped by the existence of a 74 degree lug though.
Explain? Some people would get a better fit? Would they not?
avhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-17, 09:30 PM   #10
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
74 seems oddly specific to me. It's not an angle that is in common use, maybe on small frames
__________________
Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-17, 10:24 PM   #11
Andrew R Stewart 
Andrew R Stewart
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 822 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
74 seems oddly specific to me. It's not an angle that is in common use, maybe on small frames

Bingo! Andy.
Andrew R Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-17, 02:23 PM   #12
avhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
74 seems oddly specific to me. It's not an angle that is in common use, maybe on small frames
That is all you can use on the smallest frames. There is not 63 degree down tube lug or 72 degree head angle to line up to lesser angle seat angle.
avhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-17, 07:06 PM   #13
Andrew R Stewart 
Andrew R Stewart
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 822 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by avhed View Post
That is all you can use on the smallest frames. There is not 63 degree down tube lug or 72 degree head angle to line up to lesser angle seat angle.


Which is why better builders who use lugs are adapt at both altering stock lugs (by as much as 4+ degrees) and making their own. Andy
Andrew R Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-17, 09:48 AM   #14
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
on small frames, it's often a shortcut to increase the seat angle. Of course, people don't like toe overlap, which is the other way it can go. But if the person ends up putting on a seatpost with a lot of setback, what have you accomplished? I have definitely seen this in practice.
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-17, 04:57 AM   #15
TiHabanero
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 911
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Good news! Received Henry James lugs and tubes. Will have two all American made frames put together in a few months, and have a request for another one after that. At the least I will be using HJ lugs and bottom bracket on the third frame as they may be out of True Temper tubes by then. Will look at Variflex at that time.


Anyone have input on Veriflex tubes? The good, bad, ugly?
TiHabanero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-17, 01:43 PM   #16
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
You mean vari-wall? I have seen some grumbling about sizes, but I'm confident they make good tubes.

I have to admit I like Columbus tubing a lot, and the new Compass Kaisei tubes look really interesting.
__________________
Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-17, 04:41 AM   #17
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
I think Vari-Wall is still working out what diameters, lengths and butting profiles the industry really wants(versus the desires of a very vocal minority).

In terms of the quality of the tubes, a friend who has used them says they are the straightest and cleanest tubes he has ever used.

The latest batch of True Temper tubes I got from Henry James were some of the worst tubes I've seen, in terms of straightness and visible tooling marks inside the tubes.
dsaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-17, 05:10 PM   #18
avhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
on small frames, it's often a shortcut to increase the seat angle.
How is that?
avhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-17, 05:14 PM   #19
avhed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Which is why better builders who use lugs are adapt at both altering stock lugs (by as much as 4+ degrees) and making their own. Andy
I would think that building at the manufactured angle would provide a better lug than the best bender can.
avhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-17, 10:02 PM   #20
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 15,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by avhed View Post
How is that?
the frame has to fit the rider, not the other way around. Using a steeper seat tube angle makes it easier to design, but it may not fit the rider. Again, if the rider ends up with a lot of saddle setback and a short stem, making a steep seat tube has accomplished exactly nothing except to make the weight balance of the bike that much wonkier. Better to go to smaller wheels or figure out how to get more toe clearance by designing the front end of the bike with that in mind.

Are you a builder? You might want to look at the lugs available and you will see that there are not infinite sizes available. In fact, there is almost always only one angle available for any given lug design. The real problem area is the downtube head lug. If you have never designed a frame, try using rattlecad or the online version of bikecad and see where the angles end up.
__________________
Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-17, 08:38 AM   #21
Andrew R Stewart 
Andrew R Stewart
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Raleigh Pro, Trek Cycle Cross, Mongoose tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder
Posts: 8,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 822 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by avhed View Post
I would think that building at the manufactured angle would provide a better lug than the best bender can.

As long as the tube to tube fit is good then the joint will be good too (assuming proper brazing et all). Much past about 4mm of tube socket overlap isn't gaining strength, that the bike will ever use at least. So the majority of a lug's exposed surface is about cosmetics.


The tube to tube contact doesn't care if it's surrounded by a cast, pressed, bulge formed, angle manipulated or not, or a home made lug. What the joint will care about is how well it's brazed up inside of that lug. If the lug has a loose or gap fit then the filler likely should be bronze, not silver.


When I teach this stuff I start with bronze brazing, both fillet and flowing through a sleeve (lug of sorts). One of the reasons is that when these newbies build their frame there's a likeihood that the pre brazing fit up isn't going to be that good and silver filler hates gaps (as in looses strength very quicklyas the gap grows past 0.010"). The other is that the longer they do this stuff the more they understand so much of the actual building is blacksmithy and not white lab coated. Knowing how to attach two pieces of metal with little regard to contact surfaces being best fitted is a neat skill to have. It will come into practice over and over the longer you keep at building. Andy.
Andrew R Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION