Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Framebuilders
Reload this Page >

Scary Titanium Article

Notices
Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

Scary Titanium Article

Old 12-30-17, 07:47 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Posts: 981

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix EVO 3, 2015 Trek 520, 2017 Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, 2022 Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times in 140 Posts
Scary Titanium Article

I'm not sure if this thread belongs here or in Road Cycling.


I've been considering a titanium bike for the next eighteen months. During my early research, I came across this article that claims that most titanium builders are doing a poor job with their tubes and/or their welding. The only two companies they recommended were Seven and Passoni.


Here is the article: 5 Questions To Ask Before Buying A Titanium Bike - CycleFit


I'd like to hear your experience with titanium bikes & frames, the companies that make them and the article. How true is the article? Does it look like it's just an advertisement for those two companies?
Bassmanbob is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 08:35 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,847

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1931 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 421 Posts
Not scary. Poorly written, yes.
Why are you considering Ti for the next 18 months? Not longer?
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 08:49 PM
  #3  
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,775

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,102 Times in 1,366 Posts
A terrifying advertisement
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 08:58 PM
  #4  
Newbie
 
Helolumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Jax, Florida
Posts: 16

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ti frame since 99

I’ve been riding a Ti Airborne Zepplin since 1999 and it’s still going strong. The closest I ever had to a frame problem was an alloy seat post freezing in the seat tube.

Ti is heavier than carbon frames, but I never panic when it tips over!

There are plenty of quality Ti framer builders out there today but most are turning out custom sized frames (like Seven or Firefly) and a good Ti frame can literally last you a lifetime!
Helolumpy is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 09:10 PM
  #5  
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times in 254 Posts
Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
A terrifying advertisement
Not sure who is paying for it. Def not Seven's style.

You'd think if so many Ti builders were bad, they'd call some out.



My Carver is as nice so far as my Seven...and cost a ton less for just the frame.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 10:43 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times in 3,338 Posts
Interesting that they seem to completely ignore some of the big names such as Litespeed and Lynskey. There are a lot of small builders too. Ti Cycles in Portland?

3Al-2.5V is pretty common, although I hadn't thought about different grades.

Anyway, as Marcus_Ti suggests, naming one or two manufactures as the author's favorite isn't the same as condemning everyone else.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 10:57 PM
  #7  
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,664 Times in 2,497 Posts
I think I have seen more threads about broken Lynskey/Litespeed frames than any other brand. I think it's trying to make a production bike out of a difficult material. I really don't think the custom builders have an issue with breakage. If I was in the market for a custom Ti bike, I'd probably go with Firefly or Engin. However, I have always been a believer in carbon. It's just that people don't build the carbon bike that I want, for the most part. I have been really tempted to go into carbon building.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 10:59 PM
  #8  
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times in 254 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen
I think I have seen more threads about broken Lynskey/Litespeed frames than any other brand. I think it's trying to make a production bike out of a difficult material. I really don't think the custom builders have an issue with breakage. If I was in the market for a custom Ti bike, I'd probably go with Firefly or Engin. However, I have always been a believer in carbon. It's just that people don't build the carbon bike that I want, for the most part. I have been really tempted to go into carbon building.
Probably has more to do with Lynskey/Litespeed having moved and sold more Ti frames by themselves than anyone else.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 11:20 PM
  #9  
Pokemon Master
 
Darth_Firebolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,108

Bikes: All City Cosmic Stallion, Salsa Colossal, Surly Preamble, 1985 Schwinn High Sierra x3

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Probably has more to do with Lynskey/Litespeed having moved and sold more Ti frames by themselves than anyone else.
that's a bingo.
Darth_Firebolt is offline  
Old 12-30-17, 11:32 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,830

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4745 Post(s)
Liked 3,861 Times in 2,510 Posts
I ride 2 Ti Cycles customs. They are a builder that has been around nearly as long as the two of that article. The primary builder there has been there the entire time and had a hand with every frame so he knows very well what works and what doesn't. He is also an engineer with serious machining skills. I suspect they have good sources to get quality raw material despite not turning out huge volumes as he has been doing this for so long. And they have had their hand in repairs a long time, both steel and ti. They get to see what doesn't work.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 12:14 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,825
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,457 Times in 950 Posts
I've warrantied a cracked Seven. No product has a perfect 0 failure rate.

I think the goal of the article is to damage Chinese production companies like Habenero and Bikes Direct, as well as multi-material shops like, strangely, Seven, IF, Hampsten and Litespeed. The American craft makers are buying quality tubes and milling it themselves. Some might be buying pre-butted tubes from Reynolds or someone else doing things the right way.

Specific to the article, no one makes bikes out of CP. That's a red herring.
Kontact is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 12:23 AM
  #12  
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,664 Times in 2,497 Posts
I think there is a distinction to be made between individuals building under their own name and shops with hourly workers. But maybe that's just my prejudice. Personally, it's worth it to get a bike made by one of the individuals, otherwise I might just go to China. Most of the Chinese Ti frames seem to be pretty solid.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 12:33 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times in 3,338 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen
I think there is a distinction to be made between individuals building under their own name and shops with hourly workers. But maybe that's just my prejudice. Personally, it's worth it to get a bike made by one of the individuals, otherwise I might just go to China. Most of the Chinese Ti frames seem to be pretty solid.
But where do you make the distinction?

Is it ok to have one employee? Ten employees? Primary framebuilder must be majority owner?

What if the previous owner/generation retires, and a new generation takes over?

10 frames a year? 100 frames a year? 1000 frames a year?

There are some awfully good welders for hire out there.

I think even some of the Asian companies are relatively small companies. Do they count?
CliffordK is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 12:49 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,825
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,457 Times in 950 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen
I think there is a distinction to be made between individuals building under their own name and shops with hourly workers. But maybe that's just my prejudice. Personally, it's worth it to get a bike made by one of the individuals, otherwise I might just go to China. Most of the Chinese Ti frames seem to be pretty solid.
Seven has hourly workers. Seven makes frames out of other materials. It is remarkable that Seven is a recommendation when everything about them is against the advice of the article.
Kontact is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 05:22 AM
  #15  
don't try this at home.
 
rm -rf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,918
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times in 343 Posts
Whew, I was worried that my Ti bike might have neurotoxins. At least I don't have to worry about that.

So....
These guys are ex racers and bike fitters. Oh, they sell bikes too? Let's see what types they sell. Hmm, Trek, Seven, Passoni, ...
rm -rf is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 07:22 AM
  #16  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,460
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3638 Post(s)
Liked 5,315 Times in 2,700 Posts
Like everyone else here, I have no personal expertise and am just repeating what I have read. My understanding is that ti is less forgiving to the artisan builder and that there are some advantages to a more standardized/ industrial production. I do know that prior to Litespeed, the Lynskey operation was building ti products for the chemical industry and possibly aerospace. They certainly have the knowledge and experience but it's unknown how careful they choose to be with bike production. I am perfectly satisfied with my Lynskey and don't have any way of knowing if it could have been built any better. I have friends who are happy with Moots, Sevens and Serottas. The only failures I've seen were a Moots stem and a Serotta where the carbon seatstays separated.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 07:28 AM
  #17  
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times in 254 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Like everyone else here, I have no personal expertise and am just repeating what I have read. My understanding is that ti is less forgiving to the artisan builder and that there are some advantages to a more standardized/ industrial production. I do know that prior to Litespeed, the Lynskey operation was building ti products for the chemical industry and possibly aerospace. They certainly have the knowledge and experience but it's unknown how careful they choose to be with bike production. I am perfectly satisfied with my Lynskey and don't have any way of knowing if it could have been built any better. I have friends who are happy with Moots, Sevens and Serottas. The only failures I've seen were a Moots stem and a Serotta where the carbon seatstays separated.
Litespeed had issues back in the day..in part because they were using insanely light butted tubing (IIRC with very low weight limits on the rider), resulting in frames about as stiff as a spaghetti noodle. Not surprising they'd crack over time. Then they sold their company off, and went all-in on carbon....and are only now going back to what made them their name.


Many of those bonded ti-carbon hybrid-material frames had failures at the join over time IIRC.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 08:19 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Not surprising at all that a retailer, who sells those two brands, would write an advertisement that says those brands are the best.
dsaul is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 08:49 AM
  #19  
don't try this at home.
 
rm -rf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,918
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times in 343 Posts
A lot of local riders have Lynskey bikes. A couple had cracks -- one in a chainstay tube, not at the weld. Lynskey fixed them under warranty. No other problems that I've heard of. Buying from a company with a decent warranty record is always good, for any type of bike.

Locally, I've seen maybe 3 or 4 Ti bikes that weren't Lynskey, and probably 20+ Lynskeys.

Last edited by rm -rf; 12-31-17 at 08:53 AM.
rm -rf is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 11:51 AM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,825
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,457 Times in 950 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Like everyone else here, I have no personal expertise and am just repeating what I have read. My understanding is that ti is less forgiving to the artisan builder and that there are some advantages to a more standardized/ industrial production. I do know that prior to Litespeed, the Lynskey operation was building ti products for the chemical industry and possibly aerospace. They certainly have the knowledge and experience but it's unknown how careful they choose to be with bike production. I am perfectly satisfied with my Lynskey and don't have any way of knowing if it could have been built any better. I have friends who are happy with Moots, Sevens and Serottas. The only failures I've seen were a Moots stem and a Serotta where the carbon seatstays separated.
Unless the artisan builder is trying to butt or make seamed tubing themselves, there is nothing about making a Ti frame solo that should cause the bike to fail. Good welds come from cleanliness, and anybody can manage that.
Kontact is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 01:08 PM
  #21  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,460
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3638 Post(s)
Liked 5,315 Times in 2,700 Posts
Originally Posted by Kontact
Unless the artisan builder is trying to butt or make seamed tubing themselves, there is nothing about making a Ti frame solo that should cause the bike to fail. Good welds come from cleanliness, and anybody can manage that.
I'll certainly defer to your expertise. As I said, just repeating what I've read. I've never welded a frame of any sort, much less ti!
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 01:20 PM
  #22  
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,460
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3638 Post(s)
Liked 5,315 Times in 2,700 Posts
Originally Posted by rm -rf
A lot of local riders have Lynskey bikes. A couple had cracks -- one in a chainstay tube, not at the weld. Lynskey fixed them under warranty. No other problems that I've heard of. Buying from a company with a decent warranty record is always good, for any type of bike.

Locally, I've seen maybe 3 or 4 Ti bikes that weren't Lynskey, and probably 20+ Lynskeys.
Surprisingly, they aren't as popular here in Nashville as I would expect, considering we are almost local. I know probably 10 riders with Lynskeys and about twice that who have Moots. Just guessing, but before they were available online, Lynskey were only sold here through a shop owned by a guy with a reputation as a complete *******. That may have quashed initial enthusiasm.
.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 01:32 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Posts: 981

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix EVO 3, 2015 Trek 520, 2017 Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, 2022 Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times in 140 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
Not scary. Poorly written, yes.
Why are you considering Ti for the next 18 months? Not longer?


Sorry. It's my fault; I worded the sentence poorly. I'm considering purchasing a titanium bike or frame in the next 18 months, not just to ride for 18 months.
Bassmanbob is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 01:36 PM
  #24  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Posts: 981

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix EVO 3, 2015 Trek 520, 2017 Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, 2022 Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times in 140 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK
Interesting that they seem to completely ignore some of the big names such as Litespeed and Lynskey. There are a lot of small builders too. Ti Cycles in Portland?

3Al-2.5V is pretty common, although I hadn't thought about different grades.

Anyway, as Marcus_Ti suggests, naming one or two manufactures as the author's favorite isn't the same as condemning everyone else.


While I agree with your last statement, the article stated that most Ti builders are doing a poor job. They only recommended the two previously mentioned, so to me, it gave the impression that the only two good Ti frame builders were Seven and Passoni.
Bassmanbob is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 01:42 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Treasure Coast, FL
Posts: 981

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix EVO 3, 2015 Trek 520, 2017 Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, 2022 Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 267 Times in 140 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK
But where do you make the distinction?

Is it ok to have one employee? Ten employees? Primary framebuilder must be majority owner?

What if the previous owner/generation retires, and a new generation takes over?

10 frames a year? 100 frames a year? 1000 frames a year?

There are some awfully good welders for hire out there.

I think even some of the Asian companies are relatively small companies. Do they count?


Your post includes most of my questions. Perhaps I should start a new thread after this one runs its course with the title: Which Ti builders have the best reputation and craftsmanship?
Bassmanbob is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.