Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Framebuilders
Reload this Page >

Small down tube bulge- danger?

Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

Small down tube bulge- danger?

Old 04-03-19, 05:54 PM
  #1  
samkl 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 277

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Small down tube bulge- danger?

Just received my “dream frame” in the mail, a used Rivendell. I’m just amazed at the quality—and was in the midst of falling in love with it when I noticed the following, a small bulge in the downtube near the headtube, which I’d think indicates crash damage. The fork is not bent, though. (Maybe that’s because it’s a pretty lightweight frame?)

The aesthetics aren’t a big concern, since you can’t even see it—but is it a structural issue? I plan to use this bike for brevets so I want something very reliable.

samkl is offline  
Old 04-03-19, 05:56 PM
  #2  
Aubergine 
Bad example
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 771 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 14 Posts
You are right, that is crash damage, but it looks minor. If the fork is straight I would build it and ride it.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Aubergine is offline  
Old 04-03-19, 07:00 PM
  #3  
wsteve464
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
If you do keep it the way it is put some clear nail polish on the bulge to cover the crack in the paint and keep water out.
wsteve464 is offline  
Old 04-03-19, 10:23 PM
  #4  
samkl 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 277

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
One more:
samkl is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 05:22 AM
  #5  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 32 Posts
I assume you bought it with this undisclosed? Somebody hit something hard enough that they knew it. People say that it's not uncommon for just the frame or fork to bend and not the other. Not sure I have seen that myself. This damage did not result from a high speed into a wall sort of crash, it was somewhat less serious than that.

I don't ride anything that I don't have complete confidence in. Especially on brevets, where my mood can get rather dark at times. Bikes make noises. I recall stopping to inspect another rider's bike for cracks on a fleche at 6:30 am after having ridden since the previous morning. Of course there weren't any, but his bike was making a noise that had convinced him there was. OTOH, I saw a crack on another rider's bike before PBP and didn't tell him because I didn't want to ruin his ride. It was on a waterford seat stay join, and probably half of them out there are cracked without their owners knowing it.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 08:39 AM
  #6  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I made a bicycle for a customer that had some kind of front end crash. It isn't obvious that there is a bulge under the head lugs until you look closely but when I rode it after the crash, its ride was certainly diminished. I'd be surprised if the fork blades aren't bent back some or they have been aligned again after the crash. If it was me and this damage was not revealed before money was exchanged I would demand a refund. It is the most likely reason the previous owner wanted to get rid of it.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 08:40 AM
  #7  
David Tollefson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 122

Bikes: Many... Up to 9 in the stable now

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
If it were me, and that damage was undisclosed, it would be going right back to the seller.
David Tollefson is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 04:35 PM
  #8  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Check the fork. Even though it may look unbent, check it anyway. Steerer may be off and blades just fine. Will need a table and tools to do this properly.
TiHabanero is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 07:11 PM
  #9  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,368
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8524 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 74 Posts
Go ahead and put the fork in place (centering it?), and take a direct side view of the whole frame. So we can see the angles.

I'd ask around your local shops to see if one has the Park HTS-1 tool, and see if you can stretch out the frame slightly.

CliffordK is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 11:19 PM
  #10  
samkl 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 277

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Go ahead and put the fork in place (centering it?), and take a direct side view of the whole frame. So we can see the angles.

I'd ask around your local shops to see if one has the Park HTS-1 tool, and see if you can stretch out the frame slightly.

I'll try to do that tomorrow, though there's no headset in there so I don't think the fork will stay in place.

I'm inclined to send it back to the seller. Even if I find a shop with that tool, I'm not convinced that there won't be a weak spot in the frame after they stretch it out. But if you have reason to disagree I'd be happy to hear it.

I would guess this ripple won't be a problem for many years, though I'm no expert. But like unterhausen said, it gives me a thing to worry about, and I'd really prefer not to worry about my frame crumpling if I hit a bump at 45mph.

The seller was the second owner, by the way, and says he didn't know about the damage. He's offered a full refund. Disappointing because it's a stunningly beautiful frame, and very lightweight too.
samkl is offline  
Old 04-04-19, 11:42 PM
  #11  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,424

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2029 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 82 Posts
That's such a small ripple, I doubt the tool could get it any straighter. Good on the seller for offering to make it right.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 04-05-19, 06:48 AM
  #12  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 32 Posts
I am not sure we had that exact tool back in the '70s when I worked as a mechanic. I never had a lot of success with the one we had. I never used it on a bike like this though, only fairly heavy ones. But I'm not sure there is any reason for the buckle to straighten out on this frame.

Makes you wonder how many riders say that they have a bike but they didn't really like the way it rode and the real reason was that it had some damage like this. You could easily have built it up and never noticed, and just not liked the bike. Although it would lower the trail, so you might like it better.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 04-05-19, 03:32 PM
  #13  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,398

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6839 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 217 Times in 180 Posts
To get something Unblemished you should just buy New.


In a quest to save money. you got someone else's problems..
fietsbob is online now  
Old 04-05-19, 09:07 PM
  #14  
samkl 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 277

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
To get something Unblemished you should just buy New.


In a quest to save money. you got someone else's problems..
Oh Bob. I’m fine with blemishes, but not structural damage.
samkl is offline  
Old 04-05-19, 09:47 PM
  #15  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,424

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2029 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Originally Posted by samkl View Post
Oh Bob. I’m fine with blemishes, but not structural damage.
To Bob's point, this is probably somewhere in between. Especially if the ripple is in the thicker part of the butted tube. I crashed my Bianchi Eros years ago, bent it up, and had my LBS straighten it out with their HTS-1. Even with their best efforts, it's way more wrinkly than your frame. I've put another 5,000+ miles on it and it's anyone's guess whether it will last indefinitely or crack.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 04-06-19, 12:34 AM
  #16  
samkl 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 277

Bikes: 2004 Trek 520, 1990 Miyata 1000, 1987 Cannondale SR400 AKA Prairie Chicken, 2017 Xootr Swift

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
To Bob's point, this is probably somewhere in between. Especially if the ripple is in the thicker part of the butted tube. I crashed my Bianchi Eros years ago, bent it up, and had my LBS straighten it out with their HTS-1. Even with their best efforts, it's way more wrinkly than your frame. I've put another 5,000+ miles on it and it's anyone's guess whether it will last indefinitely or crack.
Hm. This is a real emotional roller coaster. I think I'm going to take it to a shop tomorrow to get a professional opinion. Hopefully that'll settle it and I can move forward, one way or another.
samkl is offline  
Old 04-06-19, 05:41 AM
  #17  
mikeread
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Even though the ripple can hardly be seen and the bike is probably fine to ride, you will always know the damage is there.

For me, I would never be happy with the frame and would never fully appreciate it. Send it back and find a good one.
mikeread is offline  
Old 04-06-19, 09:12 AM
  #18  
Dean51 
Senior Member
 
Dean51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Posts: 388

Bikes: '82 YKonno Allez, ~'80 Ron Cooper, '87 Ciocc Designer 84, '77 Schwinn Volare, '86 Tommasini Racing, Ciocc Mockba 80, '98 S-Works Hardtail Mtn., Nishiki Int'l Singlespeed

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
I took a chance on a Ciocc Mockba 80 a few years ago that had been in a "front ender". First clue was there was no fork offered with the frame. The bulge on the downtube was a bit less than the OP's and the bulge on the top tube was barely noticeable at all. Once I had it home, I measured the head tube angle at 76.5 degrees vs. Ciocc's spec of 75. I was concerned about how that bike may handle with the head tube this steep.

I was fortunate to find a frame builder nearby with a homemade version of the Park "straightening" tool. As he applied pressure to the frame, he gently tapped the top and downtube bulges with a small ball peen hammer. He repeated this cycle of adding more pressure and tapping on the bulges several times. $15 later, the bulges were barely visible and the head tube was just a hair over 75 degrees. I filled the hammer marks with spot putty and primer, then touched up the paint.

I'll spare you the tale of how I came up with a fork that matches Ciocc's spec for this bike, but I'll offer that the handling is great and I have no concerns about it's structural integrity. I ride pants of this bike!

Dean
__________________
Roll Me Up and Smoke Me When I Die
Dean51 is offline  
Old 04-06-19, 09:58 AM
  #19  
8aaron8
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Stockton CA
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Can I ask where this bike came from (state wise)? I had someone bring me this exact frame with similar damage asking how much it would cost to replace the tubes and repaint. If memory serves the one I saw also had top tube damage and the fork was out of alignment.
8aaron8 is offline  
Old 04-06-19, 11:58 AM
  #20  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,424

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2029 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Originally Posted by samkl View Post
Hm. This is a real emotional roller coaster. I think I'm going to take it to a shop tomorrow to get a professional opinion. Hopefully that'll settle it and I can move forward, one way or another.
No judgment from me if you elect to take the refund and send it back. Plenty more fish in the sea.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 04-07-19, 03:07 PM
  #21  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,398

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6839 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 217 Times in 180 Posts
Hitting a parking stop block at night, unseen, across a lane in the street recently converted to parking,
I did that sort of bend myself , after continued riding it cracked right where that sort of bulge was..


I have better lights now
fietsbob is online now  
Old 04-07-19, 04:08 PM
  #22  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,368
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8524 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 74 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Hitting a parking stop block at night, unseen, across a lane in the street recently converted to parking,
I did that sort of bend myself , after continued riding it cracked right where that sort of bulge was..
I've seen a few head tube, and head tube lug cracks posted on Bike Forums. In most cases, they appear to be related to previous damage to the frame. Some riders get many miles out of the damaged frames, some inevitably get failures.

I can't say if repairs help (or would have helped).

The bulge primarily on the downtube, and not on the top tube, may well put the head tube under stress, so a repair may help alleviate that stress.

This bulge above seems closer to the head tube than I would otherwise expect.

I have to wonder if the butted end of the downtube is shorter than it should be.

It could well be that this was a building flaw, cutting the butted end too short, and putting the heat affected area of the tube in thin tubing.

For an original owner, there may be an argument of a warranty defect despite the damage.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 04-07-19, 04:18 PM
  #23  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 32 Posts
I'm sure it's built properly. That bulge is in the heat affected zone. I build mine to go, not to stop (particularly suddenly, by hitting a stationary object). Thin tubing is going to bend eventually. We don't know what the rider hit, since it is lost to history

There is someone that bought an ultrasonic tester to measure tubing thickness. If the eventual owner of that frame wanted to know butt lengths, he could find out for them
unterhausen is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Damien1993
Classic & Vintage
7
05-23-19 05:37 PM
stringmaster
Bicycle Mechanics
2
04-29-16 06:50 AM
FDHESQ
Bicycle Mechanics
6
02-21-15 06:52 PM
Seattle_Jerry
Classic & Vintage
5
03-28-09 11:13 AM
Granny Gear
Bicycle Mechanics
1
11-02-03 06:03 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.