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Frame fixture

Old 10-13-19, 02:55 PM
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1kosmos1
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Frame fixture

Where to buy Frame fixture?And also the second tool for building a frame?
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Old 10-13-19, 07:12 PM
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Framebuilding Suppliers This thread has some good sources to start with. There's Craig's List, E Bay then various frame building facebook and forum's for sale listings.

Where are you? And, what we all want to know, what's the second tool for building? Andy (who thinks a bench vise is right up there too)
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Old 10-13-19, 09:33 PM
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https://www.brewracingframes.com/bic...fork-jigs.html

Frame Fixture |

https://thebicycleacademy.org/produc...me-fixture-kit

https://benchmarkjig.weebly.com/

or

Google Arctos frame jig and get ideas to make your own, The aluminum extrusion and the parts to connect it together are available through McMaster Carr, The cones are available through

https://www.chopsource.com/bicycle-f...ive-cones.html

Get a carpenters chop saw and a metal blade for accurate cuts and almost perfect straight cuts.

or access to a great machine shop.

#2

BF thread on torches

Brazing Outfit Recommendations?

Good Luck
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Old 10-14-19, 06:16 AM
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Those motorcycle fixture cones may seem like a good choice, if you don't have access to a lathe, but they are difficult to mount and secure on a home built frame jig. It just creates a new problem of how to mount a 3/4" shaft on your home built jig and the cones will need set screws or the addition of a shaft clamp to hold them in place. The other issue with those specific cones is the bore being .760 to fit on a .750 shaft. That is a really sloppy fit.

If anyone needs cones for their frame fixture, contact me and I can make something to work for your application. You could also contact Alex Meade to have him make you some parts for your frame fixtures.

As for the extrusions, 80/20 sells direct to customers and they will cut your extrusions to length for you. https://8020.net/shop
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Old 10-14-19, 10:48 AM
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OP might be talking about a fork fixture?

Misumi does a nice job with extrusions.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
This thread has some good sources to start with. There's Craig's List, E Bay then various frame building facebook and forum's for sale listings.

Where are you? And, what we all want to know, what's the second tool for building? Andy (who thinks a bench vise is right up there too)

Ukraine.
Tool for adjusting the frame after welding?
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Old 10-16-19, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 1kosmos1 View Post
Ukraine.
Tool for adjusting the frame after welding?
Do we know each other and I don't recognize you from your screen name? The fixtures I have laser cut and etched out of stainless steel I have made in Ukraine. A variety of people including engineers have helped me design these over the years. There are several versions with some having more features (we say "bells and whistles") and cost more. Of course they are much cheaper to manufacture in Ukraine than in the US. One of our former translator's dad is the part owner of a company that makes laser cutters. There have been a couple of Ukrainian amateur builders that have visited me at our frame/bicycle shop on a college campus in Bucha just west of Kyiv. We do a project to provide utility type of bicycles to pastors that work near the Russian border.

The flat table we use in Bucha for frame alignment was also made by the same company.
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Old 10-18-19, 06:21 PM
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BRINGHELI I have his fork jig but not the frame jig.
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Old 10-18-19, 10:29 PM
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1Kosmos1, my made in Ukraine fixture is laser cut and etched out of stainless steel flat stock. The pieces (that represent each tube) look like a full-scale drawing. They allow me to design a frame as well as spot braze it together. It sits on my flat table so the alignment of the frame is based on the table and not on the fixture itself. This greatly reduces its cost and increases accuracy. The concept for my fixture is based on how frames were built in the UK in the classic era (before and after WWII). I donít go out of my way to market them but they are for sale. It makes me very happy and it may or may not do the same for others.

Some of its features include hex pieces (they have 6 sides) that when 2 are turned and placed together in a certain combination represents the fork rake measurement and bottom bracket drop. That makes a certain distance easy to set. On my more complicated fixture there is also another scale to show bottom bracket drop as well. My fixture has angle markings for the seat and head tube. The T square in the middle levels the top tube or with the 1ļ, 2ļ and 6ļ angle pieces can slop the top tube to any degree. The bigger T square is for setting the seat tube angle when a seat post and saddle are held in the fixture. It shows how much set back the nose of the saddle has from the center of the bottom bracket. If I place a stem in the customerís position on the fixture, that allows me to set the front end of the frame to match his 3 contact points. On the vertical center post is something to indicate how much straddle height the top of the top tube has from the ground. It is set to a wheelís radius. The V blocks can move the 3 main tubes up and down to establish alignment with the spinner wheels underneath them. They have markings to show every 1/10 of a mm movement. It doesnít look heavy but it weighs 25 kilos. The measurement of each tube is marked by 1mm increments. There isnít much need for a ruler except to establish where the bottom of the head tube is in relation to the center of the front wheel. There is no need to use trigonometry.

One feature I like about the way I design a frame on this fixture is that because it is life size I can see if everything looks proportional. I can place the actual stem and saddle in the customerís position and see if there are too many stackers or stem extension or whatever.

I visit Ukraine about once a year. Often I teach a 1 week framebuilding class at the same time. Let me know if you have any interest in a fixture made in your country.
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Old 10-20-19, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Let me know if you have any interest in a fixture made in your country.
The main interest is that the quality is good!
And another question and how to weld the frame on the other side? If one side is half welded use the frame fixture not necessarily?
Is there enough space to get into the space between the frame and the fixture during welding?

Last edited by 1kosmos1; 10-20-19 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 10-20-19, 06:37 PM
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Completing brazing, or welding, after initial tacking/pinning while the frame is still in the jig is not the usual process. So no surprise when a jig is made by a very experienced guy and it has no back side access, it doesn't need it. Most builders will hold the tacked/pinned frame out of the jig during final joining. Access is greatest and induced errors from the jig are reduced.

Remember that the jig is to speed up construction and help maintain the angular relationships between tubes, NOT to control tracking alignment. Andy
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Old 10-21-19, 10:12 PM
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Your answer raises more questions: 1. What kind of frames do you want to make and how many do you hope to produce? 2. Do you want to tig weld or braze your frames? 3. Are you just beginning to plan on building frames or do you have some experience?

My fixture is primarily designed to make custom steel frames one at a time. It is convenient to design the frame on the fixture and also check the accuracy of the miters. Most hobbyists put frames together by brazing with silver or bronze because it requires less equipment and training. They can make a good frame by taking more time. Tig welding is popular with professional builders because it is a fast and good way to put frames together. This method requires more elaborate and expensive machinery. The frames we make in Ukraine are mostly brass (actually bronze) brazed but are also silver brazed some places.

There are a variety of ways to build a frame. For example some builders make sub assemblies first (like putting the down tube and head tube together) and then combine the sub assemblies to make a complete frame. Others hold most of the frame tubes in a fixture and spot braze them together before brazing it into a complete frame outside of the fixture. How we choose to build a frame is based on how we learned and what equipment we use.

Like Andy says, most builders do not weld or braze a joint completely in a fixture. It is difficult to move the fixture to the best brazing or welding position at all times. It is much easier to move the frame while brazing when it is not held in a fixture. What we do is put a small spot (or spots) braze to hold the joint together and then braze (or weld) it free outside of the fixture. In between the spot brazing and complete brazing is an alignment check to make sure the tubes are in the same plane (not crooked on each other). This is the reason for the flat table. My fixture is designed to only spot braze a frame together because I donít want to braze an entire frame in a fixture. There are some builders who will braze or weld a frame while it is held in a fixture (typically this is an upright fixture). I am not one of them. Sometimes on the rear triangle, I will braze a complete joint while it is in the fixture (for example brazing a seat stay to a dropout).

If a fixture is free standing it needs to be very accurately made. This can greatly increase the cost. The accuracy of my fixture is based on the flat table it lays on. This increases its accuracy and decreases its cost. I can easily adjust the position of the tubes up or down so they are all in the same plane based on the flat table and not dependent on the fixture.

The laser cutting and etching on my fixture is very well done. I had it made out of 5mm stainless steel flat stock instead of 6mm because it is Ĺ the cost. My fixture reflects they way I think and design and build frames. It works very well for me but it is not for everyone. This is why I asked you questions about your framebuilding plans. I can provide instructions in Ukraine about how to use the fixture and answer questions on how I build frames.
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Old 10-23-19, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Your answer raises more questions: 1. What kind of frames do you want to make and how many do you hope to produce? 2. Do you want to tig weld or braze your frames? 3. Are you just beginning to plan on building frames or do you have some experience?.

I only plan. I am looking for information and tools and I still do not know how much cost and how to order tube Columbus. I want to do touring bikes. Also learn how to make a business plan.
Therefore, everything is still in the stage of ideas and searches.


"Doug Fattic" Are you from Ukraine?
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Old 10-23-19, 04:19 PM
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These guys sell Columbus tubing in England

https://www.framebuilding.com/

In the USA

https://framebuildersupply.com/
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Old 10-24-19, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 1kosmos1 View Post
I only plan. I am looking for information and tools and I still do not know how much cost and how to order tube Columbus. I want to do touring bikes. Also learn how to make a business plan. Therefore, everything is still in the stage of ideas and searches. Doug Fattic, are you from Ukraine?
No, I donít have any personal connection to Ukraine except for the charity bicycle project we do that started with buying bicycles from the XB3 Company in Kharkov and eventually making the frames ourselves in Bucha. It started with a request for bicycles from my university alma mater where I got my degrees so I could be certified to teach high school. My framebuilding shop and school are located in Niles, Michigan. I go to Ukraine about once a year to work on this project. During the few weeks that I am there I usually teach a one-week framebuilding class. Most of those students come from Western Europe.

Of course you already know that your business plan should include the price of equipment and all the other expenses that go with running a business. Part of that plan will involve your cost of training. There are a number of decisions that will affect your plan. For example will you be making one-off custom bicycles that will be more expensive or make them in batches to standard sizes with perhaps being able to have a few custom options like color and braze-on bits? It is cheaper and faster to tig weld the frames but that will require more expensive equipment and more training and practice. It will be challenging to figure out your income until you have some actual experience.

My advice would be to learn the basics of how a frame goes together by making one yourself. This is why most students take one of my classes. It allows them to see if they have the necessary skills (not everyone does just like not everyone can play sports well) and also if they have a sustainable interest. They may have the skills to do it but donít enjoy the work. Of course it is difficult to start a business if you donít have enough money. This will take a minimum of $5000 and more realistically $10,000 or more. And then you can better calculate how fast you can make frames in order to make a profit.
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Old 10-25-19, 08:47 AM
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I'll add to Doug's great advice in that many builders find that the time to actually make the frame is the smallest portion of running their business. The, often, majority of time is spent acquiring new customers, communicating with customers, doing the bookwork, designing frames (and tools), maintaining the shop, ordering and receiving parts, packing and shipping off stuff and many other mundane activities. So if you find that you can build a frame a week and your business plan calls for 50 frames a year to make your income you're going to get no sleep or not make any money as you'll fall way behind your needed production rate.

This reality of what it takes to run a profitable business is lost on many when just starting out. This is one reason why we see so many slightly used jigs for sale (given the number of new jigs sold is tiny). People start with an initial capital fund that, generally, is spent soon and the need to eat and pay for housing (let alone health care or fun) rears it's ugly head.

I remember a grand dad of US frame building say that the number of people who pay for their lives with their building is far less then the number of people who claim to be builders. So just like the retail bike business a budding builder might want to have a successful spouse to fall back on Andy
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Old 10-28-19, 12:59 PM
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Will be brazing reliable for a touring bike?
For example with and without lugs?
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Old 10-28-19, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 1kosmos1 View Post
Will be brazing reliable for a touring bike?
For example with and without lugs?
Yes as long it is done right. Buy a book on frame building, watch some youtube videos maybe even take a class/workshop then practice practice practice. Its not that hard it just takes practice
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Old 10-28-19, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 1kosmos1 View Post
Will be brazing reliable for a touring bike?
For example with and without lugs?
Brazing with lugs or fillet brazing with brass has been the standard to make any kind of steel frame including touring bikes for decades. With proper technique your chance of failure is very small. In my opinion it also looks the best.

Don't try and learn on your own if you want to start a business. That method is maybe okay if building a frame is just a hobby and you are the only one going to ride the bicycle. However as soon as you sell a product to someone else you have to make sure that your very 1st sale represents a high standard of quality that years later you will not be ashamed it still exists. And you have to be positive it will not break. Mistakes like designing the frame wrong can ruin your reputation which is very hard to correct.
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Old 10-31-19, 09:21 AM
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1kosmos1, Iíll continue my educational series on the steps I use to build custom frames with my Ukrainian made fixture so you can get a better idea of what you may eventually want to do. I build one-off custom frames designed to fit just one customer. To begin I put the customer/student on a stationary adjustable fitting bicycle. The seat is adjusted for height (which helps determines frame size) and setback (which determines seat angle). Next the position of the handlebars is determined. How far away it is from the nose of the saddle and how much drop it has compared to the seat (subtract the height of the bars from the height of the top of the saddle) can also be found pedaling the fitting bicycle. This handlebar placement is probably a compromise between biomechanical and aerodynamic efficiency and comfort.

To design a frame I put the saddle and stem the customer wants to use in the same position found on the fitting bicycle on my fixture. That is the reason for extra fixture pieces so I can place them on the fixture easily and conveniently. Now I move the pieces that represent the tubes to match the stem and saddle. Other factors like how much bottom bracket drop, head angle and fork rake are chosen. It is important to me that I am able to see life size everything is in proportion (it looks right). For example that there is the right amount of seatpost showing and there are not too many/too few headset stackers or quill stem extension. In my forty some years of building frames I have not built 2 custom frames exactly the same. Even people with very similar body measurements can sit in a different position on a bicycle. This is why I use a fitting bicycle more than measuring a person to design their frame.

Of course it is much faster to build frames in groups. This probably means there is some compromise for the customer because they adjust themselves to fit the bicycle (instead of the frame adjusting to them). Decreasing manufacturer time may increase profits (or lower the price). One way to customize a semi-production frame is let the customer choose his colors and perhaps braze-on bits. Other jobs a custom builder can do to make money is make custom racks and stems.
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Old 11-05-19, 08:04 AM
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I want to make 4-5 frames before selling to learn.
Now I make a list of the tool and later on parts I will buy.
I will be working on a basic job and apart from decorating the workshop.
Such is a rough plan.
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Old 11-10-19, 08:41 AM
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1Kosmos1, this is blatant advertisement I donít normally do but since we both have a Ukrainian connection, what I am going to suggest I think makes sense. One of your best options to learn how to build frames is to take a one-week class from me at our frame shop in Bucha, Ukraine (about 25km west of Kiev). It is located on a college campus that has a cafeteria and dormitories. There are plenty of places to stay and eat off campus too. Yuriy is the Ukrainian in charge of the shop and of course knows how to build frames and speaks Russian in case English is a problem. We can find interpreters too. You could continue learning from him after I leave for another week or two. The shop has all the tools (including my Ukrainian made fixture as well as an American made Anvil fixture) necessary to build frames and would be a perfect introduction to what you need to do to make frames in Ukraine. This training is not free of course. That one week would cost you $1000 American. Continuing your training a week or 2 more with Yuriy afterwards would be an extra cost but cheaper. The price of the Ukrainian fixture (if you wanted one) would depend on how many accessories you got with it but could be priced.in grivna. In the United States the price starts at $1000. Some of the frame materials (like the fork crown and front dropouts) are laser cut in Ukraine. Those expenses are beyond the cost of the class and vary according to your choices and could be anywhere from $200 to $500. If you just wanted to train instead of making a frame for yourself (to save money) we can build one of our Ukrainian frames in class instead.

It makes sense to fillet braze the main triangle of your frame together with Bronze. That way you could avoid the expense of lugs. However if you wanted to learn how build with lugs instead that is possible. I can bring all the frame materials for you to make a custom touring frame in class.

Just so you know I learned how to build frames in England in 1975 where the master builders were located after World War II. Americans did not yet have a tradition of making custom frames back then. I was a high school teacher at the time and my purpose for learning was to be able to teach framebuilding in the States (where it was a new). I have taught framebuilding classes for over 40 years. We started our charity bicycle project in Ukraine in 2000. I go once or twice a year to continue this project. The frames are made in our Bucha workshop. Let me know if you are interested so a schedule can be arraigned.

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Old 11-12-19, 05:20 PM
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I will mean that there is an opportunity to learn to build frames in Ukraine.
But now I have no opportunity to study.
I was planning to start doing something in a year, now I am working on a theoretical base and am collecting resources.
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