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Any Framebuilder familiar with this Track Frame?

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Any Framebuilder familiar with this Track Frame?

Old 10-14-20, 09:26 AM
  #1  
berkleydriskill
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Any Framebuilder familiar with this Track Frame?

I had originally posted this in "Classic & vintage" but was advised that maybe posting here would warrant better results...
I just purchased a used frame from an elderly gentleman off of Craigslist. I was looking for an affordable track frame to complete my build using leftover new stock components I had from 2 previous builds. At $75 I felt it was a good buy. Upon further investigation, I think I may have stumbled on an incredible find. The frame appears (by some frame components) to be Italian but the frame is not marked by any manufacturer or serial number. There are no markings or labels of any kind aside from the Brev Campagnolo stamps on the rear dropouts. Based on the fork I would assume that the frame was built late 50s early 1960s due to the sand-cast Davis fork-crown which was available in 1958-1960. Being the wealth of knowledge that all of you are, do you have any clue what bike this is and its true worth. I'd hate to put cheap components on it and sell it to later find out I had something truly special. Any advice you can give would be much appreciated.
*I plan to take better photos (white backdrop) this weekend but was hoping these attached photos might provide a little info.
Thanks so much!
Being a newbie it won't let me attach photos or a link. Please copy and paste the following to view images of the frame. i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h
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Old 10-14-20, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by berkleydriskill View Post
Based on the fork I would assume that the frame was built late 50s early 1960s due to the sand-cast Davis fork-crown which was available in 1958-1960.
That crown was still available as late as mid-'80s, though they were starting to look a bit old-fashioned by then.. We used maybe 10-15 of them over about 5 years at the shop I worked at ('79-'84), and I have three of them at the moment. I doubt those were leftovers "in the pipeline" since 1960 – they must have been made up into the late '70s at least.

Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.


We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.

Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.

What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)

Mark B in Seattle
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Old 10-14-20, 02:12 PM
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i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h

I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
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Old 10-15-20, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h

I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
Oh no, that's disheartening.
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Old 10-15-20, 11:34 AM
  #5  
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Ok 10 posts down, here are the pictures



Photo of complete setup taken by previous owner


Here is the only stamp I have found on the frame

Pretty sure the binder bolt isn't original

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Old 10-15-20, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
That crown was still available as late as mid-'80s, though they were starting to look a bit old-fashioned by then.. We used maybe 10-15 of them over about 5 years at the shop I worked at ('79-'84), and I have three of them at the moment. I doubt those were leftovers "in the pipeline" since 1960 – they must have been made up into the late '70s at least.

Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.


We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.

Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.

What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)

Mark B in Seattle

Wow, thanks so much for all the info. The only other piece of information I have been able to come up with was from the previous owner. Prior to him purchasing the frame 20+ years ago, it was powder-coated in Boston. I know that doesn't really help determine anything, but it's at least something new I had learned. No, I do not know which type of bottom bracket threads they are. I have not yet removed the sealed cartridge bottom-bracket that is currently installed just yet. I plan to this weekend. I am aware that reverse threaded bottom brackets on the non-drive side would eliminate the possibility of either a French or Italian bottom-bracket threading, but that is about the extent of my knowledge. How would you recommend me determining the threading aside from that? BTW I do not own a caliper for exact measurements.


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Old 10-15-20, 07:35 PM
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After removing the current BB a test fitting of a know threading one will give a lot of data.

Do I see partially collapsed seat lug ears? Andy
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Old 10-17-20, 02:22 PM
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Looks like a 1970's Chas. Roberts frame from England. Only thing missing is the R that was usually cut into the seat stay caps.

Regards,
MF in SF
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Old 10-18-20, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
After removing the current BB a test fitting of a know threading one will give a lot of data.

Do I see partially collapsed seat lug ears? Andy
Took the (completely seized) bottom bracket off yesterday. It is English thread Seized bottom bracket off yesterday. It is English thread. Knowing this, does that give any better idea about what frame this could be?




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Old 10-18-20, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
That crown was still available as late as mid-'80s, though they were starting to look a bit old-fashioned by then.. We used maybe 10-15 of them over about 5 years at the shop I worked at ('79-'84), and I have three of them at the moment. I doubt those were leftovers "in the pipeline" since 1960 – they must have been made up into the late '70s at least.
Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)

Mark B in Seattle


Based on the photos and thread type I just posted, any ideas?
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Old 10-20-20, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by vintage cellar View Post
Looks like a 1970's Chas. Roberts frame from England. Only thing missing is the R that was usually cut into the seat stay caps.

Regards,
MF in SF
MF,
Thanks so much for the suggestion. I reached out to the remaining staff of Roberts Cycles (Roberts Cycles). They took a look and were kind enough to send a response.

Could someone fill me in on what he is referring to when he mentions "The frame number looks to be something four which makes it pretty early ie 1960s"? I am not seeing a frame number from my pictures. Am I overlooking it or is this a reference to the geometry of the frame?
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Old 10-20-20, 08:48 AM
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I see it now. It appears to be a #14

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Old 10-21-20, 10:25 PM
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That frame dates from the 1970's and I would bet it was imported by Cycle Imports in Cornish, Maine. They were a Roberts importer / distributor, along with other bike parts and framebuilding supplies from Reynolds and Columbus.

The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.

Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.

Enjoy your new bike !
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Old 10-23-20, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vintage cellar View Post
That frame dates from the 1970's and I would bet it was imported by Cycle Imports in Cornish, Maine. They were a Roberts importer / distributor, along with other bike parts and framebuilding supplies from Reynolds and Columbus.

The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.

Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.

Enjoy your new bike !
I took off the fork last night to see if it was stamped as well and it was. Listed as #414 . I agree about the paint. I am still researching to confirm it as a Roberts. If I can, I will most likely have it powder coated solid white as most of the early track models were this color. I've been able to locate decals that were used by Chas Roberts in the 80's and 90's, but no luck yet with the earlier versions. I have a friend that does pinstriping and custom hand-painted signs, so I might have him do the badge.


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Old 11-26-20, 01:59 AM
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Newbie here so I cannot post pix yet but this looks very similar to my (reportedly-not decal’d) Chas Roberts I bought 30yrs ago. Same fork crown, seatstay caps, and triple circle cutouts in lugs. After ten posts I will try to post pix. -Cy

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Old 11-26-20, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ThatsOK Cyril View Post
Newbie here so I cannot post pix yet but this looks very similar to my (reportedly-not decal’d) Chas Roberts I bought 30yrs ago. Same dork crown, seatstay caps, and triple circle cutouts in lugs. After ten posts I will try to post pix. -Cy
if you try to post pics now, the system will save them in your gallery and we can post them for you.
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Old 11-27-20, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ThatsOK Cyril View Post
Newbie here so I cannot post pix yet but this looks very similar to my (reportedly-not decal’d) Chas Roberts I bought 30yrs ago. Same dork crown, seatstay caps, and triple circle cutouts in lugs. After ten posts I will try to post pix. -Cy
I would love to see pics when you are able to post.
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Old 04-12-21, 10:12 AM
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After 6+ months of work, she's finally done.
A full list of photos can be found here Roberts Bike | Flickr










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Old 04-12-21, 10:22 AM
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Period Correct Components dating 1950’s-1960’s:

Ambrosio Champion “Dural Forge ET Estampe” Stem 95mm x 26mm

Ambrosio Champion Pista Drop-bar Handlebars

Campagnolo #1051, Record Pista (144bcd) 165 mm Crank Set with matching Campy Crank Bolts and Campagnolo Pista Chainring Bolts

Campagnolo seat post 27.2 diameter, 180 mm length #1044

Campagnolo Super Record Road-Track Alloy Toe Clips (Most likely from the 1980’s)

Campagnolo Nuovo Super Record #1072 Seat Post Binder Fixing Bolt 8 x 19 mm

Campagnolo Headset – Exact model unknown

Modern Components:

Campagnolo Record Pista Bottom Bracket

Charles Roberts, Chrome Racing Bar Plugs

Brooks Cambium Saddle C15

Izumi Jet Black with Gold Pins 1/2 x 1/8 Track Bike Chain

MKS Sylvan all black Track pedals

6KU 30mm Deep V Double-Walled Alloy Wheels

Novatec Flip-Flop Hubs

Christophe Vintage Leather Toe Straps

Custom printed Decals provided by hlloydcycles.com

Alternate Setup - Nitto B259 Urban Riser Handlebar + NITTO Y-3 Bicycle Stem 6-9 Young 22.2, 90mm
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Old 04-12-21, 08:27 PM
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That's a nice looking bike now. Great job!

I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
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Old 04-12-21, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
That's a nice looking bike now. Great job!

I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
Hey Andy thanks so much for your feedback. The position of the saddle that you mentioned is an obvious error on my part. The photos taken of the bike next to the chain link fence were before it had ever been ridden. I was too excited about finishing my project that I couldn't help myself for taking photos. Hopefully you noticed the repositioning of the saddle in the other photos after I had the time to come to my senses and realize what would be appropriate for normal riding .
Thanks again for commenting I appreciate any and all feedback
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