Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Framebuilders
Reload this Page >

Galvanic Corrosion?

Notices
Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

Galvanic Corrosion?

Old 12-03-22, 02:27 PM
  #1  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Galvanic Corrosion?

I am wondering about my top tube lug. There seems to be a substance that will not wipe off. I can get my thumbnail in between the lug and the tube in this area.
The lugs are steel and thermal-bonded to aluminum tubes. What am I looking at, here?

Last edited by 1989Pre; 12-03-22 at 06:18 PM.
1989Pre is offline  
Old 12-03-22, 03:50 PM
  #2  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,281
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1308 Post(s)
Liked 1,905 Times in 1,048 Posts
A little bit of aluminum oxide. Same thing happens with an aluminum seatpost in a steel frame. It can get stuck. In this case, it also gets stuck. Keep the frame dry. It should be fine.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 12-03-22, 05:31 PM
  #3  
streetsurfer
Full Member
 
streetsurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 214

Bikes: ‘95 Le Tour, 80’s Nishiki Competition, Coda F900, Diamondback Response Trail, several schwinns-contis, suburban, letour lux, supersport? (repaint)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 93 Posts
I’d Try a soft (tooth) brush and some car polish. It may just be dried wax in the braze joint, where a brush and spritz of water may be all thats needed. The paint looks nice so it is hard for me to imagine it would be corrosion. Try a brush or microfiber towel, and a light polish/wax…not a hard cutting compound…you should know soon enough
streetsurfer is offline  
Likes For streetsurfer:
Old 12-03-22, 06:49 PM
  #4  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 16,954

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3722 Post(s)
Liked 2,766 Times in 1,721 Posts
Originally Posted by streetsurfer View Post
I’d Try a soft (tooth) brush and some car polish. It may just be dried wax in the braze joint, where a brush and spritz of water may be all that's needed. The paint looks nice so it is hard for me to imagine it would be corrosion. Try a brush or microfiber towel, and a light polish/wax…not a hard cutting compound…you should know soon enough
While I agree with trying to clean off the stuff I disagree with the opinion of nice paint. Note the thin coating at many of the corners, the pump peg is especially poorly done. Any of these thin spots could allow water and/or air to reach the underlying metals. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 12-03-22, 07:06 PM
  #5  
streetsurfer
Full Member
 
streetsurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: NW Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 214

Bikes: ‘95 Le Tour, 80’s Nishiki Competition, Coda F900, Diamondback Response Trail, several schwinns-contis, suburban, letour lux, supersport? (repaint)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 167 Times in 93 Posts
I simply meant nice enough to have sealed that joint well enough it may not be corrosion from open exposure.

either way a little cleaning and wax shouldnt hurt it, and may deter progression if it is exposed or growing from beneath.

not a great paint job, I agree. Maybe clean it out and seal with clearcoat or yellow paint if you can make a match.

Last edited by streetsurfer; 12-03-22 at 07:10 PM.
streetsurfer is offline  
Likes For streetsurfer:
Old 12-08-22, 12:41 PM
  #6  
Canaboo
Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by streetsurfer View Post
I’d Try a soft (tooth) brush and some car polish. It may just be dried wax in the braze joint, where a brush and spritz of water may be all thats needed. The paint looks nice so it is hard for me to imagine it would be corrosion. Try a brush or microfiber towel, and a light polish/wax…not a hard cutting compound…you should know soon enough
Aluminum brazed to steel?
Canaboo is offline  
Old 12-08-22, 02:57 PM
  #7  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,698 Times in 1,878 Posts
Looks like swaged construction to me. The white stuff could possibly be something they put in there to reduce corrosion
unterhausen is offline  
Old 12-09-22, 05:52 AM
  #8  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Originally Posted by Canaboo View Post
Aluminum brazed to steel?
Not brazed.., thermal bonded.

Is it possible that moisture infiltrated from the cable housing entry at lug?
1989Pre is offline  
Likes For 1989Pre:
Old 12-09-22, 05:56 AM
  #9  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Note the thin coating at many of the corners, the pump peg is especially poorly done.
I should hope that the edges of the lugs do have a thin coating of paint, rather than a thick layer that obscures the details.
i think the chance of moisture (either as gas or solid), entering through the cable route hole, is far greater than it entering directly through "thin" paint.
1989Pre is offline  
Likes For 1989Pre:
Old 12-09-22, 07:13 AM
  #10  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 1,334
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times in 546 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
While I agree with trying to clean off the stuff I disagree with the opinion of nice paint. Note the thin coating at many of the corners, the pump peg is especially poorly done. Any of these thin spots could allow water and/or air to reach the underlying metals. Andy
Yellow is a weird and difficult color to paint. It runs away from sharp edges no matter how many coats are applied. It is possible that the right amount of paint was applied in this case with the result that the yellow (at least the color I don't know about the paint) did what it almost always does and didn't stick to the sharp edge of these lugs. This used to drive me crazy when Imron was my only chosen brand.

Eventually I found that House of Kolor made a yellow primer. These base coats underneath the yellow color coats prevented me from having to lay the yellow on super thick. What was even more irritating - before I started using H of K primers - was that the yellow would collect in the shoreline making not only a color contrast with the lug edge but look like poor brazing because the shorelines were't clean.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 12-09-22, 09:23 AM
  #11  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,698 Times in 1,878 Posts
Doug, have you ever had the same problems with white paint? I have seen this with yellow bikes, especially powder coated ones. White powdercoat does the same thing.
OP's bike looks like it might be powder coated. In the case of powder coating, I think it's not really thin, there just isn't pigment at the sharp edges.
unterhausen is offline  
Likes For unterhausen:
Old 12-09-22, 09:56 AM
  #12  
base2 
Doesn't brain good.
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,369

Bikes: 5 good ones, and the occasional project.

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 1,001 Times in 585 Posts
That joint looks to be a Raleigh Technium. Great riding bikes so far as I am to understand. The lug construction however, used an epoxy that was applied between a hot lug & a cold aluminum tube and the 2 were then swaged together in an interference fit. In theory there should be nothing wrong with this arrangement.

But as all bonded things have the potential to become dis-bonded, if water intruded, the aluminum would be the sacrificial anode.

I'm not sure what I'd do in this case. I don't like any of the scenarios.

Is there a way available to test the white residue to establish what it actually is? Wax would be the best possible result. Aluminum-oxide would mean retiring the bike.

EDIT: Is this relevant? https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/1996/CP...e-Frame-Recall

Last edited by base2; 12-09-22 at 10:15 AM. Reason: To add link
base2 is offline  
Old 12-09-22, 11:54 AM
  #13  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Incidentally, the paint is Imron and was applied in 2000 by The Color Factory of Waretown, N.J. It has proven very durable.
1989Pre is offline  
Old 12-09-22, 06:24 PM
  #14  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 16,954

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3722 Post(s)
Liked 2,766 Times in 1,721 Posts
Originally Posted by 1989Pre View Post
I should hope that the edges of the lugs do have a thin coating of paint, rather than a thick layer that obscures the details.
i think the chance of moisture (either as gas or solid), entering through the cable route hole, is far greater than it entering directly through "thin" paint.
And i agree. But the question was about the tube joint edges and the pump peg was imaged, so my comments are about them.

I have had two of my own frames painted by The Color Factory and have seen two others done by them too (although many years ago). One was really nice. The others were middling at best. But given their cost not bad.

I am curious as to what the white stuff really is. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 12-09-22, 08:56 PM
  #15  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,698 Times in 1,878 Posts
When Andy said the paint was thin, he was talking about how you can see metal or primer through the topcoat at the edges. A painter would want to avoid that if at all possible.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 12-10-22, 10:57 AM
  #16  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 16,954

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3722 Post(s)
Liked 2,766 Times in 1,721 Posts
"I cleaned it with a Q-tip and filled the area with super glue." 1989Pre

As in you found a reason to need coating with the glue? Or just being cautious? Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 12-12-22, 05:21 AM
  #17  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
"I cleaned it with a Q-tip and filled the area with super glue." 1989Pre

As in you found a reason to need coating with the glue? Or just being cautious? Andy
As I have re-itterated, I could get a fingernail in between the lug and the tubing at that point. I sealed that area.
1989Pre is offline  
Old 12-12-22, 05:26 AM
  #18  
1989Pre
Standard Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brunswick, Maine
Posts: 3,284

Bikes: 1948 P. Barnard & Son, 1962 Rudge Sports, 1963 Freddie Grubb Routier, 1980 Manufrance Hirondelle, 1983 F. Moser Sprint, 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre, 2001 Raleigh M80

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 893 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 150 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
When Andy said the paint was thin, he was talking about how you can see metal or primer through the topcoat at the edges. A painter would want to avoid that if at all possible.
Look at the edges of the lugs. The paint is perfectly done. If you are talking about the pump peg, do you think 22 years of wear could have had an effect at that point?

So, in other words, neither of you know what is taking place at that site I mentioned in my original post. I cleaned the area and filled it with super glue. It is a small amount of galvanic corrosion caused by moisture entering through the cable-routing hole in the lug. I'll take Polaris O Bark's advice.
1989Pre is offline  
Old 12-12-22, 09:16 AM
  #19  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 16,954

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3722 Post(s)
Liked 2,766 Times in 1,721 Posts
Without our having the bike in front of us we don't really have the ability to better discern what's happening. But we have offered possibilities based on our experiences.

When I look at the image I see the thinning of the pigment along the lower lug's top edge behind the headtube too. Like I said this is not what I call a nice paint job, not terrible but not a good one either. I see no wear of the paint on the peg, no mars or rough areas from miles of a pump being pressed against it and vibrated by road shocks. What type of frame pump are you using?

I think what you did is about right. Resealing the "gaps" in the paint. I am just trying to better understand the "corrosion" you have dealt with and also trying to educate others, in addition to you. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Old 12-14-22, 02:03 PM
  #20  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 2,698 Times in 1,878 Posts
My opinion stands, the paint is very thin at every edge I can see. And it looks thick everywhere else. It's serviceable, but not that great.
I have no idea about the corrosion, if there is any.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 12-25-22, 01:24 PM
  #21  
Kontact
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,149
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2569 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 143 Posts
Galvanic corrosion is common in the bike industry because the bike industry has ignored it. But the Technium joints were developed by Boeing, which is aware of the problem. I have never heard of a Technium aluminum-steel joint failing. Aluminum and steel aren't as bad a mismatch as aluminum and carbon. And that white stuff doesn't look like the powdery aluminum oxide galvanic corrosion produces.

I wouldn't worry about it. Even if there is corrosion, this is not the type of joint that is going to spectacularly fail. There will likely be some looseness or creaking first.
Kontact is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.