Cracked Titanium
 

I’m looking for some professional perspective on a warranty repair I just received.

The Bike: Motobecane Titanium MTB (from Bikesdirect). The Issue: A crack developed under the top tube, right where it meets the head tube gusset/joint. The Repair: I sent it back under warranty. Rather than replacing the frame, the manufacturer performed a "re-weld" over the affected area.

I’ve attached the before (showing the original crack) and after (showing the repair) photos.

I have a few specific concerns I’m hoping the community can weigh in on:

1. Safety: Given the location (high-stress junction), is a repair like this standard practice for Ti, or is it a structural red flag?
   
2. Contamination: Ti is notoriously finicky with shielding gas. Does the color/texture of the new weld look like it was done "clean," or does it look like a rush job?
   
3. Heat Affected Zone (HAZ): Since this area has now been heated multiple times, should I be worried about the tubing becoming brittle?
   

I’d love to hear from anyone with experience in Ti fabrication. Is this a "ride it and don't worry" situation, or should I be pushing for a full frame replacement?

Thanks in advance for the help.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c5374dd45e.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cdd175cc0.jpeg

I can't be of meaningful help but in my experience in the processing industry with Ti repair welding of vessels, piping, etc. which could see high temperatures and very corrosive environments we called in experts in TI repair and had no trouble with the repairs. If Motobecane did the repairs I would not worry so much about the repair, however as you did not say this was a result of a unusual event I would worry about the cause and a repeat event(s)?

How old is the bike?

I think that's pretty horrible just because of the finish if nothing else. Why should you be expected to ride around with that booger sitting on your downtube? The way to tell if they back-purged it properly is to look at the back of the weld (with an endoscope if necessary) for "sugaring".

I have never welded Ti myself, but according to this page, blue is bad, and grey is very bad. Looks like you have both:

"The dark blue, purple, or blue + yellow color indicates that heavier contamination may occur during welding. Generally, if the welding area exhibits one of these colors, the material shall be rejected."

"The grey blue, grey, and white colors indicate very heavy contamination during welding hence are totally unacceptable. The welding shall be removed by grinding. Repair and re-welding job shall be done subsequently. Especially, the white welding surface have powdery and porous titanium-oxide loose deposit."

How to Evaluate Titanium Welding Visually?

They absolutely should give you a new frame or a refund.

I suspect the warranty allows for either repair of replacement at the choice of the brand. The brand did honor the warranty.

What I would do is to ride the bike but periodically check the weld area for future issues. I've been on the sidelines in a couple of TI welding repairs and they were both done by out of the bike industry welders and were still working the last time I saw the bikes. There was one TI repair that did go bad later that I am familiar with. A dropout eye had been welded on when the frame was being made. It broke off years later and was reattached (welding) by a local welder. That dropout rebroke off a year or two later. When I saw the repair it didn't look too clean or nice so I wasn't surprised at the later failure. MY suspicions are that there was too little shielding gas during the weld.

I'll be interested to read what other more TI experienced guys have to say.

What I would be concerned about is any future warranty coverage. I have seen bike brands refuse a second warranty claim, for the same bike or a previously replaced under warranty bike. Does the OP know if this repair is the last of any warranty claim offers? I also have to admit that buying a non mainstream bike from a known low ball seller makes this type of problem really hard to solve. Andy.

I'll also add that the crack is on what looks to be the down tube and I see no gussets anywhere nearby.

Very bad weld from what we can see, and probably worse on the inside. It'll break there again if ridden hard (or at all?)

I would ride it anyway, but I'm a lunatic, and I know how to spot a crack while it's small. If you're more risk-averse, consider just walking away, lake the loss, and never buy Chinese Ti again.

Remember, "as good as new" was not good enough, since it broke, and this is nowhere near as good as new. I'd like to know who they got to do the repair. I seriously doubt they sent it back to China, so this was likely done by some guy down the road from their US office, who normally welds mufflers and trailer hitches, from the look of it.

I'm not the most credentialled Ti welder, but I was taught by Gary Helfrich (founder of Merlin and Arctos), made a couple Ti frames at Davidson and then went to work at Ti Cycles for a couple years. None of the Ti frames that I built broke, that I know of, but maybe I wouldn't know if one did. My attention to cleanliness and argon purging was fanatical, probably to a level that's not scalable if you want to make money. But my wages were very low! A welder certified for aerospace or nuclear Ti welding would cost at least 3x-4x what I was making.

That looks comically bad. This can't be real?

Yeah, one of the worst I've ever seen. I saved that "repair" pic in my folder of horrible frame bodges.

Oh and if I may ask (to the OP), is the country of manufacture stated anywhere on it? I assume China, but I'd like to know for sure.

I would be pushing for money back and spend that money on a good Ti frame. If you are looking on the cheap Ora Manufacturing makes great stuff and they did my Foundry Chillkoot and Salsa Timberjack Ti. However I would personally go Sturdy Cycles or Firefly if I could spend more. Bikes Direct has purchased all of their clout and name recognition but their bikes are so-so at best and their selling method is predicated on a lie which really rubs me wrong. Plus if that is how they are handling a warranty it is bad.

I am not a frame builder in any sense of the word but being a bike fanatic and looked a little deeper into titanium welding and brazing (which is about as impractical as it gets for a bike frame so I gave up that dream) even I can tell it was not done by someone who know what they are doing or their day was so off there wasn't even a power plug within a mile to even test to see if it could turn on. That is a poor weld and I wouldn't trust it. It is possible that it could be fine and certainly one could keep a close eye on it but I wouldn't spend all the time and money to rebuild the bike and then it cracks again and you have to disassemble it and build another bike I would just buy a new frame from a known quantity and quality and do it once.

"Webster's dictionary defines wedding as 'the fusing of two metals with a hot torch.' Well, you know something? I think you guys are two medals. Gold medals". -* Michael Scott - The Office

Bikesdirect usually seems to name the frame manufacturer on the model page. For example from the current page for this random model:

MultiShape/Vari-Butted TITANIUM Design For Performance and Handling

Custom Made by ORA-TITANIUM Taiwan. They are one of, if not THE Top Titanium builders in the world. Specially Engineered Titanium frame and fork have MultiShape Tubing for ride quality and handling. Vari-Butted Titanium tubing for a magic carpet ride while retaining power transfer.

This does not look repaired by Motobecane? And a re-weld is a weld over a previously welded area, not a crack. Me thinks a Troll.

Is this a Troll or Welded by one...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...64f9a79d9.jpeg

Good news, sorry for painting this "Motobecane" with the China brush. Might be that the frame is actually worthy of a proper repair.

1) if that's the best looking bead whoever did that can lay down there's no reason to think they did anything else right.

2) there was some unknown reason that tube cracked in the first place, no reason to think it won't continue to do so.

Full disclosure: I have not welded titanium. I have Tig welded stainless and aluminum. That bead is disgusting.

That is a bad Ti weld. Anything other than straw yellow color indicates contamination or overheating. Besides the color, the bead is just bad. There is no way an experienced Ti welder did that. No frame manufacturer would repair a cracked tube by welding over the crack. The only acceptable repair would be complete replacement of the tube. This looks like what you would get if you went to a local welder and asked them to weld the crack.

That's exactly what probably happened. This isn't a "Motobecane", it is a BikesDirect with a Motobecane sticker which happened because the real Motobecane let their US copyright expire. BikesDirect has no frame building facilities, so they probably do just get some local welder to do this when the actual factory refuses to pay all the costs associated with replacing the frame under warranty.


I was in Rodriguez Cycles the other day and the frame builder was telling me that they had stopped (again) taking in titanium repairs because the quality of the tubing being used in many bikes had become so bad that tubing was cracking during welding, even well away from the welds. It used to be that all the failures started at a weld from a contamination point, but the OP's bike also appears to have cracked mid tube, well away from any welds. So this really makes me wonder about what allowed this to happen. Are these even 3/2.5? All the CP Ti bikes ever made crack eventually.


It is a crap shoot whether this weld will do the job - it isn't at the highest stress area of the tube. I would not be surprised if it held. I would also not be surprised if the bike cracked somewhere else, next.


I would send before, after and the "Made By" sticker photos to the manufacturer in Taiwan, just to see what they say. Maybe they will want to replace it.

Quality of the base material to begin with. That has got to be tough. Titanium frames have been around some time now. So they say higher-grade titanium, 3AL-2.5V or 6AL-4V, offer better performance and durability. I would not know. Quality of the base material should be a given.

These titanium frames don't come cheap. Now the lesson here is how do you test the base material for quality of manufacture. And how would I test a new frame to insure the integrity of its build. Ok, so I am diving into a rabbit hole looking for decent threads on the subject. Even though I do not have a titanium frame or see one in my future. Ain't this fun, I just love bikeforums... Ha...

Would be nice if the OP provided a model name for this bike.

I've been satisfied with the bikes I've bought from Bikesdirect. My understanding is that the company is owned by a Marketing professor and their website is filled with turgid prose. The unsophisticated buyer might be mislead by the business model of buying bankrupted brands names (or I surmise, paying struggling brands to borrow their name temporarily for use in the USA: Bottecchia). Rather like "Schwinn." I saw that Target was selling aluminum "Schwinn" MTB'S for $170 so I bought one for me and one with 24" wheels for my short wife. (I'm a road guy). My in-laws saw them and oohed and aahed at the Schwinns. I guess they grew up with Montgomery Ward or such bikes and lusted after Schwinns. Bikesdirect has generated some rancor on this website in the past so pending further information from the OP I am suspending my judgement on his motivation and the obviously inadequate warranty fulfillment. The current MotobecaneUSA web page does note a lifetime warranty on their titanium and carbon frame with repair and replacement at their pleasure (with the usual caveats, abuse, etc.)

The owner is somewhat of a shyster using old brands to give his crap clout but worst of all the fake sale going on instead of just selling the bikes at the price they want them listed at everything is on some great sale and is always a knock against an established brand. I mean people do get sucked into buying one so I get it his scheme works.

I've had good luck with the BikesDirect Motobecanes I've bought, too. Great bikes for the money. I've never been tempted to buy any company's titanium bikes, though.

FWIW, I've read a few stories about people struggling to get some of the domestic Ti bike manufacturers to repair or replace frames under warranty that had obvious defects. Nor that that's any consolation for the OP.

Actually I have two bikes I built up with Motobecane frame sets that I'm very happy with; one is a 1973 Le Champion, the other is a 1979 Le Champion :)

This whole hijacking brand name thing is kinda sad.

My Merlin Extralight cracked in a similar place, although an inch closer to the downtube bosses.
It went unrepaired - since out of warranty - while some people here suggested making it a jointed/collared travel bike.
The shop wanted close to a thousand bucks for the conversion. Maybe someday, because I miss its nice ride.

Thank you all for your feedback and advice.

After researching the titanium coloring rules, the weld shows blue, purple, and gray which indicates oxygen contamination and is considered a failed and unsafe weld.

I’ll share the pictures with ORA in China and see what they have to say. Maybe they’ll help me out? But I know it’s really Motobecane/Bikes Direct responsibility.

I’ve been trying to work with Motobecane (Bikes Direct) to give them the opportunity to make things right. The lifetime warranty was honored with repair. However, safety for the consumer should be priority.

This was Motobecanes (Bikes Direct) reply …

Hello again,

That is how the manufacture decided to repair the frame.

If you have any issues with the repair down the road please let me know, and we can go from there.

*The only option for those Ti frames are repair as the factory no longer produces them.

Best regards,

Larry @ Bikes Direct



The bike is a Motobecane Fly Team 29. Motobecane (bikesdirect) is selling the same model bike today.

Going forward, I may use all the parts on another frame. Maybe a solid punk rock Surly Karate Monkey frame whilst I pursue this issue.

I think at this point, it’s about an unsafe repair.

Thanks again for all the replies and any further feedback.

That response from them is crap, Larry is not taking responsibility and claiming that is OK. I would honestly show them the thread here and tell them that both professional frame builders and bike shop owners are saying that is BAD WELDING and they need to make it right. They could send a new frame or give you a refund for the frame but saying just wait till it fails and then call us is ridiculous. It is the type of response I would expect from that company but is not a good response and hopefully that response spreads far and wide so people see it and understand that is not how to do business. It would be one thing to go "Hey we no longer make that frame but here is what we can do 1. offer you a new frame or credits of similar value, 2. give you X amount towards a proper repair or 3. take back the frame and we will get it repaired properly for you" but that response is not good.

I had a nice metal fender from PDW that cracked that they stopped making and while it was sad they offered me a full credit for something new from them and made me happy and whole and there was no real argument on their side and it was pretty easy and painless. That is how they should handle it. If they had said send it back and gave me a poor weld on it and said this is fine I would have been pissed but they wanted to keep a customer and they have big time. They were honest and quick to try and solve the issue as best they could despite not having new ones and I was satisfied.

To properly season a proper carbon steel wok you heat it enough to change the color of it so you are changing the molecular structure to make it more non-stick. People think it is oil no it is actually waiting till the wok turns colors which is great for cooking but bad for a weld. The oil polymerization is a part of it but "seasoning a wok" is actually more metallurgy and was really fun to do but sadly did accidentally burn the wood handle a tiny bit but hasn't effected the wok.

Pretty shocking reply. Even if it's true the factory are no longer making them (and the ones they're selling are old stock) they should offer you whatever the equivalent new frame is or a refund.