Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Framebuilders
Reload this Page >

a few basic (real basic) questions!

Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

a few basic (real basic) questions!

Old 12-12-05, 11:40 AM
  #1  
brunop
hell's angels h/q e3st ny
Thread Starter
 
brunop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: boston area/morningside heights manhattan
Posts: 1,582

Bikes: surly steamroller, independent fabrication titanium club racer, iro jamie roy--44/16, independent fabrication steel crown jewel--47/17, surly karate. monkey (rohloff speed hub), unicycle

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
a few basic (real basic) questions!

i just ride. fixed gear 99% of the time. i'm thinking of getting a custom fixed gear frame. a few (real naive!) questions:

what are the advantages and disadvantages of lugged frames versus welded? steel vs. aluminum?

any help would be appreciated! thanks!
brunop is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 12:28 PM
  #2  
WorldWind
Hardtail
 
WorldWind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Az. & Ca.
Posts: 663

Bikes: Richey Everest, Supercomp, Richey custom handbuilt Road, and others.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lugged / welded

Taking the whole aesthetics thing out of the picture.

A lugged frame design allows the builder to use the exact butted tube they want without having to spec a tube with a thick wall at the welded ends. This is an advantage for ride mostly. A lighter frame can be achieved with tig welding.

Beyond that.
The raging controversy over steel agenst aluminum is one I would rather not delve to deeply into beyond saying I don’t like the feel or look of aluminum frame rode bikes. The thicker tubes are ok on a mtn bike but again if it’s a hard tail it has to be steel. Just my preference.
WorldWind is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 02:36 PM
  #3  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,719

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by WorldWind
Lugged / welded

A lugged frame design allows the builder to use the exact butted tube they want without having to spec a tube with a thick wall at the welded ends. This is an advantage for ride mostly. A lighter frame can be achieved with tig welding.
When TIG started to hit the scene some years ago common thought was that thicker tubes were needed in the weld zone. Some companies like Tange even made specific tubes for this purpose. As time has marched forward it's become clear that there is no need for these thicker tube ends. In fact, some of the thinnest tubesets, like True Temper S3 w/0.5mm butted ends, are designed with TIG in mind.

So to answer the origional question, the only reason to use lugs is for asthetics.
Nessism is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 05:40 PM
  #4  
e-RICHIE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
...So to answer the origional question, the only reason to use lugs is for asthetics.

ed-issimo
i'm not sure this is an across-the-board fact.
for production work, tig offers an efficiency factor that brazing
cannot rival. in today's market, the joining technique is as
marketed as the material. newer folks "know" tig because it
has been ubiquitous in the past decade. folks that never
embraced it because they "never had to" choose brazing,
partly because there is no model year or time clock to
worry about. i.e., while framebuilders now tig routinely,
most do so because they're newer to the trade or because
they veered away from brazing when Al became popular.
ymmv.
e-RICHIE©™®
e-RICHIE is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 08:48 PM
  #5  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,719

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by e-RICHIE
ed-issimo
i'm not sure this is an across-the-board fact.
for production work, tig offers an efficiency factor that brazing
cannot rival. in today's market, the joining technique is as
marketed as the material. newer folks "know" tig because it
has been ubiquitous in the past decade. folks that never
embraced it because they "never had to" choose brazing,
partly because there is no model year or time clock to
worry about. i.e., while framebuilders now tig routinely,
most do so because they're newer to the trade or because
they veered away from brazing when Al became popular.
ymmv.
e-RICHIE©™®

Sorry Richard, but I don't understand your point.

Maybe I did not explain my point clearly. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary to use TIG specific tubesets these days; a builder can use the same tubeset whether welding or brazing. Of course, these comments don't necessarily apply for a production environment where a little extra meat on the tubes is a good thing, particularly if welding.
Nessism is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 08:54 PM
  #6  
Thylacine
Industry Maven
 
Thylacine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936

Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's true as Richo says - the TIG is primarily an efficiency tool for production. All modern steel tubesets are 'optimised' for high temp TIG production as that's where the volume is.

Of course, none of this diminishes a nice TIG'd or Lugged bike for what it is, and certainly a TIG'd bike is not inferior just because it's efficiently stuck together.

As for the original post, I think from my perspective at least the only real generalisations you can make are that a) Steel bikes (TIG or Lugged) are heavier than Aluminium; b) Steel bikes have a 'Springy-Zingy©®' saddle feel where as Al bikes as a generalisation are a bit clunkier; c) I've found steel in the larger sizes can't rival Al or Sc for drivetrain stiffness; d) Lugged bikes are sexy, TIG'd bikes are....not quite as sexy, but that's why cool paint and decals were invented! e) Steel has a infinite fatigue life, whereas Al doesn't. Chances are you won't be handing your Al bike to your grandkids, if that means anything to you.

Anyway Bruno, an Al fixie is sacrilege! It's steel or it's nothin'!
Thylacine is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 09:08 PM
  #7  
Thylacine
Industry Maven
 
Thylacine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936

Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
I was trying to point out that it is not necessary to use TIG specific tubesets these days; a builder can use the same tubeset whether welding or brazing.
All modern tubesets are designed specifically for TIG. The fact that they also work for Lugged construction is arbitrary.
Thylacine is offline  
Old 12-12-05, 09:15 PM
  #8  
e-RICHIE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
Sorry Richard, but I don't understand your point.

Maybe I did not explain my point clearly. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary to use TIG specific tubesets these days; a builder can use the same tubeset whether welding or brazing. Of course, these comments don't necessarily apply for a production environment where a little extra meat on the tubes is a good thing, particularly if welding.

okay - sorry.
however, these days, all tubesets are tig specific.
howzat? well, while many/most are short butt types
and some are that wacky air hardening stuff, you'll
find that manufacturers like no longer adhere to the
industry o.d. specs once did. why? because few/if any
use lugs. ergo, o.d. is not the be all/end all that it
once was.
e-RICHIE©™®

ps warwick is correct (above). i replied before i saw his text.
e-RICHIE is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 05:48 PM
  #9  
Kogswell
Matthew Grimm / Flunky
 
Kogswell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 656
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Thylacine
It's true as Richo says - the TIG is primarily an efficiency tool for production. All modern steel tubesets are 'optimised' for high temp TIG production as that's where the volume is.

What Warwick said.

Most mdern tube sets are optimized for TIG production. Using them in a lugged frame is kinda silly; why pay for the air-hardening goodness of 853 when you don't use it?

The good news is that there are tubes being produced that are optimized for lugged construction: their butts are custom drawn to match the lugs being used. And those same tubes can be heat treated to bring up strength which makes thinner walls possible. In that case, low-heat lugged production is optimal because it doesn't compromise the heat treatment.

So, in a sense, lugged construction is as purposeful as ever, if you use the right tubes.

ECO makes the raw, custom drawn tubes. And a small specialty shop does the heat treatment.

I only know this because we use them in our top-end frames.

Kogswell is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 08:21 PM
  #10  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 2,719

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Maybe I'm just shooting off my mouth again, or maybe I just don't understand properly, bit I don't get this whole TIG vs. lugged tubeset business.

First off, I understand that lugged frames must use tubes with the appropriate diameters to plug into the lugs. Beyond that, I don't understand what constitutes a "lugged tubeset" from a "TIG tubeset"?

Back in the old days of Reynolds 753 tubing, the tubes would loose a significant amount of heat treatment strength if brazed with anything other than silver. This is a true "lugged tubeset" since silver is in the lugged specific domain.

When TIG started to replace lugged frames in the marketplace, Tange made some TIG specific tubesets with thicker than normal, and shorter than normal, butted sections. The idea was that the thick tube-ends were able to tolerate the weld heat better without risk of burn-through or strength loss due to the high heat during welding, and the short butts were suitable because the weld affected zone was quite localized with TIG.

Moving to modern times, the alloys used in all the various tubesets I'm aware of are quite tolerant to the high heat of the welding process thus there is no need to silver braze unless the builder wants to. Further, there is no need to use thick butted tubes for strength reasons when TIG welding - Tange's concern of strength loss proved to be a non-issue as long as the builder paid attention to his business and didn't day dream while welding and burn-through a tube.

So today we have some very thin tubesets, like Dedacciai Zero, that can be either welded or brazed with lugs (assuming the appropriate tube diameters are selected). These tubes are butted .65mm on the ends with very short butts and are used by some very prominent builders, both TIG and brazed. Gone are the days where specific tubesets are used, nor needed, for any particular type of joining.

Given this, in what way are tubesets TIG specific other than the diameters (which don't fit lugs), what what would constitute a "lugged specific" tubeset in this modern era and how would this tubeset be different than a TIG tubeset?


Ed

Last edited by Nessism; 12-19-05 at 08:50 PM.
Nessism is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 08:40 PM
  #11  
e-RICHIE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kogswell
What Warwick said.

Most mdern tube sets are optimized for TIG production. Using them in a lugged frame is kinda silly; why pay for the air-hardening goodness of 853 when you don't use it?

The good news is that there are tubes being produced that are optimized for lugged construction: their butts are custom drawn to match the lugs being used. And those same tubes can be heat treated to bring up strength which makes thinner walls possible. In that case, low-heat lugged production is optimal because it doesn't compromise the heat treatment.

So, in a sense, lugged construction is as purposeful as ever, if you use the right tubes.

ECO makes the raw, custom drawn tubes. And a small specialty shop does the heat treatment.

I only know this because we use them in our top-end frames.


with this said, what kind of net weight could a frame
be - on the light side, that is - if this brand of tubing
is used? 4lbs? 3.25lbs? just curious.
e-RICHIE is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 09:18 PM
  #12  
Mike T.
All-round nice guy.
 
Mike T.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 448

Bikes: Kish road bike, Seven mtb, Marinoni road and track bikes.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Try this -

http://www.anvilbikes.com/story.php?news_ID=19&catID=3
Mike T. is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 09:29 PM
  #13  
Thylacine
Industry Maven
 
Thylacine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936

Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kogswell
The good news is that there are tubes being produced that are optimized for lugged construction: their butts are custom drawn to match the lugs being used. And those same tubes can be heat treated to bring up strength which makes thinner walls possible. In that case, low-heat lugged production is optimal because it doesn't compromise the heat treatment.
You can already buy heat treated 4130 cro-mo, such as True Temper Versus HT, but as I understand it, it's still not as strong as the 'air hardening' thermophillic steels which are designed to increase their strengths in the HAZ via TIG welding. I also think that even utilising these steels, althought they wouldn't improve their strengths at the joins, you can still silver braze them into a lugged frame that would still theoretically have better mechanical properties than heat treated 4130.

Richard, you know what I'd like to see from a theoretical standpoint? Lugs that are designed utilising FEA to actually dissipate stresses which would then be brazed into straight guage 0.45mm thick tubes - the lug would be the lug AND the "butting".

Now THAT would be 'lug specific'!
Thylacine is offline  
Old 12-19-05, 09:33 PM
  #14  
e-RICHIE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Richard, you know what I'd like to see from a theoretical standpoint? Lugs that are designed utilising FEA to actually dissipate stresses which would then be brazed into straight guage 0.45mm thick tubes - the lug would be the lug AND the "butting".

Now THAT would be 'lug specific'!

heck - easy.
most of the butts are now so perilously short that
my lugs overlap the transition area on nearly all
the mid and small sizes. no problems___yet!!!!!!
e-RICHIE©™®
e-RICHIE is offline  
Old 12-20-05, 05:14 AM
  #15  
Kogswell
Matthew Grimm / Flunky
 
Kogswell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 656
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Richard, you know what I'd like to see from a theoretical standpoint? Lugs that are designed utilising FEA to actually dissipate stresses which would then be brazed into straight guage 0.45mm thick tubes - the lug would be the lug AND the "butting".

Now THAT would be 'lug specific'!
Warwick,

A couple of weeks ago RS and I were discussing the Masi Volumetrica lugs. I found them intereting because they were apparently designed to be used with strengthened, light straight.

We're testing CNC'd lugs at the moment and I've been told that if I can come up with a set of diimensions, these guy can make a tool path for it.
Kogswell is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
FDHESQ
Bicycle Mechanics
6
02-21-15 06:52 PM
JMak00
Bicycle Mechanics
3
08-16-14 01:39 PM
Mac_48
Road Cycling
6
11-13-09 10:46 AM
Dr.PooLittle
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
22
01-31-08 01:44 PM
linux_author
General Cycling Discussion
11
01-15-06 10:41 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.