Brazing w/MAPP...need some suggestions.
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Brazing w/MAPP...need some suggestions.
A few months ago I bought some scrap tube and lugs from Andy @ Strawberry Cyclesport (Terra Nova Bikes). I'm finally getting some time off from work, and want to start practicing brazing.
My problem is - I am limited to ONLY using MAPP torches. I live in government (Coast Guard) housing, and any sort of welding equipment is prohibited...except for handheld torches (propane, MAPP, etc).
So, working with that limitation...what are my best choices for rods and flux that will be most compatible with MAPP heat?
Thanks. And please - PLEASE - don't tell me I HAVE to get a big Oxy/Acetelyne setup. I can't!!
My problem is - I am limited to ONLY using MAPP torches. I live in government (Coast Guard) housing, and any sort of welding equipment is prohibited...except for handheld torches (propane, MAPP, etc).
So, working with that limitation...what are my best choices for rods and flux that will be most compatible with MAPP heat?
Thanks. And please - PLEASE - don't tell me I HAVE to get a big Oxy/Acetelyne setup. I can't!!
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Building with lugs is the easiest way to get started in framebuilding. If you use investment cast lugs with the proper clearance for silver (approx. .004"), 56% silver will work great. Use the appropriate white flux and have at it.
Good luck.
Ed
Good luck.
Ed
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I've never brazed frame tubes into lugs. I have however brazed and welded a lot. I really don't think you can generate enough heat with MAPP gas to get brazing rod to flow properly. The tubing probably conducts the heat down the tube too fast. If it can be done it would be with silver rod. Most silver rod melts at 1100 to 1200 F. Brass / bronze melt at 1200 to 2000 F. MAPP gas says that the flame temp is 2927 which sounds hot enough. But you have to get all the tubing metal at the joint well above the melting piont for the brazing material to flow into every little void. Which flux to use is determined by base material, rod material and temperature during brazing.
SS
SS
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Originally Posted by AndyGrow
A few months ago I bought some scrap tube and lugs from Andy @ Strawberry Cyclesport (Terra Nova Bikes). I'm finally getting some time off from work, and want to start practicing brazing.
My problem is - I am limited to ONLY using MAPP torches. I live in government (Coast Guard) housing, and any sort of welding equipment is prohibited...except for handheld torches (propane, MAPP, etc).
So, working with that limitation...what are my best choices for rods and flux that will be most compatible with MAPP heat?
Thanks. And please - PLEASE - don't tell me I HAVE to get a big Oxy/Acetelyne setup. I can't!!
My problem is - I am limited to ONLY using MAPP torches. I live in government (Coast Guard) housing, and any sort of welding equipment is prohibited...except for handheld torches (propane, MAPP, etc).
So, working with that limitation...what are my best choices for rods and flux that will be most compatible with MAPP heat?
Thanks. And please - PLEASE - don't tell me I HAVE to get a big Oxy/Acetelyne setup. I can't!!
MAPP brazer velonomad has a good list of rods/flux on this thread - look at posting #4
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/161694-velonomad-kof.html
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Scroll down to the "re-cycle" thread. Velo shows how to fillet braze with mapp. I use to belong to the same MTB club as Velo . He has built some nice bikes with mapp gas.
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Go to a plumbing or welding supply and get yourself an MC acetylene tank and regulator set with a turbo tip. Its fairly small not much larger than the mapp gas and the turbo tips come in various sizes.
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Hello from Marquette, Michigan! (A fellow Yooper on the shore of The Big Lake)
Just the other day I was looking around the web for interesting framebuilders and came across Circle A Cycles at https://www.circleacycles.com/. They're an interesting company in R.I. that builds frames and on their website they mention using MAPP gas. Good luck with the framebuilding. let us know how it goes.
Just the other day I was looking around the web for interesting framebuilders and came across Circle A Cycles at https://www.circleacycles.com/. They're an interesting company in R.I. that builds frames and on their website they mention using MAPP gas. Good luck with the framebuilding. let us know how it goes.
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I.ve been using MAPP to fillet braze a couple of dozen cromo recumbent frames for almost 9 years. A properly done joint seems to be no problem. I even weld with MAPP.
Tom P
Tom P
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If you ever find you need a little more heat than your torch provides you can use a heat reflector to capture a few more degrees. I use copper flashing.
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The biggest problem i see with mapp gas is you hold the whole thing tank and tip. i have lots of experience brazing/ soldering and the ability to have the tip on a hose gives you a lot more room to work with.
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This thread really got me interested! I've been wanting to try this for a long time, but never thought straight MAPP would do it... So, I figured, what the heck- give it a try - I've only got like 3 frames in the basement that I picked up for nothing because someone rammed a parked car or other tube tweaker. Sure 'nuff-- the stuff got it pleanty hot enough to pry the joints apart on a couple of lugged Reynolds 531 frames. I then managed to add a bunch of small braze-ons (cable guides and such) to a frame I've been meaning to take to a local builder. Saved at least $50, even after investing in a new self-igniting MAPP torch as advised. If mattman is worried about the weight, they (Bernz-o-matic) do sell a version with the nozzle on a hose. I guess he's never sweated water pipes in a basement before (all along the ceiling!)-- working on a bike frame at table top level isn't really that strenuous! ;-) I'm about to order up a few replacement tubes for the frames I've dismantled and see about putting these beauties back together. With luck I'll manage to get them lined up properly and they'll be good to go! You gotta love steel-- try that with carbon or aluminum!
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Originally Posted by raincrosswrench
If mattman is worried about the weight, they (Bernz-o-matic) do sell a version with the nozzle on a hose. I guess he's never sweated water pipes in a basement before (all along the ceiling!)-- working on a bike frame at table top level isn't really that strenuous! ;-)
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I brazed this lowracer recumbent entirely using a Bernzomatic model JTH7 torch and mapp gas.
This torch has a hose that is several feet long, and DOES put out enough heat to fillet braze. I like the idea about using a shield to keep the heat near the joint. In the past I have used a second propane torch to add additional heat to bottom bracket shells, etc.
This torch has a hose that is several feet long, and DOES put out enough heat to fillet braze. I like the idea about using a shield to keep the heat near the joint. In the past I have used a second propane torch to add additional heat to bottom bracket shells, etc.
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Originally Posted by PaPa
As a CWI, I experimented with different brazing methods. One of the problems with MAPP, is cost. One student, used 2-1/2, $9.00 bottles to build one frame. Not only that, the larger (non-replaceable) nozzle of these torches is too large to do delicate lug work or braze-ons. The most efficient and cost effective method is propane/oxygen, coupled with a decent torch (Smith AW1A, Victor J series, Harris model 15, etc) w/changable tips.
2 1/2 bottles of mapp? it wasn't the torch's fault.
I used less than a full 1lb Mapp bottle to build this frame using a standard Benzomatic tip. Just takes a little practice to learn how to control the heat.
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Originally Posted by velonomad
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Originally Posted by atombikes
I brazed this lowracer recumbent entirely using a Bernzomatic model JTH7 torch and mapp gas.
This torch has a hose that is several feet long, and DOES put out enough heat to fillet braze. I like the idea about using a shield to keep the heat near the joint. In the past I have used a second propane torch to add additional heat to bottom bracket shells, etc.
This torch has a hose that is several feet long, and DOES put out enough heat to fillet braze. I like the idea about using a shield to keep the heat near the joint. In the past I have used a second propane torch to add additional heat to bottom bracket shells, etc.
Atombikes can you try posting the pic or link to your lowracer again? It doesn't come up on my computer
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velonomad,
OMG, that bike of yours is beautiful! I have an old Windsor (Mexican built) bike that has polished lugs like that. I plan on doing a restoration on it when I get some free time.
As for the pic, you're right, I can't get it to work either? Here's the link again (maybe this time it will work?)
OMG, that bike of yours is beautiful! I have an old Windsor (Mexican built) bike that has polished lugs like that. I plan on doing a restoration on it when I get some free time.
As for the pic, you're right, I can't get it to work either? Here's the link again (maybe this time it will work?)
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Originally Posted by PaPa
As a CWI, I experimented with different brazing methods. One of the problems with MAPP, is cost. One student, used 2-1/2, $9.00 bottles to build one frame. Not only that, the larger (non-replaceable) nozzle of these torches is too large to do delicate lug work or braze-ons. The most efficient and cost effective method is propane/oxygen, coupled with a decent torch (Smith AW1A, Victor J series, Harris model 15, etc) w/changable tips.
For those people, there is mapp gas. And I can state that mapp torches are ESPECIALLY good and easy to use for brazeons. I have read that some professional framebuilders use mapp exclusively for all brazeons due to it's convenience.
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Originally Posted by atombikes
velonomad,
OMG, that bike of yours is beautiful! I have an old Windsor (Mexican built) bike that has polished lugs like that. I plan on doing a restoration on it when I get some free time.
As for the pic, you're right, I can't get it to work either? Here's the link again (maybe this time it will work?)
OMG, that bike of yours is beautiful! I have an old Windsor (Mexican built) bike that has polished lugs like that. I plan on doing a restoration on it when I get some free time.
As for the pic, you're right, I can't get it to work either? Here's the link again (maybe this time it will work?)
My bike might be polished and pretty but your bike is much more interesting! You guys who are building recumbents and HPVs blow me away with the creative stuff you come up with!
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Thanks for the kind words. I am currently rebuilding that bike, I just finished painting it. I'll post pics when it is completed.
velonomad, can you give a brief description of how you painted your bike? It looks very good.
velonomad, can you give a brief description of how you painted your bike? It looks very good.
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I especially am interested in how the lugs were masked for painting, and how the decals (if they are decals) were made.