Bamboo question..
08-01-11, 01:26 PM
#27
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I must confess one of the reasons I got back into biking was so I could have something to beat on the trails on my way to the river to fish 
very cool site.
very cool site.
09-21-11, 12:15 PM
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first draft. I need to pull it apart and add more carbon to the head tube joints.
09-21-11, 12:27 PM
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SWEET! nice joint wrap with that CF. I was just rereviewing my plans a couple of hours ago, going with hemp instead of CF and just started the new jig! Your bamboo doesn't look like it has any real taper to it, I'm thinking of looking for some that does so I can imitate a more modern bike, but I love yours!
09-26-11, 06:15 AM
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I highly recommend putting something structural in your laminate besides hemp. The Bamboo Bike Studio did destruction testing on hemp lugs and found that they stretch from repeated stresses in the small to medium catagory until the bike gets floppy and the joints fail. I found their info in their blog although I don't know if the info is still available. At the very least it would be beneficial to put some fiberglass in the joints.
It is up to you, but straight hemp lugs will die faster than an aluminum frame. My first one was a hemp lug too. It lasted 6 months and went down the stairs coming back from the hardware store about 1.5 times a week. It broke at the ht/dt joint and is the only bike I've ever owned that had a name. We called it the "spaghetti bike" because it got so floppy. It's really a testament to the resin system I was using that it lasted that long. I've built the other 6 with carbon and I'm pretty sure you could jump them off the house, no problem.
Good Luck.
Andy
It is up to you, but straight hemp lugs will die faster than an aluminum frame. My first one was a hemp lug too. It lasted 6 months and went down the stairs coming back from the hardware store about 1.5 times a week. It broke at the ht/dt joint and is the only bike I've ever owned that had a name. We called it the "spaghetti bike" because it got so floppy. It's really a testament to the resin system I was using that it lasted that long. I've built the other 6 with carbon and I'm pretty sure you could jump them off the house, no problem.
Good Luck.
Andy
09-26-11, 12:47 PM
#31
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I highly recommend putting something structural in your laminate besides hemp. The Bamboo Bike Studio did destruction testing on hemp lugs and found that they stretch from repeated stresses in the small to medium catagory until the bike gets floppy and the joints fail. I found their info in their blog although I don't know if the info is still available. At the very least it would be beneficial to put some fiberglass in the joints.
It is up to you, but straight hemp lugs will die faster than an aluminum frame. My first one was a hemp lug too. It lasted 6 months and went down the stairs coming back from the hardware store about 1.5 times a week. It broke at the ht/dt joint and is the only bike I've ever owned that had a name. We called it the "spaghetti bike" because it got so floppy. It's really a testament to the resin system I was using that it lasted that long. I've built the other 6 with carbon and I'm pretty sure you could jump them off the house, no problem.
Good Luck.
Andy
It is up to you, but straight hemp lugs will die faster than an aluminum frame. My first one was a hemp lug too. It lasted 6 months and went down the stairs coming back from the hardware store about 1.5 times a week. It broke at the ht/dt joint and is the only bike I've ever owned that had a name. We called it the "spaghetti bike" because it got so floppy. It's really a testament to the resin system I was using that it lasted that long. I've built the other 6 with carbon and I'm pretty sure you could jump them off the house, no problem.
Good Luck.
Andy
09-27-11, 08:37 AM
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More pictures!
Time to add some more photos!
rear quarter view by cbchess, on Flickr
Frame in stand by cbchess, on Flickr
Front view by cbchess, on Flickr
Rear disc brake by cbchess, on Flickr
Bottom Bracket detail by cbchess, on Flickr
09-28-11, 05:02 PM
#33
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do you plan to sand down your lugs? And again, tell me how it rides after your sure it's safe for a real ride!
09-29-11, 07:41 AM
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Yes I wanted to make sure it rode well before I did my finaly coat. I made the mistake of doing the final coat and then realizing I needed to add more carbon fiber layers. So I've added about 6 more layers and now I need to do a final sanding and gloss coat. I plan on doing somekind of valspar or poly coat on the raw bamboo as well.
Its been raining like crazy since I've built it up, so still waiting to ride it!
Its been raining like crazy since I've built it up, so still waiting to ride it!
10-03-11, 10:07 AM
#36
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don't look back... bah and now that songs in my head I almost commented on the deadhead sticker at first too though... and actually it's not bad looking at all, makes me think my jolly roger decal set might not be a terrible idea...
10-05-11, 07:46 PM
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A lot more can be done with hemp or flax without just putting a gob of random fibers around the lug like the BBS used to do.
Their lugs were more likely failing because of lack of sufficient orientation of the fibers.
No matter what fiber choice you use an underlay of cloth in the chosen fiber makes more sense than just straight wrapping.
Unidirectional carbon cloth layed along the lines of the tubing and spanning the miter joints before wrapping goes a long way towards lasting lug integrity.
You can buy high grade Linen artist's canvas as an underlay for a natural fiber lug.
The source of your natural fiber is very important also. The way the fibers are grown and processed are crucial to the strength.
Keep in mind that modern phenolics used in very high stress areas are often based on Cotton or linen canvas or even paper in a resin binder.
Their lugs were more likely failing because of lack of sufficient orientation of the fibers.
No matter what fiber choice you use an underlay of cloth in the chosen fiber makes more sense than just straight wrapping.
Unidirectional carbon cloth layed along the lines of the tubing and spanning the miter joints before wrapping goes a long way towards lasting lug integrity.
You can buy high grade Linen artist's canvas as an underlay for a natural fiber lug.
The source of your natural fiber is very important also. The way the fibers are grown and processed are crucial to the strength.
Keep in mind that modern phenolics used in very high stress areas are often based on Cotton or linen canvas or even paper in a resin binder.
10-05-11, 09:25 PM
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A lot more can be done with hemp or flax without just putting a gob of random fibers around the lug like the BBS used to do.
Their lugs were more likely failing because of lack of sufficient orientation of the fibers.
No matter what fiber choice you use an underlay of cloth in the chosen fiber makes more sense than just straight wrapping.
Unidirectional carbon cloth layed along the lines of the tubing and spanning the miter joints before wrapping goes a long way towards lasting lug integrity.
You can buy high grade Linen artist's canvas as an underlay for a natural fiber lug.
The source of your natural fiber is very important also. The way the fibers are grown and processed are crucial to the strength.
Keep in mind that modern phenolics used in very high stress areas are often based on Cotton or linen canvas or even paper in a resin binder.
Their lugs were more likely failing because of lack of sufficient orientation of the fibers.
No matter what fiber choice you use an underlay of cloth in the chosen fiber makes more sense than just straight wrapping.
Unidirectional carbon cloth layed along the lines of the tubing and spanning the miter joints before wrapping goes a long way towards lasting lug integrity.
You can buy high grade Linen artist's canvas as an underlay for a natural fiber lug.
The source of your natural fiber is very important also. The way the fibers are grown and processed are crucial to the strength.
Keep in mind that modern phenolics used in very high stress areas are often based on Cotton or linen canvas or even paper in a resin binder.
I guess I should add that the BBS tests tested 5 different layups (if memory serves) and experienced failure due to repetition in all cases. As a result of the testing they developed the carbon tow method that they use today.
10-06-11, 10:25 AM
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I'm skeptical. Hemp doesn't stretch to that degree and it should be locked in the resin matrix. If the whole system is done properly it shouldn't be possible to apply enough tensile or compressive strength to the lugs to get that type of failure.
Nothing wrong with giving up and taking the easier route if it seems safer though.
A fibre resin matrix has the potential to reach into the 30000 psi range depending on resin choice.
That foam block technique with the matrix over the top looks downright scary.
Nothing wrong with giving up and taking the easier route if it seems safer though.
A fibre resin matrix has the potential to reach into the 30000 psi range depending on resin choice.
That foam block technique with the matrix over the top looks downright scary.
10-07-11, 06:11 PM
#40
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Hey guys, some of you may remember the thread I created a year or two back about bamboo. Well I'm back and still without a frame, however I will be building one soon. Now the part that may matter to you is that I will be dumping some of my test results and data for the benefit of the community and potentially for the benefit of me (which will hopefully come in the forms of suggestion or ideas).
This morning I heat treated a piece of Moso Bamboo with a propane torch until it became nice and browned. Which I then sectioned and took to my university's microscopy lab where I took some pictures at 40x of some heat treated and non heat treated samples.
Moso Bamboo:
Heat treated cross section at 40x:
Note, the little silver bits are actually pieces of metal which got lodged into the bamboo while sanding it to get a better finish for the microscope.
Non Heat treated Moso at 40x:
If anyone has any questions or concerns please let me know and I'll do my best to address them as quickly and accurately as possible.
This morning I heat treated a piece of Moso Bamboo with a propane torch until it became nice and browned. Which I then sectioned and took to my university's microscopy lab where I took some pictures at 40x of some heat treated and non heat treated samples.
Moso Bamboo:
Heat treated cross section at 40x:
Note, the little silver bits are actually pieces of metal which got lodged into the bamboo while sanding it to get a better finish for the microscope.
Non Heat treated Moso at 40x:
If anyone has any questions or concerns please let me know and I'll do my best to address them as quickly and accurately as possible.
10-10-11, 06:19 AM
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Canaboo
An epoxy matrix is about 95% mechanical bond, hemp is full of natural oils especially the raw hemp fiber (that I used). I shouldn't need to state this but, you know that smell when you open the bag, that's the oils making that smell.
As a result of these 2 facts you can safely assume that hemp will never be fully adhered to the epoxy matrix. It can move within the matrix. I'll offer you an easy tensile test as well. Take one strand of hemp and pull it apart with your hands. It's not easy but you can do it, or at least I can. Now take 1 strand of carbon fiber and try the same thing. The carbon strand should cut your fingers off before it breaks. It also has nothing on it to inhibit the bond.
Trust me, I wanted hemp to work, I used to own/operate a head/hemp shop in the Keys and I really wanted hemp to work, which is why I use it as a money layer. No one wants it to be functional in this regard more than me.
It simply is not suitable for advanced composites as stand alone structure.
That said...do whatever you want. If you have some magic touch and it works for you sweet. If I were doing that though, I would expect to be doing a lot of warranty work.
Andy
An epoxy matrix is about 95% mechanical bond, hemp is full of natural oils especially the raw hemp fiber (that I used). I shouldn't need to state this but, you know that smell when you open the bag, that's the oils making that smell.
As a result of these 2 facts you can safely assume that hemp will never be fully adhered to the epoxy matrix. It can move within the matrix. I'll offer you an easy tensile test as well. Take one strand of hemp and pull it apart with your hands. It's not easy but you can do it, or at least I can. Now take 1 strand of carbon fiber and try the same thing. The carbon strand should cut your fingers off before it breaks. It also has nothing on it to inhibit the bond.
Trust me, I wanted hemp to work, I used to own/operate a head/hemp shop in the Keys and I really wanted hemp to work, which is why I use it as a money layer. No one wants it to be functional in this regard more than me.
It simply is not suitable for advanced composites as stand alone structure.
That said...do whatever you want. If you have some magic touch and it works for you sweet. If I were doing that though, I would expect to be doing a lot of warranty work.
Andy
10-10-11, 08:24 AM
#42
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Before using any natural fiber I wash it several times with a degreasing solution and rinse it with acetone after a final drying. That greatly enhances the bond.
Just poppiing open a bag of natural fibres that you have no idea of how it's been handled and processed is likely a poor recipe for a lasting bond.
Having said that I don't actually use hemp in particular for the reasons you state. Linen is much cleaner and just as strong. There are several other choices that glue much better with less effort at cleaning them first. Abaca, Coir, Ramie etc.
Linen in particular is used in some pretty advanced high pressure situation composites.
So is cotton canvas.
It can be done.
Just poppiing open a bag of natural fibres that you have no idea of how it's been handled and processed is likely a poor recipe for a lasting bond.
Having said that I don't actually use hemp in particular for the reasons you state. Linen is much cleaner and just as strong. There are several other choices that glue much better with less effort at cleaning them first. Abaca, Coir, Ramie etc.
Linen in particular is used in some pretty advanced high pressure situation composites.
So is cotton canvas.
It can be done.
10-10-11, 06:48 PM
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Touche'
Right on. I'm just explaining why from my point of view it has a high chance of failure. The resin system I use (Mas) directs against using acetone for prep (with any surface). There are obviously other resin systems for which it is fine (goujon, sp, etc). It's funny because I feel like there are many different ways of making the same part, and none of them are necessarily wrong. Take your earlier statement about not trusting foam, As a professional laminator nearly every part I've ever made has had a core material involved (I like Divinycell H80). The foam they use is bad news in less than the 10# density, although I don't know the weight of their foam. We just work differently and it sounds to me like you've done your homework and research and simply came to a different conclusion than I did. Respect.
Andy
Right on. I'm just explaining why from my point of view it has a high chance of failure. The resin system I use (Mas) directs against using acetone for prep (with any surface). There are obviously other resin systems for which it is fine (goujon, sp, etc). It's funny because I feel like there are many different ways of making the same part, and none of them are necessarily wrong. Take your earlier statement about not trusting foam, As a professional laminator nearly every part I've ever made has had a core material involved (I like Divinycell H80). The foam they use is bad news in less than the 10# density, although I don't know the weight of their foam. We just work differently and it sounds to me like you've done your homework and research and simply came to a different conclusion than I did. Respect.
Andy
10-11-11, 06:28 AM
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I'm not saying foam composites aren't a good idea I would just want to "make" the foam around the lugs rather than inserting the bamboo into the foam blocks.
By "make" I mean glue the bamboo with miter joints and then make a fillet joint with micro-baloons or mlled fibre of some sort so there is a considerable amount of structural integrity and then lay the reinforcement on top of that.
The acetone warning that many Epoxy manufacturers cauition against using may be referring to the typical re-claimed acetone that is readily available. That can be contaminated with several other substances, oils in particular that will interfere with a bond.
It is possible to get "virgin acetone" from Aircraft Spruce that doesn't have this problem. You could check with MAS and see if that is a possibility.
By "make" I mean glue the bamboo with miter joints and then make a fillet joint with micro-baloons or mlled fibre of some sort so there is a considerable amount of structural integrity and then lay the reinforcement on top of that.
The acetone warning that many Epoxy manufacturers cauition against using may be referring to the typical re-claimed acetone that is readily available. That can be contaminated with several other substances, oils in particular that will interfere with a bond.
It is possible to get "virgin acetone" from Aircraft Spruce that doesn't have this problem. You could check with MAS and see if that is a possibility.
01-13-12, 03:18 PM
#45
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bump
I wanted this thread back on the first page. I got a new batch of bamboo for my next frame. This new stuff is MUCH thicker in the walls of the tubes and should make a much better frame. The first stuff I used, I cut myself from a neighbors yard. I have noticed tha it is some of the smallest bambo growing around here. I think I mistakenly picked some of the most flexible bambo possible.
The new stuff is super thick and should be nice and stiff.
I also got a bunch of 2" carbon fiber tape - woven carbon fiber cloth. This will help strengthen my joints a lot more than just plain carbon tow of my first frame. I also got some 2" Kevlar tape a bit cheaper than the carbon tape.
The carbo and Kevlar tape is not sticky, it is just is called tape. The stuff I got is 2" wide and woven in a 90* pattern.
I wanted this thread back on the first page. I got a new batch of bamboo for my next frame. This new stuff is MUCH thicker in the walls of the tubes and should make a much better frame. The first stuff I used, I cut myself from a neighbors yard. I have noticed tha it is some of the smallest bambo growing around here. I think I mistakenly picked some of the most flexible bambo possible.
The new stuff is super thick and should be nice and stiff.
I also got a bunch of 2" carbon fiber tape - woven carbon fiber cloth. This will help strengthen my joints a lot more than just plain carbon tow of my first frame. I also got some 2" Kevlar tape a bit cheaper than the carbon tape.
The carbo and Kevlar tape is not sticky, it is just is called tape. The stuff I got is 2" wide and woven in a 90* pattern.
07-25-12, 01:34 PM
#46
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bump
I wanted this thread back on the first page. I got a new batch of bamboo for my next frame. This new stuff is MUCH thicker in the walls of the tubes and should make a much better frame. The first stuff I used, I cut myself from a neighbors yard. I have noticed tha it is some of the smallest bambo growing around here. I think I mistakenly picked some of the most flexible bambo possible.
The new stuff is super thick and should be nice and stiff.
I also got a bunch of 2" carbon fiber tape - woven carbon fiber cloth. This will help strengthen my joints a lot more than just plain carbon tow of my first frame. I also got some 2" Kevlar tape a bit cheaper than the carbon tape.
The carbo and Kevlar tape is not sticky, it is just is called tape. The stuff I got is 2" wide and woven in a 90* pattern.
I wanted this thread back on the first page. I got a new batch of bamboo for my next frame. This new stuff is MUCH thicker in the walls of the tubes and should make a much better frame. The first stuff I used, I cut myself from a neighbors yard. I have noticed tha it is some of the smallest bambo growing around here. I think I mistakenly picked some of the most flexible bambo possible.
The new stuff is super thick and should be nice and stiff.
I also got a bunch of 2" carbon fiber tape - woven carbon fiber cloth. This will help strengthen my joints a lot more than just plain carbon tow of my first frame. I also got some 2" Kevlar tape a bit cheaper than the carbon tape.
The carbo and Kevlar tape is not sticky, it is just is called tape. The stuff I got is 2" wide and woven in a 90* pattern.
08-15-12, 06:02 PM
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How are you guys bonding the metal components to the bamboo? I work with glass/epoxy for high performance sail boats and am bamboo Bike frame curious. Was hoping to one day attend the B.BikeStudio build sessions and see first hand how it goes. Wanted a hybrid frame with disc brakes, IGH & CarbonBelt drive. They did not have their frame & component design ready for all that yet.
08-20-12, 12:07 PM
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How are you guys bonding the metal components to the bamboo? I work with glass/epoxy for high performance sail boats and am bamboo Bike frame curious. Was hoping to one day attend the B.BikeStudio build sessions and see first hand how it goes. Wanted a hybrid frame with disc brakes, IGH & CarbonBelt drive. They did not have their frame & component design ready for all that yet.
The BBS is ready for the build you want now.
They don't use miter joints which likely explains the hemp lug failure.
08-27-12, 07:28 AM
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For structural bonding and coving (filleting) toughened epoxy is the best choice. It has more flexibility which helps in failure avoidance. It is also more expensive than a laminating resin and you probably won't use enough in 1 or 2 bikes to justify the purchase.
The second best route (read as cheapest and functional) is adding filler to your laminating resin and using that for bonding and coving. It has it's own pitfalls though. If you use microballoons or q-fill, for example, as your thickening agent you will get a brittle, easily breakable bond and fillet. Most manufacturers will have recommendations for their resins.
I have to back up Canaboo on the prep. Prep is everything when working with epoxy. Different materials require different prep. Once again it is usefull to check with your epoxy manufacturer as they will have tested various methods with various materials and will know the best approach for their epoxy.
The second best route (read as cheapest and functional) is adding filler to your laminating resin and using that for bonding and coving. It has it's own pitfalls though. If you use microballoons or q-fill, for example, as your thickening agent you will get a brittle, easily breakable bond and fillet. Most manufacturers will have recommendations for their resins.
I have to back up Canaboo on the prep. Prep is everything when working with epoxy. Different materials require different prep. Once again it is usefull to check with your epoxy manufacturer as they will have tested various methods with various materials and will know the best approach for their epoxy.
