Bike Forums - A few questions about Fillet Brazing

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)

- Framebuilders (https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/)

- - A few questions about Fillet Brazing (https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/866809-few-questions-about-fillet-brazing.html)

I made a paste using Forney brazing flux.. its a ***** to get off (boiling water), but I built up a nice fillet with it in much less time and didn't cook the filler at all. I'm not sure the terminology, but the brass wet out real nice and I was able to flow it around and get good penetration in the joint. I'm going to order some LFB Light from cycledesign today, so I can only imagine how nice that will work compared to the cheapo stuff I just tried. I also used a # 3 tip opposed to the #5 I was using. I got a nice little feather and that helped me keep the heat where I wanted it. Difference is night a day!

thanks. Let us know what you think when you get the good stuff

[Partial QUOTE=unterhausen;15171399] Don't know what else to say because I barely have any idea of what it is I do while brazing. I shouldn't tell you this, but my goal is to produce a fillet that doesn't need filing. Some days I actually pull that off. I want to get a helmet cam and video myself brazing. I have an extra pair of didymium brazing glasses that I could duct tape to the lens.[/QUOTE]

U; However you do what you do, I would say you do it well. Mine don't often look as good as the BB pix you posted. Am still trying to get a few in a row that require little to no filing. When I first started I had a habit of trying to get out of trouble by pouring in more heat like you said and getting that spitting in return... My mentor would keep asking me if I was really going to keep trying to piss off the joint or was I going to just relax and let it happen? Funny now, looking back on it. Wasn't so funny at the time!

Wow, thanks for all of the information. You guys are awesome! I'm gonna be going to the nearby Airgas store someday soon to see if they have what I need. I went to the Henry James website, but I couldn't find the filler/flux. Has anyone else noticed how TERRIBLE their website design is?

yes, the Henry James website is horrible. They don't have a page for the flux, it's in the price list. Probably best to just call them anyway

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 15192777)

yes, the Henry James website is horrible. They don't have a page for the flux, it's in the price list. Probably best to just call them anyway

HJ is rebuilding the site and should be updated in the next 3-4 months (so says their facebook). Seems like most framebuilding supply websites are realllly bad/dated or just poorly organized.

So I have a couple more materials questions. What are your files (and sizes) of choice? From what I've read, most people really like Nicholson, but the older ones are better than the newer produced ones? Also, what brand of emory cloth is preferable? The ones I'm using now are beat up old Chinese garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seankanary (Post 15196475)

Doug Fattic kindly sent me this material to answer a similar question(hope you don't mind me posting this Doug):

Section 1: File and file handle ordering suggestions:
My recommendation is to get only the best-known quality name brands like Simonds, Grobet or Nickolson. Lately we have gotten good results with “Save Edge” files. It is a company that cuts the teeth for their files in Ohio but has the blanks imported. They also offer a resharpening service. There are other quality brands from other countries but they are not commonly available here in the States. I would ignore any cheap or “import” files as they don’t cut as well or last as long. Recently Nickolson started making their files in Brazil instead of the USA and they don’t seem to stay sharp as long as they used to although they work okay. It will say at the bottom of the file in which country they are made in case you are buying from some old stock in a hardware store that might still have some USA made ones. Simonds files have a slightly flatter half round shape. They also have a black Maxi-Sharp model in some lengths cuts - which is a black oxide coating designed to increase resistance to loading and rust (or so they say).

I have a full size run (from 4” to 14”) of bastard cut half round and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] cut half round files. I also have a run of 6” round and half round Swiss Pattern files in all the different cuts from #00 to #3 as well as some 4” ones in a #0 and #2 cut. In addition I also have 8” round and half round Swiss Pattern files in a #1 cut. Each of these files is equipped with the Scroo-zon brand file handles. They are available with different size threaded holes to match various file sizes. Scroo-zon handles are made out of wood and I prefer these to the Nickolson and Grobet screw on type file handles that the handles are made out of plastic.

At a minimum, I would suggest getting a size run of American Pattern half round files from 4 to 12 inches (and the 14” if money isn’t tight) in a bastard cut. This is the coarsest cut files are made. I also suggest getting a size run of American Pattern round files in a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] cut from 4 to 14 inches as well. These work better than bastard cut files when working on the thinner walls of seat stays or bridging material. I would also recommend a 6” half round Swiss Pattern file in at least a #1 cut. My next choice would be the same file in a #2 cut. I would also buy the #00, #0 if there is enough money to get them. If you are on a budget, you can get by with the smaller sizes of American Pattern smooth cut files to remove file marks. A couple of other useful file shapes are a square file with on safe side (a side with no teeth) for filing tabs on forged dropouts and a warding file to increase slot width of seat lug binders. In the MSC catalog, the closest thing they have to a square file with a safe side is a Grobet Swiss Pattern Pillar file.

Every file should have a file handle. I prefer the kind that screw onto the file handle rather than need to be pounded in. Those always seem to eventually come loose. My favorites are the wood ones made by Scroo-zon. Plastic ones are made by Nickolson, Grobet and others. They have the advantage of having a pre-made hole in the handle for hanging on hooks on the wall. Ideally the file handle screw up as close to the body of the file as possible. In other words, pick the largest handle a file will accept and hold solidly.

Sources for files:

sources for Jewelers saws, blades and files

08-09-09, 05-11-10 and 3-11-11
Section 2: File Types:
There are 4 general categories of files: American Pattern, Swiss Pattern, Needle and Riffler files. I have suggestions for what files to get in Section 6 of this chapter.
1. American Pattern files come in 3 different cuts (or degrees of coarseness of the teeth). They are Bastard cut, Second cut and Smooth cut. They are made in 2” length increments from 4 to 14 inches. The American Pattern files are your workhorse files used to hog off metal to get the shape you want (like mitering tubes). The round and half round shapes cover most of your needs.
2. Swiss Pattern files are more refined and taper to more of a point and are much more expensive. They are usually 4, 6 or 8 inches long (occasionally 10”). The coarseness of the teeth on these files are designated in cut numbers from #00 to #4. The #00 is the coarsest (similar to a bastard cut) and the #4 is the finest (which is very fine). These files are used for shaping lug, bb shell and fork crown edges and taking out file marks left by bastard files. Every length of file in every shape will not have every cut number. The half round 6” ones with a #1 cut (for major file mark removal or lug edge shaping) and #2 (for most file mark removal) are the most commonly used in filing frame joints.
3. Swiss Pattern needle files (not to be confused with Swiss Pattern files) are your small jeweler’s type of files. There are 3 lengths, 4”, 5 ½” and 6 ¼”. They have round knurled handles. The most common cuts are #0 or #2. They often are sold in sets of 12 different shapes. They are used mostly for lug cut-outs but occasionally for taking out file marks. The most useful are 5 ½” with a #0 cut. Sometimes the 4” length works best in really tight places in lug cut-outs. My favorite shapes are a Marking file that has a half round shape with a safe side (no teeth) on the flat side and a Barrette file that is triangular shaped with teeth only on the largest flat side. The marking file is for concave curves and the Barrette for flats and convex curves. These are useful because the safe side doesn’t get caught in tight places. Other less commonly used but still useful shapes are a round file, a knife file for lengthening cut out points and a crossing file that has 2 different half round radiuses on each side.
Riffler files are curved on the ends (they are usually double ended) with small square middle handles. They are used to clean up shorelines and hard to reach areas in lug creases and around the joints on a bottom bracket shell. They come in a variety of shapes, sizes and cuts.

Section 3: File and Scroo-zon handle charts w/MSC order numbers:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Simonds American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[TD]Nickolson American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” half round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[TD]4” half round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” half round[/TD]
[TD]#5 (or #6)[/TD]
[TD]6” half round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” half round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[TD]8” half round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8 (or #7)[/TD]
[TD]10” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[TD]12” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Grobet Swiss Pattern 6” half-round #00 to #4 cut[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]14” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8 (barely)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Simonds American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[TD]Nickolson American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” round (not available)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4” round[/TD]
[TD]#3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” round[/TD]
[TD]#3 is too small and #4 is too large[/TD]
[TD]6” round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]8” round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]10” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[TD]12” round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14” round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[TD]14” round[/TD]
[TD]#7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

MSC (www.mscdirect.com) order numbers:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Simonds American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[TD]Nickolson American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]Not available[/TD]
[TD]4” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762511[/TD]
[TD]6” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759111[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762537[/TD]
[TD]8” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759210[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762552[/TD]
[TD]10” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759319[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762578[/TD]
[TD]12” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759418[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762586[/TD]
[TD]14” half round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80759517[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Simonds American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[TD]Nickolson American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]Not available[/TD]
[TD]4” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762677[/TD]
[TD]6” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758121[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762693[/TD]
[TD]8” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758220[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762719[/TD]
[TD]10” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758329[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]80762727[/TD]
[TD]12” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758428[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14” round, bastard cut[/TD]
[TD]Not available[/TD]
[TD]14” round, second cut[/TD]
[TD]80758519[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Grobet 6” Swiss Pattern Half Round Files[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[TD]Skroo-Zon File Handle Model[/TD]
[TD]MSC Order #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#00 Cut [/TD]
[TD]60204153[/TD]
[TD]#T1[/TD]
[TD]00651216[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#0 Cut[/TD]
[TD]60204302[/TD]
[TD]#T2[/TD]
[TD]00651224[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#1 Cut[/TD]
[TD]60204310[/TD]
[TD]#T3[/TD]
[TD]00651232[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#2 Cut[/TD]
[TD]60204328[/TD]
[TD]#T4[/TD]
[TD]00651240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#3 Cut[/TD]
[TD]60204351[/TD]
[TD]#T5[/TD]
[TD]00651257[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]#4 Cut[/TD]
[TD]60204344[/TD]
[TD]#T6[/TD]
[TD]00651265[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Cut Warding[/TD]
[TD]80764020[/TD]
[TD]#T7[/TD]
[TD]00651273[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” #00 Cut Ex Narrow Pillar[/TD]
[TD]60207438[/TD]
[TD]#T8[/TD]
[TD]00651281[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Save Edge American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[TD]Grobet American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” half round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[TD]4” half round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” half round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]6” half round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” half round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[TD]8” half round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” half round[/TD]
[TD]#7[/TD]
[TD]10” half round[/TD]
[TD]#7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[TD]12” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14” [/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[TD]14” half round[/TD]
[TD]#8 (barely)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Save Edge American Pattern files and length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[TD]Nickolson American Pattern files and Length[/TD]
[TD]Scroo-zon handle #[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4” round (not available)[/TD]
[TD]#3[/TD]
[TD]4” round[/TD]
[TD]#3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6” round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[TD]6” round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]8” round[/TD]
[TD]#4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[TD]10” round[/TD]
[TD]#5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12” round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[TD]12” round[/TD]
[TD]#6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14” round[/TD]
[TD]#8[/TD]
[TD]14” round[/TD]
[TD]#7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This is excellent calstar, thanks for posting this. Is there a link to the rest of the "sections" mentioned above? Really great resource.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seankanary (Post 15198000)

.. Is there a link to the rest of the "sections" mentioned above?

I don't know, you'd have to ask Doug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calstar (Post 15177844)

I have a question regarding the brazing sequence of this lug, which I presume is made from a larger ID "sliding fit" tube on the st. Once the lug is brazed to the st wouldn't heating to join the stays and tt make the lug brazing material flow again? Or is the lug brazed to the st second in sequence and silver used?
thanks, Brian

Brian; I will just throw out an idea: I think he brazed the entire joint in one heating session. It is obvious to a blindman that his talent is extreme and as such he could just pull it off... Thoughts?

Seankanary, the section of information that Calstar posted is just a small part of my framebuilding class manual I hand out to each student that takes one of my framebuilding classes. It has 9 chapters (this one is a section from my Chapter #2 on filing) with each chapter having separate sections with various topics within that subject group. Like this one that describes different types of files and which ones to buy. Another section in that chapter explains the principles of filing. For example my Chapter 3 is about brazing. It has 5 sections starting with how to operate a torch. The next section describes the principles of brazing. Section 3 is solving common brazing problems (in other words mistakes rookies are likely to make and how to fix them). Section 4 redescibes the same things again in different words so it might be easier to catch the intent of what is being written. And Section 5 is a similar chart to the file chart describing what brazing equipment to buy. The whole manual is well over 100 pages.

And no I don't post the good stuff from my manual online. I want my framebuilding class students to have a real advantage over others that are trying to learn some other way. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours writing it so I'm not about to give it away. Calstar didn't break any rules posting this part, I would have anyway but didn't have the time. This glimpse should just make it obvious to an inquiring observer I've got a very well thought out manual of framebuilding instructions for those that take one of my classes.

The Save Edge files in this chart are no longer for sale. The company decided to stop making them. Too bad, they were my favorites. They still offer a resharpening service for old files but you have to have 25 or more. Another thing to note is that MSC does not have cheap prices. They run specials all the time so if I'm ordering something from them I click on their daily specials until I get a 25% off or more.

Thanks for the info Doug, I didn't think it would be available, but worth a shot. I found a couple places online that still carry some of the save edge files, but it looks like it is just the remainders of inventory.

Just finished my first practice joint with the stuff from cycledesign....wow, I see why everyone likes this stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostforawhile (Post 15155533)

if and when you decide to do this, I can send you some short scrap pieces of 4130, I can probably fill up one of those USPS boxes, the if it fits, it ships deal. We have barrels of the stuff. It would be good to practice on

I would love to take you up on that offer. I actually live in GA as well so maybe we can skip the usps step entirely. Let me know what's up, thanks!

Update for y'all: I had the airgas store order some bronze filler rod (this guy, http://airgas.com/browse/productDeta...ct=RAD64001601 and another pound of the 3/32), and flux (http://airgas.com/browse/productDeta...ct=RAD64001786) a couple days ago. They should be arriving any second now, after that I just need to pick up some oxyfuel for the torch and I'm good to go! I have no steel tubing to practice on, but I'm gonna start out by messing around with scraps around the shop. I've got plans for some sculptures and household items. Any project suggestions?

What would be your suggestions as to remove flux post brazing? Is hot water and/or sand or bead blasting my only options?

Quote:

Originally Posted by seankanary (Post 15293388)

What would be your suggestions as to remove flux post brazing? Is hot water and/or sand or bead blasting my only options?

Other mechanical methods exist. Filing, hitting with a hammer (and a punch or chisel). Not that you'd really want to do either. Andy.

I find that a large bowl of hot water is big enough to get the flux off of most frame parts

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 15294995)

I find that a large bowl of hot water is big enough to get the flux off of most frame parts

That was going to be my next attempt... I felt like the guy on idiocracy trying to put parts of my frame in a 5 gallon bucket. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=300487

5 gallon bucket isn't really the right form factor, you want something that is wider at the top than that.
speaking of idiocracy, I guess I don't have a picture of my bowl, but I do have a picture of an ice cube formed in that bowl. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=300490

How long do you usually keep it in the water?

until the flux is gone or until I remember to go get it out, which in the ice cube case was overnight. I leave it in the water overnight if I'm not doing anything else to the bike that day, no issues with that. Actually, the only time I've had rust issues was using the wet paper towel method, not doing that any more.

I want to get a tank, but I don't have room for one and it's a lot of money. A tank that will fit half of a bike frame is still nearly $500, especially if you are going to heat it.

1 hour in hot tap water takes most of the brass flux, provided there isn't too much of it.

I made a very simple wooden frame, 24x6x6, with a layer of rubber stair mat, to soak frames (in sections) or forks.

awesome, thanks for the tips guys. I'm sure my wife will love it if I used the bathtub as a soak tank. Wishful thinking.