Wilfred Laurier

Hey, group. I was getting started on a Spring tuneup/reconfigure of my Cyclops lugged steel road bike, and I think I have found a crack on the seatstay junction:



My question is - do any of you think there is any chance this is a crack in the paint, and the bike may have some miles left in it? I also see a much more obvious crack at the bottom of the seatpost clamp slot, but I am less worried about that.

My father bought this bike for me when I was 17 and getting more involved in road racing. It was made by Mike Mullholland and Sons in Toronto. I believe it was made for the 1991 Toronto bike show as (I think) a showcase of some innovative lugwork. It is made of True Temper RC tubing, which according to an old brochure I found online, is designed for riders 190 lbs or less, and I may have been within the approved weight range for ~2 months in 1995, and well above it the rest of the time. The irony is that the crack, if it is a crack, does not seem to be in the steel, but in the filler of the joint.

Some years I did thousands of kms on this bike, other years it sat mostly idle - including most of the past 6 years that I have been living in a small town with almost no paved roads suitable for riding. I also rode it while I was working as a courier in Toronto in the late 90s, and for a year as a commuter fitted with a rack and fenders. So this bike definitely does not owe me anything. Just for sentimental reasons I was hoping that someone could tell me that this is in fact not a crack, but that seems unlikely.

I have an aluminum touring frame waiting in the wings to build up with most of the parts from this bike, but it will break my heart to do it.

So - what do you folks think?

tuz

It's hard to tell. I think If you'd have to strip the pain around the crack to be sure.

JerrySTL

I agree with tuz that you need to strip the paint to really see if it's a crack. When I worked on aircraft there were non-destructive inspection techniques of spraying a chemical on the crack then putting a black light on it. If there was a crack, it would really show up. But even that required the paint to be removed.

As it's a steel frame, a framebuilder could problem fix it if the bike has that much sentimental value to you.

If not, better safe than sorry.

Canaboo

Spread the stays a bit and watch that spot. Looks cracked to me.

unterhausen

trying to visualize where that is. It looks cracked. Seat stays can crack, people sometimes don't take that too seriously

There are poor man's dye penetrant tests. I think some people use oil. Apply oil, flex it around, wipe off oil, and see if any weeps out

Wilfred Laurier

Stripping the paint is a good idea. I will do that before I make any final decision on the fate of this frame. Thanks!

Wilfred Laurier

I tried this, but the brake bridge prevents the upper part of the steys from deflecting any real amount.

Wilfred Laurier

It is the bottom of the joint between the seatstay and the seat tube. You can see the bottom of the seatpost clamp slot in the first picture. To get an idea of scale you can see the brake cable housing in that picture as well. The 'crack' goes about half way around the joint. I noticed what looked like the beginnings of a crack last year and I have been checking it periodically for any growth, and it has definitely grown. I would guess that is a bad sign.

In my mind, a road bike is supposed to be ridden fast. I have been up over 80 km/h on this bike when I trusted it 100%. I cannot imagine any scenario where if the frame were to break at that type of speed that I don't at least wind up in the hospital. Also, the road riding that I get to do around here is often partially on busy highways with little or no paved shoulder, and losing control for even an instant could be very serious. I will not take that kind of chance with my life.

I work with a bunch of NDE people so I wouldn't be surprised if I can get a few ml of flourescent penetrant dye to do a proper test.

tuz

Btw it looks like there is a crack at the bottom of the clamp slot?

Wilfred Laurier

Definitely yes.

ksisler

OP; Seen way too many bikes with poorly prepped paint jobs and/or poorly maintained surfaces showing cracks to feel comfortable judging the frame tubes or the welds one way or the other based on the pix provided. Expecially around the flexed areas such as the seat post fixing bolt. Frankly most times it is just paint failing to hold up.

But if it's more than a paint issue, you really want to get to the bottom of it immediately so you can save the frame and your bod from more serious damage... Think about where the broken sharp ends of the seat stays will end up if worse comes to worse... its not a pretty sight.

I think you are just going to have to put on a bit of paint stripper and repeat until get down to the bare metal and then examine it closely. Then it is either a relatively small repair job or a bit of paint touchup...

FWIW; I have never been fond of the seat stays terminating out side of the seat tube. Just not a lot of contact area... Sort of a break waiting to happen (although it rarely does). Preference would be to bring them in together a cm or so below the clamp... then one can braze the two of them together and braze them onto the base of the lug. Seen quite a few builders do it that way and it always makes me nod in apppreciation of the inherent strength of the joint done that way.
/K

unterhausen

I am hesitant to call that a crack because I'm not sure how it would flex enough to crack. What does it look like on the other side?

Wilfred Laurier

The builder had a reputation for stellar paint jobs and mediocre construction. I think I am making an assumption about the nature of that crackbased on his repuation until I have proven otherwise.
Also, I have had this bike for approx. 20 years, and besides a few obvious scratches and rubbed off patches, the paint has held up perfectly.

I believe what you are describing is called 'fastback' seatstays. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

It looks pretty OK on the other side. The stress in that joint would likely not be entirely due to flex, but probably due to the shear stress of 3 grams of brass brazing rod (or whatever) between the stay and the seat tube supporting a ~260 lb bag of meat.

unterhausen

If properly executed, that joint is plenty strong and will never fail. The only failures in that type of seatstay joint that I have seen are where the stay was too thin or the brazing was bad. The brazing there looks ok, but it could be that the builder managed to cover up some defects. The builder has to get the filler to flow under the stay, it's easy to just build a fillet on each side and that is pretty weak in a fatigue-prone area.

e-RICHIE

What you have there is a result of the wrong filler for the task (not enough elasticity), or a clearance issue in which the maker tried to span some space where the stay and lug contact patch didn't exist, or a case of the filler cooling too quickly causing shrinkage, or a combination of errors. The stay will probably not come off the lug, and the crack may take years to propagate further. But it is a crack and it's in the filler puddle not the two steel parts it should be holding together.

Wilfred Laurier

I would like to believe that, but I first noticed it a year (or maybe two) ago as a barely visible line about a third as long as is now. I seldom ride this bike due to lack of paved roads near my home - maybe two or three rides in total over the past two years - and the crack has grown significantly. You may be right, but I will need more than a logical guess to begin riding this frame again.

koolerb

kinda looks like that defect was there before painted.

Wilfred Laurier

It may very well have been a poor joint, but this bike has gone thousands and thousands of kms through all weather and terrain.

Plus the builder died a few years ago - I don't think I will be calling his widow demanding a warranty repair

e-RICHIE

You'd prefer an illogical guess?!
Don't ride it then.

Wilfred Laurier

that is illogical advice i will take

busdriver1959

What's the worst that could actually happen if you keep riding it? I realize that the absolute worst case is a complete frame collapse with the stay skewering your thigh. But would that happen? An awful lot of joints would have to fail at the same time for that. I suspect that if your stay junction failed you would notice a funny noise, find the stay detached and face the problem of calling someone to give you a ride home.

Wilfred Laurier

worst thing that could happen
i think
is riding on the side of the road
and the seat stay detaches and i lose control
and ride in front of a dump truck
and get squished

i like to ride fast
and i dont want a bike under me that i dont trust 100%

i will consider getting the cyclops frame fixed in the future
but i have transferred most of the parts onto an aluminum touring frame to ride this summer

taras0000

If it's a Cyclops you are definitely safer taking it off the road. I've had a Cyclops before that had no problems ( I had bought it used), but I've also seen more instances of problems on those bikes than problem free bikes. Gaps in the fillet/tube area and peeling lugs are some. To be a framebuilder you must be part craftsman and part artisan. Mike was definitely more artisan than craftsman. Great paint and he was always interested in trying something new when it came to frame design. There are some builders that I wouldn't hesitate to say their crafting abilities are 100%. Mike's were about 80% in my opinion. It's not that His bikes weren't beautifully constructed. There were huge amounts of attention to detail in his bicycles. Just a few more frame failures than some other custom builders I've come across.

taras0000

A little OT but still concerning Cyclops.

News of Mike's Passing
https://www.canadiancyclist.com/dailynews.php?id=9216

A little more info via "bicyclebits" on Bikeforums.net "

Mike traditionally re-painted other brands with Cyclops colours when owners wanted quick turnaround and a low price. Remember, these bikes were tools for racing not wall art. He stickered several frames that I saw with a Painted By Cyclops sticker on the non-drive side of the top tube by the seatcluster. There was no intent to decieve, just an honest paint job at a fair price. Mike also did restorations that were superb but those often entailed long waits for decals from overseas and racers needed their bikes and simply wouldn't wait and didn't much care what name was on the bike. Mike was proud of the paint they put on the Cyclops framesets but did complain to me once about the tendency of the decals to not fully "snuggle" down under the clearcoat"

Some of Mike's works
https://forallmyfriends.com/2012/07/12/cyclops/

At the old Win-Del track
https://www.bikecult.com/works/archiv.../cyclopsT.html

Early Aero road bike
https://velospace.org/node/39580

An older TT bike
https://classiccycleus.com/home/cyclops/

A literaly Semi-naked frame
https://velocult.com/bikes/cyclops-track-frame/



Scroll down almost halfway
https://straightupcycles.wordpress.com/2011/07/

A double stay version
"I think I gave that frame to Ken Cools and he must have brought it down there to New Zealand... Funny though! The story of the frame is this... A Canadian ex racer turned frame builder by the name of Mike Mulholland was Cyclops Bicycles. That frame finished fourth in the Kilo at a World Cup, was raced at a World Championships, Pan Am Games, and won Canadian Nationals twice. It was a nice, strong frame, but was always short on me. Good luck selling it, I hope it gets many years of use still! Mike would've liked that it was still being used.

Jim Fisher. "
https://www.skullbikeclub.com/news/?p=2831
https://www.sjforums.net/index.php?/t...g-stem-w-bars/
And if you can read Russian (don't feel like translating) - https://thisiszookraine.blogspot.ca/2...ulholland.html


enjoy,
taras

Wilfred Laurier

Thanks for the compilation, taras0000.

Everything you said agrees with my own experience and things I have heard other more experienced bicycle industry types say. When I got my bike (in ~92 I think), the chap at the shop in Thunder Bay told me about the lengths Mike would go to to find the right paint for a demanding customer. And another guy, an older shop owner in Ottawa, told me he was never impressed with Mike's building skills, but always liked his experiments. My bike is one of those experiments - the seat cluster and top-tube/head-tube joints are dropped 2" below the top of the seat and head tubes, probably to make a bigger fitting bike ride like a smaller bike.

Mike's '80%' construction was more than good enough for most race bikes, which are far more likely to die from misadventure than from a fatigued slightly substandard joint. I did a lot of things on my bike that should not be done on a racing bike, especially a racing bike made from a tube set with maximum weight 50 lbs lighter than the rider. It gave me many many many miles of riding joy and it can retire now without owing me anything.