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Sourcing a Lightweight Steel Frame

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Sourcing a Lightweight Steel Frame

Old 11-02-14, 11:16 PM
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Duane Behrens
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Sourcing a Lightweight Steel Frame

Riding a carbon 2009 Specialized Tarmac and an '84 steel-framed Raleigh Super Course.

Both bikes seem compliant enough over small bumps. On rougher roads, however, the carbon bike seems to reach a limit beyond which it becomes harsh; jarring. The steel bike glides over the same rough road with much more aplomb. Fitted with newer components - new brakes, brake hoods, wheels, derailleur, etc. - the steel bike has therefore become the bike of choice most mornings. It' simply a more comfortable - and therefore more enjoyable - riding experience.

With one drawback: At 23.5 lbs for steel, vs. 18.5 lbs for the carbon bike (both ready-to-ride), the steel bike introduces a weight penalty that shows on long steep climbs.

I've heard there are steel frames out there that can be purchased and built to an 18.5 lb. riding weight. If so, I envision a bike that provides the comfort of steel, along with the light weight of a middle market carbon bike.

In short . . . I want one.

Any advice and/or sources for such a frame - road bike only (I'm not looking for a transcontinental mule or cyclocross) - would be much appreciated. 130 dropouts, I guess, capable of a freehub and 10-speed cassette, short- or medium-cage Ultegra RD, integrated shifters, etc.

in other words, a modern Tarmac package fitted to a modern - aka lightweight - steel frame. Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-03-14, 08:26 AM
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Custom Bicycles from Waterford Precision Cycles
If I could get any steel "all rounder" bike I wanted I'd get a Waterford, I think.
There's some frame builders in Michigan I'd talk to also: Quiring Cycles or Helm Cycles - Home
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Old 11-03-14, 09:18 AM
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If budget is a factor, Waterford also produces the Gunnar line of TIG welded steel frames. A good example is the Roadie model for $900 (frame only) with OS2 tubing. Custom "made to measure" Roadies cost $1,250 ($350 upcharge). Depending on frame size, it's not that difficult to get a built up steel frame bike like the Roadie to weigh 18 pounds with a threadless carbon fiber fork.
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Old 11-03-14, 09:24 AM
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Why not sub 15 lbs?

The lightest custom racing bicycles | Lighter than carbon fiber | The Steel Rodriguez Outlaw
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Old 11-03-14, 09:57 AM
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No reason, but a 54cm steel frame using the heat treated air-hardening OS steel tubing both Rodriguez and Gunnar use will weigh 3 to 3.5 pounds regardless of which builds it. From there it's the weight of components that will determine the weight of the bike, and high end low weight components aren't cheap.
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Old 11-03-14, 10:10 AM
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The compliance you are feeling in the steel bike, could be mainly from the curved steel fork.
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Old 11-03-14, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
With one drawback: At 23.5 lbs for steel, vs. 18.5 lbs for the carbon bike (both ready-to-ride), the steel bike introduces a weight penalty that shows on long steep climbs.
I'd say that unless there is someone with a stopwatch you shouldn't be able to notice any difference.
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Old 11-03-14, 10:31 AM
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There's a ton of framebuilders out there who produce steel frames that can be built into a lightweight bike. Take any 3lb frame (give or take an oz. or three) and it can be ridable in the 15-17lb. range. It's not really about the frame weight. High quality steel frames will hover around the three pound mark. All it takes is bucks for the lightweight components. There are several who've built 12# steel frame bikes. Rob English is one name that comes to mind.

For my personal use I build my own steel frames. Two I currently ride are 17 and 17lb- 5 oz respectively. Both frames are are in the 1500-1600g range. One has a carbon fork, the other steel (and not another carbon part in sight). It's all about the components. If I were willing to throw extra bucks at them, 15-16lb is very doable. I should mention that both of these bikes are as different as night-and-day in terms of compliance, handling, and feel, and that's by design. It's all about the tube selection, and designing for the intended purpose. That said...

It's all too easy to say that steel "provides the better ride." To a degree it's true, but I think generally it's a popular misconception. I've ridden carbon frames- aluminum and steel frames. All have ranged from what I would consider to be rigid and stiff, to more compliant and comfortable. It's not so much the material as is the design. It depends on the intended use. There's compromises to both ends of the scale. So don't fall into the trap and generalize steel frames (especially the light weight bikes) as being "more comfortable."
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Old 11-03-14, 10:36 AM
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what components will get you to sub-18 pounds with a steel fork? What does a fork/frame have to weigh to get a complete bike below 18 pounds?
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Old 11-03-14, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
what components will get you to sub-18 pounds with a steel fork? What does a fork/frame have to weigh to get a complete bike below 18 pounds?
Gunnar Message Board posts re Roadie weights

Originally Posted by rcoop
Took delivery of my Roadie a few weeks ago and am very happy - bike has the ride qualilty I was expecting and is nicely balanced with very good power transfer. SRAM Force, Ritchey WCS, Mavic Ksyrium Elites, Roadie Steel Fork - 18.5 lbs with pedals - not bad for a steel frame and fork but who counting anyways.
18.5 pounds with steel fork and pedals, but sadly no mention of frame size.
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Old 11-03-14, 07:07 PM
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A long time ago i went through a similar experience. I had this old prized 1970 Cinelli that i loved, but I bought a Myata racing frame and built it up with an integrated Ritchey prototype seat and attached post. When riding it I noticed that the Miyata seemed much than the Cinelli. I went around telling my friends that i thought that the Myata was made of some sort of Tange spong-tubing, and was super-soft. Years later I traded the Ritchey seat and post for a different seat and post. All of a sudden my sponge frame was transformed into a "stiff" frame. Moral of the story: there are more factors to how hard/ soft a bike is than just the frame material. Consider the basic contact points, as well as tire width/inflation pressure, geometry (chainstay length), seat cush, handle bar wrap (recently I tried putting pieces of flip flop under my handlebar tape to soften up my bike with great success) I would highly recommend trying a few things to "soften" the carbon bike up first.
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Old 11-03-14, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by duanedr View Post
The compliance you are feeling in the steel bike, could be mainly from the curved steel fork.
Not necessarily from the curve alone, but from the diameter and thickness of the fork blades. I have one production bike with a very nice fork curve with lots of rake, but the legs are really rigid and the fork is not very compliant.
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Old 11-04-14, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
what components will get you to sub-18 pounds with a steel fork? What does a fork/frame have to weigh to get a complete bike below 18 pounds?
Fork weight comparison- 425g carbon vs 540g for the steel fork. That's about 4 oz. Integrated seat post w/215g saddle. 225g bars with 98g custom stem. 1300 gram wheelset- lightweight folding tires. Rival cranks, with the remainder of components being Ultegra (DR's,) Dura-Ace (shifters,) and Sram cassette, and approx. 100g of paint. Easy-peasy!

I should probably mention that these are smaller frames. I'm short.
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Old 11-05-14, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
what components will get you to sub-18 pounds with a steel fork? What does a fork/frame have to weigh to get a complete bike below 18 pounds?
My custom Steve Rex weighed in at 18-lb, 7-oz with cages (but no bottles), Garmin GSC-10 (can't remember if the Edge was mounted or not). It's a steel frame and fork, with Campy Record EPS (12-25 Chorus cassette with Chorus chain); wheels are White Industries hubs laced 24/28 (2x) to Velocity A23s rolling on Michelin Pro4 Service Course 700x23s, Ritchey WCS bar and stem, Thomson seat post, Fizik Aliante VS saddle, Speedplay X-series (stainless steel) pedals, Cinelli tape.

There is certainly some weight to be saved, but to get it down to sub-18 lbs would be pricey (not that it wasn't pricey enough as it was).
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Old 11-13-14, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KenshiBiker View Post
My custom Steve Rex weighed in at 18-lb, 7-oz with cages (but no bottles), Garmin GSC-10 (can't remember if the Edge was mounted or not). It's a steel frame and fork, with Campy Record EPS (12-25 Chorus cassette with Chorus chain); wheels are White Industries hubs laced 24/28 (2x) to Velocity A23s rolling on Michelin Pro4 Service Course 700x23s, Ritchey WCS bar and stem, Thomson seat post, Fizik Aliante VS saddle, Speedplay X-series (stainless steel) pedals, Cinelli tape.

There is certainly some weight to be saved, but to get it down to sub-18 lbs would be pricey (not that it wasn't pricey enough as it was).
My god. You must be enjoyiing the hell out of that bike. Congrats.
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Old 11-13-14, 09:42 AM
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Steve Rex is a great builder and a great guy. Huge local asset to our cycling community. Sounds like a great bike.
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Old 11-13-14, 11:46 AM
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A couple of comments on weight. First, weight only matters as it changes the total rolling weight. That's the frame, parts, accessories and you, your clothes and shoes. So, like 18# (bike) + 3# (WBs, toolbag, pump) + 160# + 4# (clothes and shoes) = 185#.

Lowering your bike weight by 3# makes you 1.6% faster when you are climbing 25% grades. On the flat, that weight difference will be more like 1.6% X 10% (rolling + mechanical resistance; wind resistance isn't affected by weight) = 0.16%. At 25 mph, that's 0.04 mph.

If you mass start race, weight means more because the energy to accelerate it coming out of turns and pack accelerations adds up. But there the money is best spent going light on wheels. My lightest bike is 20 pounds. (Ti road fixie (for the ride, not the weight), no attention paid to part weight at all. I selected the best parts to do their job, keeping an eye on the $$s. Quill stem, good sturdy aluminum bars, Sugino 75 crankset, 32 spoke wheels, Reynolds 531 fork, you get the idea.

Ben
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Old 11-13-14, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Duane Behrens View Post
My god. You must be enjoyiing the hell out of that bike. Congrats.
I'm riding that bike more than I ever thought I would; riding farther; climbing higher. There were a couple of weeks that I was only riding my winter commuter (an old steel Trek with rack and fenders) and when I got back on the Rex it felt like I went from driving a minivan to driving a Ferrari.

Originally Posted by Cynikal View Post
Steve Rex is a great builder and a great guy. Huge local asset to our cycling community. Sounds like a great bike.
Steve is a great guy. I couldn't be happier with his build - he nailed it. Only problem is that he left the old, crappy, worn-out motor on it .
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Old 11-13-14, 07:15 PM
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[QUOTE=79pmooney;17303513][snip]

"Lowering your bike weight by 3# makes you 1.6% faster when you are climbing 25% grades. " [QUOTE]

:-) I won't be climbing "25% grades" anytime soon. Nor will you. Or Batman or Superman or Wonder Woman or the Incredible Hulk.

Which makes it a rather odd calculation and/or premise for argument. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Old 11-13-14, 09:53 PM
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[QUOTE=Duane Behrens;17305078][QUOTE=79pmooney;17303513][snip]

"Lowering your bike weight by 3# makes you 1.6% faster when you are climbing 25% grades. "

:-) I won't be climbing "25% grades" anytime soon. Nor will you. Or Batman or Superman or Wonder Woman or the Incredible Hulk.

Which makes it a rather odd calculation and/or premise for argument. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I picked 25% just to keep the speed so slow that there is no wind resistance, even for the pros. If you climb 10% slopes slowly, the 1.6% holds. If you are a hill climbing pro, the percentage will be smaller because there will be real wind resistance. Just trying to show that even under extreme conditions, bike weight doesn't hurt you nearly as much as most think.

The final 200' vertical of Mt. Washington in New Hampshire is 22%. I've done it twice.

Ben

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Old 11-14-14, 12:12 PM
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YUP, There are rather thin wall high strength steel tube sets made . but a mass production facility is unlikely to use them ,
so you need to open up that consumer wallet to a Hand Made builder's frame prices.

when Reynolds introduced the 753 tube set , they had builders send a sample frame back to the company
to see if they did right by the requirements if the carefully made heat treated Tube set.
(as I Recall)
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Old 12-02-14, 12:11 PM
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Why not a vintage frame? I bet you could get something with Columbus SLX or Reynolds 531 tubing built to that weight.
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Old 12-02-14, 09:40 PM
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I have a Rivendell from '96 that was made by Waterford with 753 frame and 531 tubing. it has honjo fenders, 32 spoke wheels and SRAM Red group and it's about 19# if I recall correctly. Nothing on it was chosen for weight per se. Of course high end components are usually light but the seat is a steel rail Fizik, I'm using Dura Ace aluminum pedals, Ti Grammo stem and it has fenders! I could pretty easily get it below 18# with lighter wheels and removing fenders.
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Old 12-02-14, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by icepick_trotsky View Post
Why not a vintage frame? I bet you could get something with Columbus SLX or Reynolds 531 tubing built to that weight.
My take is that Reynolds 531 frames are just about never found in sub-20# bikes - certainly not with clincher tires. Columbus SLX might get you into the 19.5# range, and Reynolds 753 might get you below 19#. That being said, I think that you'd need to be doing a TON of climbing to really appreciate an 18.5# bike relative to a 19.5# bike in terms of weight. That small a difference is far more easily and cost effectively dropped from your gut and your clothes than from your bike.
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Old 12-03-14, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by D1andonlyDman View Post
you'd need to be doing a TON of climbing to really appreciate an 18.5# bike relative to a 19.5# bike in terms of weight.
that's a water bottle full vs empty and the difference might be measured in a handful of seconds for a 5 minute hard climb.

Now, if you're looking for bragging rights with your buddies, then all bets are off and call up one of the builders on this list and order up that dream bike!
A local builder, Rodriguez, is building a steel Outlaw that weights in the 13.5-16lb range in a normal sized bike. Weight and price depend up on the build up.

http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

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