Internal Gears & Belt-drive can be Big Boost for Cycling
06-02-15, 08:49 AM
#26
You gonna eat that?
Nope, don't see it happening. Too far from the norm. You need a custom frame, custom cogs custom belt.... Too much custom and it's expensive.
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
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"However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
06-02-15, 08:54 AM
#27
You gonna eat that?
Only if they get volumes enough to lower prices of the components, which hasn't happened yet. And I wouldn't hold my breath.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
06-02-15, 08:57 AM
#28
You gonna eat that?
06-02-15, 09:00 AM
#29
You gonna eat that?
Nope. IGH are heavier than derailleurs. Because they're old and fat (and have disposable income), they will spend the money to get the fastest bike they can get to make up for being old and fat. If they've bought a carbon fiber bike, they'll never consider IGH.
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
06-02-15, 09:03 AM
#30
Senior Member
I'm a sucker for an IGH. I'd try a belt, no problem, but it also means a new frame that's belt-compatible. I've done some of the shopping. If you want to run an IGH, it makes sense to go with horizontal dropouts to avoid needing a chain tensioner. If you want to run a belt drive, you now need a special frame that can pass the belt through. You also want to verify that the belt drive is compatible with the hub you want to use.
I'm sold on the convenience. I got to work with greasy hands today because I had to play with my chain on the way in. But I don't think the market is there yet. Deciding you want a belt drive really limits your bike options.
I'm sold on the convenience. I got to work with greasy hands today because I had to play with my chain on the way in. But I don't think the market is there yet. Deciding you want a belt drive really limits your bike options.
06-02-15, 11:35 AM
#31
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My problem is the IGH I want costs almost as much as my Fargo.
06-02-15, 01:35 PM
#32
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The main things preventing more people from bicycle-commuting are:
1. don't want to ride in inclement weather
2. no place to park bike
3. bike will get stolen
I don't think IGH or belt drives are a significant answer to any of the above.
1. don't want to ride in inclement weather
2. no place to park bike
3. bike will get stolen
I don't think IGH or belt drives are a significant answer to any of the above.
06-04-15, 10:29 AM
#33
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4. Too much effort
The belt-drive appeals to people who already ride and are looking for a lower maintenance/cleaner bike. I cannot see a first time buyer even considering one.
The only "innovation" in bicycles that has a chance of significantly increasing ridership in the US is e-bikes.
06-04-15, 11:00 AM
#34
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IGH equipped bikes, especially relatively simple and reasonably priced units, are very practical for non competitive local cycling. Belt drive offers little to insignificant to no added value for the typical cyclist and are an alleged solution to a non existing problem, and a pricey solution at that.
06-04-15, 12:49 PM
#35
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I would LOVE an IGH commuter (6 speeds ish?) with a belt drive. That would be optimal.
The thing is, while derailleurs are complicated, if you don't mess with them, they'll "work" for a long time. They won't work well if not adjusted, but they will WORK. I had bikes as a kid with derailleurs that worked and shifted for years without adjustments.
The thing is, while derailleurs are complicated, if you don't mess with them, they'll "work" for a long time. They won't work well if not adjusted, but they will WORK. I had bikes as a kid with derailleurs that worked and shifted for years without adjustments.
Shifting like I have ADHD I get 2500 - 4500 miles out of rear cables depending on the shifter and 4000 (lined) - indefinite (unlined) life out of rear housings.
Other people manage 10,000 - 20,000 miles.
06-04-15, 01:46 PM
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06-04-15, 02:14 PM
#37
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Ya know, I'd bet that the average cyclist has such a firm mental picture of a bicycle that a chain driven bicycle is what a bicycle is supposed to look like they can't bring themselves to ride/buy anything else.
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My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
06-04-15, 02:22 PM
#38
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I'm waiting for the belt that has a quick-connect link of some kind.
Would it take a giant trick of engineering to design one?
I don't think so.
This would remove the need for a tricky frame with two-part chainstays or seatstays, which is what you have to have now.
Would it take a giant trick of engineering to design one?
I don't think so.
This would remove the need for a tricky frame with two-part chainstays or seatstays, which is what you have to have now.
06-04-15, 08:01 PM
#39
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5. Too dangerous to ride in rush hour traffic.
The bike I use the most is a 3 speed from Bikes Direct. However, it came with a chain cover that works great.
You can Google all the problems people are having with the Nexus 8 or 7. Prices for the SpeedHub continue to go up with time and they are never on sale.
The bike I use the most is a 3 speed from Bikes Direct. However, it came with a chain cover that works great.
You can Google all the problems people are having with the Nexus 8 or 7. Prices for the SpeedHub continue to go up with time and they are never on sale.
06-04-15, 10:41 PM
#40
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Here in Japan many people use a bicycle regularly, and though there are belt-driven bikes, and even a few shaft-driven versions, 99.9% of bikes use chains. The simple solution to chains is a chain guard which fully encases the chain, and lube is added by lifting up an access cover. Since most neighbourhoods have a bike shop or repair shop of some type, getting the chain oil, or tire inflated is no problem.
Most bikes here are single speed types, some have internal gears, some have derailleurs, but most commuters seem reluctant to shift, regardless of the system. Even in when I worked in a shop in America, there were many 18 or 21 speed bikes which came into the shop for repairs, and I noticed that sometimes the cables or shifters were frozen from lack of use. The bikes were ridden regularly, but the riders never bothered with the gears.
My wife is from Japan, and has been riding a bike since she was 5 years old. When we first started riding together, I noticed she never shifted the gears on her bike. It was only after many rides that she became comfortable with using the gears, even though she had been using the same bike since she was in high school. Now she uses them without thinking.
I don't think that the type of drive or transmission is very relevant to most new riders, they are more likely to be interested in the colour and the thickness of the seat.
Most bikes here are single speed types, some have internal gears, some have derailleurs, but most commuters seem reluctant to shift, regardless of the system. Even in when I worked in a shop in America, there were many 18 or 21 speed bikes which came into the shop for repairs, and I noticed that sometimes the cables or shifters were frozen from lack of use. The bikes were ridden regularly, but the riders never bothered with the gears.
My wife is from Japan, and has been riding a bike since she was 5 years old. When we first started riding together, I noticed she never shifted the gears on her bike. It was only after many rides that she became comfortable with using the gears, even though she had been using the same bike since she was in high school. Now she uses them without thinking.
I don't think that the type of drive or transmission is very relevant to most new riders, they are more likely to be interested in the colour and the thickness of the seat.
06-04-15, 11:32 PM
#41
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I have a belt drive coupled with a NuVinci 360 on my commuter bike. It's awesome for around town. Quiet, very smooth and thus far flawless. This is Chicago so I can't speak for hill use but I'd love to have it on my big dummy. The bike itself is very heavy and the hub alone weighs about 5 pounds. I think the market is there for belts and IGH's but it's going to be a very long adoption period. The weight has to come down for urbanites who need to carry their bikes up stairs to store them inside and until they are price competitive with chains and derailleurs, I don't see them reaching critical mass.
06-05-15, 12:05 AM
#42
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In the old days Sturmey-Archer hubs were pretty cheap & derailleurs were expensive & exotic. But 70's bike boom glorified racy derailleurs & folks happily spent 2 or 3X the money on "10-speeds" that they would have spent on an old Schwinn. The bike market will now follow the auto market in emphasizing reliability & ease of use/maintenance.
06-05-15, 12:49 PM
#43
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I think gear hubs and belt drives have great utility for a lot of commuters, or would if they were more accessible. But I have to agree that oily chains is not a reason why people don't commute. More complex gearing... maybe. I know people who haven't ridden in a while and find the system of 20+ gears with 2 shifters to be intimidating (and, in truth, thinking about "appropriate shift patterns" gives me a headache), but I don't think that has a lot of bearing on why they don't ride. In the US, almost everyone grows up learning to ride a bike, and almost everyone grows out of it as soon as they learn to drive. A car will often get you to work faster, safe from the elements, not sweaty, and carrying everything you could likely want to bring with you, and, most importantly, a car is the default. We can, and should, make arguments why bike commuting might be a viable and even better option to get around, but I don't think, "look, no chain!" is going to convince anyone. I think you probably have to ride with a chain and with an assortment of gear clusters (or no gears at all) before you can see the benefit that hub gears and belt drives may offer (and many experienced cyclists are not convinced). I think we are seeing more people forgoing car ownership and using alternative transport, including bicycles, but I think it's going to be new riders who will try, and maybe adopt, some new technologies rather than the new technologies luring in new riders.
Exception possibly being some of the enclosed, electric bikes that are entering the market. They seem like they might be a good transition between a car and a bike for people reluctant to leave their cars behind.
Exception possibly being some of the enclosed, electric bikes that are entering the market. They seem like they might be a good transition between a car and a bike for people reluctant to leave their cars behind.
06-05-15, 10:11 PM
#44
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Tastes & perceptions can change quickly as seen in the 70's road bike boom & the 80's mtb boom. Same thing with cars: Americans' concept of the most desirable car quickly changed from a Cadillac-type yacht to German makes with firm seats & suspension. Fixies/SS bikes used to be very rare & ridden only by a few racers who happened to have an old track frame lying around. Now they're seen everywhere in hip urban areas.
06-05-15, 10:34 PM
#45
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Here in Japan many people use a bicycle regularly, and though there are belt-driven bikes, and even a few shaft-driven versions, 99.9% of bikes use chains. The simple solution to chains is a chain guard which fully encases the chain, and lube is added by lifting up an access cover. Since most neighbourhoods have a bike shop or repair shop of some type, getting the chain oil, or tire inflated is no problem.
Most bikes here are single speed types, some have internal gears, some have derailleurs, but most commuters seem reluctant to shift, regardless of the system. Even in when I worked in a shop in America, there were many 18 or 21 speed bikes which came into the shop for repairs, and I noticed that sometimes the cables or shifters were frozen from lack of use. The bikes were ridden regularly, but the riders never bothered with the gears.
My wife is from Japan, and has been riding a bike since she was 5 years old. When we first started riding together, I noticed she never shifted the gears on her bike. It was only after many rides that she became comfortable with using the gears, even though she had been using the same bike since she was in high school. Now she uses them without thinking.
I don't think that the type of drive or transmission is very relevant to most new riders, they are more likely to be interested in the colour and the thickness of the seat.
Most bikes here are single speed types, some have internal gears, some have derailleurs, but most commuters seem reluctant to shift, regardless of the system. Even in when I worked in a shop in America, there were many 18 or 21 speed bikes which came into the shop for repairs, and I noticed that sometimes the cables or shifters were frozen from lack of use. The bikes were ridden regularly, but the riders never bothered with the gears.
My wife is from Japan, and has been riding a bike since she was 5 years old. When we first started riding together, I noticed she never shifted the gears on her bike. It was only after many rides that she became comfortable with using the gears, even though she had been using the same bike since she was in high school. Now she uses them without thinking.
I don't think that the type of drive or transmission is very relevant to most new riders, they are more likely to be interested in the colour and the thickness of the seat.
Amsterdam another bike commuting hotspot. I've heard some Dutch riders use enclosed chains but I think most bikes don't have them. Apparently a lot of riders keep their commuters locked up outside exposed to the elements so there's a big potential market for belt-drive there. Cycling also popular in Scandinavia where folks probably aren't crazy about doing chain maintenance in freezing weather.
A local friend lived in the Netherlands for years & rode a bike over there a lot. She & husband/kids all have nice bikes but they don't ride much & have ~zero concept of bike maintenance...they leave their bikes outside the house despite ample room inside.
06-05-15, 11:23 PM
#46
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I think gear hubs and belt drives have great utility for a lot of commuters, or would if they were more accessible. But I have to agree that oily chains is not a reason why people don't commute. More complex gearing... maybe. I know people who haven't ridden in a while and find the system of 20+ gears with 2 shifters to be intimidating (and, in truth, thinking about "appropriate shift patterns" gives me a headache), but I don't think that has a lot of bearing on why they don't ride. In the US, almost everyone grows up learning to ride a bike, and almost everyone grows out of it as soon as they learn to drive. A car will often get you to work faster, safe from the elements, not sweaty, and carrying everything you could likely want to bring with you, and, most importantly, a car is the default. We can, and should, make arguments why bike commuting might be a viable and even better option to get around, but I don't think, "look, no chain!" is going to convince anyone. I think you probably have to ride with a chain and with an assortment of gear clusters (or no gears at all) before you can see the benefit that hub gears and belt drives may offer (and many experienced cyclists are not convinced). I think we are seeing more people forgoing car ownership and using alternative transport, including bicycles, but I think it's going to be new riders who will try, and maybe adopt, some new technologies rather than the new technologies luring in new riders.
Exception possibly being some of the enclosed, electric bikes that are entering the market. They seem like they might be a good transition between a car and a bike for people reluctant to leave their cars behind.
Exception possibly being some of the enclosed, electric bikes that are entering the market. They seem like they might be a good transition between a car and a bike for people reluctant to leave their cars behind.
BTW folders now a common sight, like IGH/belt they cost more than a regular bike but offer great convenience for many commuters. I always thought car + folder commuting would work great for many. Drive most of the way to downtown but park a couple miles outside & then ride the folder past blocks of gridlock.
E-bikes are getting big. A friend bought one & rides a lot more with the electric boost that makes hills manageable for less-fit riders. Model built for German/N Euro market & is advanced tech for the price with hydraulic brakes, fenders, rack & light set . InCycle TV show had interview with Greg Lemond where he endorsed e-bikes as a good way to get folks on a bike.
Folding bikes now common sight on bike path.
06-06-15, 08:56 AM
#47
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I used to do this when I was a technician, Not a folder but a regular bike in my van. The van was a nuisance to find parking for; so I would drive my van to a central point and bike to the service calls.
06-06-15, 10:02 AM
#48
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You forgot:
4. Too much effort
The belt-drive appeals to people who already ride and are looking for a lower maintenance/cleaner bike. I cannot see a first time buyer even considering one.
The only "innovation" in bicycles that has a chance of significantly increasing ridership in the US is e-bikes.
4. Too much effort
The belt-drive appeals to people who already ride and are looking for a lower maintenance/cleaner bike. I cannot see a first time buyer even considering one.
The only "innovation" in bicycles that has a chance of significantly increasing ridership in the US is e-bikes.
4) leads to 5) sweaty, stinky bodies that some people cannot abide, in themselves or others.
a 'bird bath' in the restroom, and complete change of clean clothes, was sufficient for me. although i have to admit i never solicited an opinion from my work mates.
06-06-15, 03:02 PM
#49
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Something else to consider. Back in the 80's,a couple companies put out motorcycles with EFI. But they had issues,so they didn't catch on. BMW used their car experience to put it on their motorcycles in the 90's,and the industry slowly started to change with their success. Now even Harleys are fuel injected.
The first bike belt drives had issues. Noise,belts coming off,pulley wear,jamming up in the snow. I think all the hype,followed by some teething problems has cooled people's interest in belts. I think once the technology matures they'll become more common. Suspension and disc brakes used to be exotic on bicycles,now they're commonplace.
The first bike belt drives had issues. Noise,belts coming off,pulley wear,jamming up in the snow. I think all the hype,followed by some teething problems has cooled people's interest in belts. I think once the technology matures they'll become more common. Suspension and disc brakes used to be exotic on bicycles,now they're commonplace.
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06-07-15, 10:24 AM
#50
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5. Too dangerous to ride in rush hour traffic.
The bike I use the most is a 3 speed from Bikes Direct. However, it came with a chain cover that works great.
You can Google all the problems people are having with the Nexus 8 or 7. Prices for the SpeedHub continue to go up with time and they are never on sale.
The bike I use the most is a 3 speed from Bikes Direct. However, it came with a chain cover that works great.
You can Google all the problems people are having with the Nexus 8 or 7. Prices for the SpeedHub continue to go up with time and they are never on sale.
I like the idea and the ride of a belt drive. I considered them before my most recent purchase. However a chain or belt guard was what I needed most. Ended up with a Vanmoof which has a fully enclosed chain drive and an Alfine 8. I'm quite happy with it and it will buy me time to see how the belt drive develops.
The tech at my LBS said the Alfine most often only need one early adjustment when the cable guides wear in. After that you're good to go and that initial adjustment takes only a few minutes.