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None of what these say are wrong nor do they conflict with what JohnDThompson said. Let's take these statements apart, shall we?
The "sludge" that precipitates onto the engine surfaces is water borne...burning fuel creates a bunch of water...and is, largely, the result of some engine corrosion.
Originally Posted by stdlrf11
(Post 18470314)
Bob The Oil Guy is right that the amount of carrying power of the detergent is limited. If you use Simple Green or other water based degreasers, you are probably familiar with this phenomena. If you want to remove a lot of grease with Simple Green, you have to use a large volume of it. That's what happen in the engine except the roles are reversed. You are trying to remove water rather than grease.
Originally Posted by stdlrf11
(Post 18470314)
From what I've read, engine oils contain rust inhibitors as well, so the claim that they cause rust sounds rather ridiculous.
Bottom line: motor oil is formulated to work inside an engine where it is relatively dry and very clean. It really isn't formulated to work where you are throwing water at it all the time...or even occasionally. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471061)
None of what these say are wrong nor do they conflict with what JohnDThompson said. Let's take these statements apart, shall we?
All three of those statements are true. The metal ion present in the surfactant reacts with acids that might be formed during the combustion process and prevents acids from corroding the engine parts. In chemistry, we call that neutralization. But by removing the metal ion on the detergent...surfactant and detergent can be used interchangeably...the ability of the molecule to act as a detergent is diminished or lost. The "sludge" that precipitates onto the engine surfaces is water borne...burning fuel creates a bunch of water...and is, largely, the result of some engine corrosion. The detergents don't get "consumed" as in they leave the oil. They either get neutralized or they get overwhelmed by the water from combustion late in the life of the oil. The detergents are still in the oil but they are ineffective. This is not a bad description of how a detergent works. I have a couple of issues with terminology...a detergent isn't called an "organometallic compound" nor do they "cling" to the surface of metals nor are they derived from "soaps". A "detergent" is as described, i.e. a salt of an organic fatty acid. A compound that would cling to metal surfaces or metal particles is a chelating agent and works differently than a detergent does. The metal particles do cling to water since both are polar substances and would thus be carried into the micelle. Bob The Oil Guy is right that the amount of carrying power of the detergent is limited. If you use Simple Green or other water based degreasers, you are probably familiar with this phenomena. If you want to remove a lot of grease with Simple Green, you have to use a large volume of it. That's what happen in the engine except the roles are reversed. You are trying to remove water rather than grease. The "rust inhibitors" are largely the surfactants that sequester the water and water soluble materials in the oil. Throw the oil out into the world where it is going to get a whole bunch of water in it and the surfactants are quickly overwhelmed and can no longer sequester water. Even worse, we cleaver monkeys use a lot of different salts on the road to melt ice which gets trapped in the micelles along with the water. Salt...or, more specifically, chloride ions in the salt...can start to corrode the steel in the chain. Chloride ions have an affinity for iron in steel and, in extreme cases, can lead to cracking of the chain if left in place long enough. Flushing the chain with fresh homebrew chain lube isn't likely to remove the chloride either since the chloride isn't soluble in the chain lubricant mixture. In fact, it isn't soluble in any chain lubricant mixture. Bottom line: motor oil is formulated to work inside an engine where it is relatively dry and very clean. It really isn't formulated to work where you are throwing water at it all the time...or even occasionally. |
Originally Posted by vinnyvincent
(Post 18470966)
Sorry if the bro comment was insulting, I was trying to be funny.
That's an interesting contribution. Looks like you really have it down to a science. So you say you don't clean your chain...do you just put a drop of lube on each roller and that's it? Or do you wipe with a rag once, put drops on, then wipe again later? Sounds pretty appealing and since I am only 12 dollars into this I could go get some white lightning without having taken too big of a hit. If anything, I use less of it during the winter. It can be difficult to put on when the chain is cold. I'm lucky in that I can put my bike inside during my commutes and so the chain warms up but I often forget to put on chain lube even then.
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18470970)
I use white lightning and clean my bike every week. Grit and dirt still get into the chain, even in dry socalif.
dry lube doesn't attract dirt per se but it doesn't magically repel it either.
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18470970)
The most important thing is cleaning your bike. Lube type is secondary.
Cleaning is important for all your components, not just drivetrain.
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18470970)
Doesn't matter what lube you use. Even WL has a wet lube for different conditions.
dry lube isn't the panacea, regular cleaning is. |
Originally Posted by vinnyvincent
(Post 18471099)
So what's your take on chain saw oil with odorless mineral spirits?
If you aren't seeing a theme here, I'll spell it out. I hate cleaning bikes! I love riding them. I love working on them but I'd rather do either and clean the cat's litter box before I'd clean one. |
Originally Posted by mconlonx
(Post 18470995)
Organic yak lard, FTW.
|
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471159)
If you aren't seeing a theme here, I'll spell it out. I hate cleaning bikes! I love riding them. I love working on them but I'd rather do either and clean the cat's litter box before I'd clean one.
My approach is similar in concept. I buy a $20 bottle of Rock & Roll Gold and apply it about every 100 miles (that's about twice per week in season). I follow the manufacturers application recommendations to apply liberally and wipe down thoroughly and have similar results to you. I have a clean well lubed drive train, with little fuss, no mess, and a setup that I just don't think much about until its time to replace the chain (which is a 10 minute job). That $20 bottle last me about 10k miles, or about 1 year, and I often get comments from my training group as one having the cleanest drive train they've ever seen. I'll give the drive train a quick scrub with mineral spirits maybe 2 or 3 times per year when I'm washing my bike, but that's it. As someone on this forum once said (I think it was Psimet), "Life is too short to obsess about cleaning your chain." |
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18470970)
I use white lightning and clean my bike every week. Grit and dirt still get into the chain, even in dry socalif.
dry lube doesn't attract dirt per se but it doesn't magically repel it either. The most important thing is cleaning your bike. Lube type is secondary. Cleaning is important for all your components, not just drivetrain. Doesn't matter what lube you use. Even WL has a wet lube for different conditions. dry lube isn't the panacea, regular cleaning is.
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18468811)
Exactly.
Just buy anything bike specific. Only thing you should really think about is a dry lube or a wet lube for conditions. Really, anything is fine for a bike chain. Lube is not as important as proper cleaning. That is what will give you drivetrain life.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471144)
Again, I respectfully disagree. It doesn't matter how clean the bike is. Keep the drivetrain clean and the chain lubricated and you can let the bike be as dirty as you like. For some that means spending hours per week cleaning the bike. For others, it means carrying around an extra pound of dirt.
When I wash my bike, I never mean the entire bike. Who would do that? |
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18471405)
I'm glad you could decipher my comments about keeping the drivetrain clean to mean keep the bike clean except the drivetrain.
When I wash my bike, I never mean the entire bike. Who would do that? Cleaning over all, however, does little to prolong components. I suspect that you get just as much wear out of your components as I do. You can take every piece off your bike and clean it with a tooth brush if you like but I doubt that it prolongs the life of the components any more than mine. I keep dirt out of the moving bits as much as possible by either using a lubricant that doesn't hold dirt or by choosing components with good seals to keep the dirt out. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471563)
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. To me "cleaning" a bike usually means cleaning everything...frame, wheels and drivetrain. I don't know how you came up with the idea that about thinking I meant to clean the whole bike except the drivetrain.
Cleaning over all, however, does little to prolong components. I suspect that you get just as much wear out of your components as I do. You can take every piece off your bike and clean it with a tooth brush if you like but I doubt that it prolongs the life of the components any more than mine. I keep dirt out of the moving bits as much as possible by either using a lubricant that doesn't hold dirt or by choosing components with good seals to keep the dirt out. This is why the forums are so great. |
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18471405)
When I wash my bike, I never mean the entire bike. Who would do that?
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=499312http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=499313 |
Originally Posted by dragoonO1
(Post 18471675)
Off topic, but I do. In my case, the frame and wheels are covered with retroreflective and phosphorescent tape, so dirt and debris drastically diminishes reflectivity and phosphorescence.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=499312http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=499313 The added dirt should double your drivetrain life as well. |
Sorry double post.
|
Has anyone tried using dirt as lube? I mean it's free and it's all over the place. Makes sense...
Anyhow it's supposed to be wet tomorrow and I want to ride, so I will get a chance to try the home brew. |
Originally Posted by vinnyvincent
(Post 18471791)
Has anyone tried using dirt as lube? I mean it's free and it's all over the place. Makes sense...
Anyhow it's supposed to be wet tomorrow and I want to ride, so I will get a chance to try the home brew. You have the oil already. Why not mix it with dirt? Dirt is like traction for the oil |
Originally Posted by cruiserhead
(Post 18471822)
Why not mix it with dirt? Dirt is like traction for the oil
And just to stir the pot, unless you commute in the sea, under a lake, or just in the constant falling rain, White Lightning sucks. It performs just a little worse than the worst wet lube you could choose. |
So let me see If I got this.
Cleaning your chain is the most important thing Cleaning your chain is not necessary Motor oil is bad for chains Except for the people who have used it successfully for years. bike specific chain lubes are the best Bike specific chain lubes are the worst Dry lubes clean your chain Dry lubes don't clean your chain Organic yak lard is the lube of choice in Tibet Did I miss anything? |
Originally Posted by avidone1
(Post 18471999)
So let me see If I got this.
Cleaning your chain is the most important thing Cleaning your chain is not necessary Motor oil is bad for chains Except for the people who have used it successfully for years. bike specific chain lubes are the best Bike specific chain lubes are the worst Dry lubes clean your chain Dry lubes don't clean your chain Organic yak lard is the lube of choice in Tibet Did I miss anything? Except the Tibet part. That might be racist somehow, if I can figure out how you offended Tibet...give me a minute in A&S to build some moral outrage |
'Gun oil' with Teflon, Break-free, or Slick 50 for me. All are loaded with PTFE (Teflon), and the exterior of the chain can be wiped cleanly. They can be purchased for less that bike-specific lubes.
|
I NEVER use any kind of oil on a bicycle chain.
I use parrafin (canning wax) heated in a metal coffee can and drop my chain in it. No greasy chain tattoos, no dirty hands, no dirt or oil stuck on chain. Usually good for up to 6,000 miles. Been doing that since the mid-1970s and for over 300,000 miles. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18470940)
Not zen, bro.
I didn't say that I don't lube my chain. I said I don't clean my chain. There is a very large difference. Yes, I do ride my bicycles in all kinds of conditions...summer rains, off-road in both wet and dry conditions...although I try to avoid riding off-road when it is too wet...and I've ridden from the southwestern US (Tucson) to the northwest corner (Seattle) to the northeast corner (Vermont) to the southeast corner (Georgia) in just about any kind of weather that those areas can throw at me. If you don't put an oily lubricant that only serves as a trap for dirt and grit, it's not necessary to clean the chain constantly...or at all. I use White Lightning and have for almost 20 years in all of the places and conditions listed above. I strip off the factory lubricant because I don't consider it to be "the best chain lubricant around™" and I use White Lightning. It lasts far longer than the 50 or 100 miles that are ridiculously claimed by many and I don't have to clean out the grit that gets carried into the chain when oil based lubricant is used. Dirt and debris sticks to the chain like it does to the bike but, like the grit on the frame, it is easily brushed away. Since the chain is always moving, the grit and dirt gets knocked off even more easily. This is my drivetrain taken in the middle of winter on my winter bike http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/IMG_1155.jpg http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...e/IMG_1152.jpg And this is what my fingers look like when I rub them across my chain http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...pskr2dnquj.jpg My chains last about 3500 miles which is as long as others claim when using oil based lubricants. The difference is that I don't have to be obsessive about cleaning...either the bike or me |
Originally Posted by stdlrf11
(Post 18468927)
These threads always give me a chuckle. Most of these threads end up with so many folks dead set in their 'method' that they discourage others for trying something new.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471061)
None of what these say are wrong nor do they conflict with what JohnDThompson said. Let's take these statements apart, shall we?
You (not just you, cyccommute) may prefer your "cleaning" method and type of lube, but that's just personal preference. You are getting the mileage, and maintenance (or lack thereof) that you want out of your chain, which is great, for you. I'm still experimenting with mine, and after about seven years and ~35k miles, I'm still learning. Over that time, I've tried most commercial bike lubes. I've tried wax based lubes like White Lightning. I've tried dry lubes from Finish Line, Pedros and Spin Doctor. I've tried wet lubes from Finish Line and others. I've tried super lubes like ProLink, Boeshield, Rock and Roll, etc., and they all resulted in the same, dirty, squeaky chain after a week or two. So far, with only about 2k miles between two bikes, I'm happy with my motor oil and OMS mix. It doesn't attract dirt any more than bike specific lubes, in fact, it is a little cleaner than the others if you spend the 15 seconds to wipe the chain after the first ride. It lasts a little longer than most commercial lubes. In the long run, it doesn't require any more or less time and energy to apply and keep clean. It doesn't fling all over the place coating my frame and rims in oil, :lol: and it is extremely cheap and easy to make.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18470940)
My chains last about 3500 miles which is as long as others claim when using oil based lubricants.
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 18471144)
I get 400 to 600 miles between applications...sometimes more. I really don't follow it that closely but I don't apply it before every ride nor even every week nor, sometimes, every month. I can go for as much as 6 weeks between application and I'm usually riding about 100 miles per week.
Originally Posted by zonatandem
(Post 18472236)
I NEVER use any kind of oil on a bicycle chain.
I use parrafin (canning wax) heated in a metal coffee can and drop my chain in it. No greasy chain tattoos, no dirty hands, no dirt or oil stuck on chain. Usually good for up to 6,000 miles. Been doing that since the mid-1970s and for over 300,000 miles.
Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 18472270)
With Mobil 1 I changed out my chain at 8000 miles. Park chain wear tool said I had mileage left.
I've read where guys boasted about 10k miles on a chain, only to find out they were on a single speed. For the record, my bikes are equipped with Shimano 2x10 and 2x11 speed drivetrains. |
Originally Posted by vinnyvincent
(Post 18468293)
....... I suppose I should stop being so cheap.
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
(Post 18468085)
Whatever size those itty bitty little bottles of bicycle chain lube are.... I can afford it and I'll never accidentally spill a quart of oil onto the floor of my shop.
|
Originally Posted by zonatandem
(Post 18472236)
I NEVER use any kind of oil on a bicycle chain.
I use parrafin (canning wax) heated in a metal coffee can and drop my chain in it. No greasy chain tattoos, no dirty hands, no dirt or oil stuck on chain. Usually good for up to 6,000 miles. Been doing that since the mid-1970s and for over 300,000 miles. |
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
(Post 18472471)
Of all the bicycle chain specific oil out there... you give the best justification for any of them.
I've already crossed that bridge since the mix has been made. Now I'm on to saving 50+ dollars over the next five or so years. My main reasoning was that I would have so much of it that I would not hesitate to use it on a regular basis, where I may use expensive oil more sparingly. Again, this is all rooted with me being a cheap ass. A lot of this debate seems to be turning into more wet VS dry lube than home brew vs commercial... Obviously when you compare homebrew to something like white lightning, you are comparing apples to oranges. Let's talk about homebrew VS commercial wet lubes. |
My problem is that I don't know how to test it.
In the normal flow of things, I'd use Home Brew - not for cost savings but because that's just what I do. I like to screw around with bicycles. If I did that, however, I'd want to personally fool around with the ratios and such but it would take such a time to test and, even after I did, I wouldn't know how to judge which was better. If I ever quit my job and have more time on my hands, I think that I might give that hot waxing a try. I'm too lazy to try it yet. |
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