kcjc

Yes high school chemistry, OH- and ionized.

High school biology (at least the intro of VDCC in muscles and neurons). But how do you explain cramps that occur when there is no electrolyte imbalance (occasionally during the night, after a stretch, etc). And why do adding to the magnitude of imbalance of some electrolyte works? Given sweat is hypotonic, which means that it has a relatively lower salt concentration than the plasma, the concentration of electrolyte increase with perspiration (not the other way around as suggested by the advertisements).

Not that up to speed as far as the various competing models but just glad Tums works.

Doc V

The dose of pickle juice I have seen in scientific publications (referenced in this article https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...e-cramps/?_r=0) is 2-2.5oz.

jfowler85

[QUOTE=kcjc;18555135]Yes high school chemistry, OH

gregf83 

Not if you're replacing the sweat with water.

jfowler85

The study of ion channels extends deep into doctorate level education. Beyond electrolyte imbalance s/p dehydration, we could be talking hypothyroid cramps, referred neurological pain that is assumed to be a cramp, nerve compression, inadequate vascular flow, overcompensation s/p age-related atrophy...could be a number of things. However, the context of the discussion relates directly to physical activity with the legs, and a cheap and effective method to determine whether or not electrolyte imbalance is the issue is to...you guessed it, take some po rehydration salts. As aforementioned, that was a quick and effective test for field differential diagnosis in the middle of Iraq while on combat patrols; we would make up diy packets using salt and sugar (not an electrolyte, I know, but useful for other purposes as a quick cure-all in the field) from MREs, as rehydration salt packets back in those days were hard to come by.

rumrunn6

we're not talking about the Jimmy Legs are we?

Made famous by 'Seinfeld,' Jimmy Legs condition gets serious study - tribunedigital-sunsentinel

Dreww10

Unfortunately, bringing this post back to life two years later, as I still haven't resolved this cramping issue and could desperately use further input.

1) I've determined that pickle juice and mustard do not work. In fact, I would almost say that a large swig of pickle juice makes the cramping worse within 5-7 minutes

2) Last summer, through trial and error I found that consuming a lot of water was helping my long-standing muscle recovery problem. Around a gallon a day. However, in the process, I also learned first-hand what hyper-hydration is...it caused major, ride-ending cramps generally within 30 miles. Should note that I was still consuming Gatorade during/after rides during this experiment, but did not increase my electrolyte intake over normal.

3) As noted previously, I expel a lot of salt, even on cold, deep-winter days. I have tried both pre-loading on salty foods, and consuming heavy-salt foods mid-ride to no avail.

4) I also last summer tried GU electrolyte tablets in lieu of Gatorade, and at one point experimented with pre-loading with one bottle and then drinking four bottles over a 2.5-3 hour period with the tablets to load up during the ride - effectively going overboard with intake - also to no avail. The question is, can someone be so low on electrolytes that they need to load up by consuming several glasses of Gatorade/GU/etc. a day throughout the season to maintain the proper amount? I'm not opposed to trying this, but mainly haven't because of the dental health ramifications of consuming a lot of sports drinks.

5) The onset of cramping is noticeably worse in cold temperatures. I've seen mention of theories of tight muscles and tendons causing leg cramping. I do know that I suffer from cold-induced tightness in the legs that stretching will not cure, as most winters I deal with painful knee issues that instantly disappear when the temperature rises. Is there any actual truth to this theory?

6) While not directly related but included for context, as part of my job I spend about 5-6 weekends a year doing a lot of crouching and kneeling over long hours. In a matter of less than one day, I routinely develop cramps and pains in my thighs that can only be described as the feeling of being struck repeatedly in the thighs by a ball-bat. These pains generally take a week to fully subside and make it difficult to even walk right or go up stairs.

7) The only thing I have not experimented with is taking specific vitamins. I have taken magnesium for a period before, but not during the height of cycling season nor likely in a dose that would make a difference in an endurance sport scenario. Any input here?

I'm 34, 170 lbs., ride about 8,000 miles a year, and don't have any known health issues. The unfortunate part of this is that since taking up cycling several years ago, I've been unable to reach goals I'd like attain in regards to mileage/climbing/routes. I'm unable to participate in out-of-town rides and events because I don't know the terrain nor have a pickup when the inevitable happens. Going riding with friends in the mountains is impossible. Taking part in hilly charity rides is likewise impossible. Frustrating, to say the least.

Paul Barnard

I wanted to do my best to ward off cramps before I rode RAGBRAI. My research led me to a supplement called Sport Legs. Nashbar has it. I had never done a multi day high mileage ride before and I did not cramp up. I took occasion to chat with a lot of people during the ride and was surprised by the number of people who used it. A number of triathletes said that it really worked for them.

xodondum

I've read before that a magnesium SPRAY helped some people.

Milton Keynes

Had problems with leg cramps last year until I started carrying Gatorade powder along with me. Normally keep water in one bottle, Gatorade in the other. I did at one time put a pinch of salt and squirt some lime juice into my water bottles, but it just wasn't enough.

Yesterday did my first big ride of the year, 27 miles, which I wasn't really prepared for since I haven't been riding my trainer this winter like I did last winter. Had one bottle of Gatorade but still had a couple of cramps in the middle of the ride, but they subsided and I was able to finish. Likely had I been conditioning I wouldn't have been bothered with cramps at all, but the group I was riding with was going up some big hills I wasn't ready for. But that one spot was the only time I had cramp issues, no problems after the ride or later in the evening, like in the past.

Also good to keep your potassium levels up, eat plenty of bananas before and during the ride.

Troul 

Increase your iron & protein intake. 10 mg of iron x2 a day & 15 grams of protein 2x a day.

Troul 

Increase your iron & protein intake. 10 mg of iron x2 a day & 15 grams of protein 2x a day on top of what you already consume.

Milton Keynes

I wonder if there is an actual correlation or if this was just coincidence? At any rate I'm glad your cramps stopped.

one4smoke

One insane observation, and one not so crazy...

The not so crazy first: I sometimes start cramping at about mile 50 or so. Stretching before helps it from ever starting, most of the time. Also, if I'm doing a lot of hard climbing, as soon as I level off I'll start spinning at a higher than normal cadence for a mile or two. Seems to help.

Now, some rather insane advice. Most times, it can be a mind over matter thing with me. If I'm cruising along and feel a cramp starting, if I start worrying about it or even think about it ...it worsens. BUT... if I get my mind off it and onto something else without dwelling on it, it goes away. I've experimented with this. After it did go away I'd give it several miles and purposely start dwelling on it again just to see what would happen. Sure enough ...it'd come back if I did. So, I decided to really concentrate on thinking about other things so it wouldn't return. It didn't. Seriously. I chit you not.

Dreww10

I've wondered if stretching religiously (going back to my mention of tight muscles/tendons) might be of benefit, but I guess the question becomes, how far do you go with that? Quads and hamstrings are one thing, but is this getting into hip flexors, lower back, etc.?

My situation is fairly similar. Depending on terrain and effort, my quads will begin to fatigue around 45-55 miles and if I straighten the leg out, I can feel it trying to lock up/cramp. I can generally continue for another hour or so after that, but there's no coming back from it and eventually it reaches the call-in-a-ride stage if I don't begin to wrap it up and head home.

Dreww10

Thanks for the response. Not to discredit it by any means, but it's the first I've heard of protein for muscle cramping while on the bike. I know there's plenty of benefit to recovery, though. Can you expand on that?

Dreww10

One thing I did leave out earlier:

For years I have struggled mightily with muscle recovery. A long ride or an all-out but short training ride would leave my legs fatigued for days. I drank Gatorade from time to time, but never immediately following a ride as a recovery aid. Last summer, I figured it out and one tall glass right as I got off the bike made all the difference in the world. That said, consuming it before/during seems to have no effect on fatigue or cramping while on the bike. That being said, I have not tried the scorched-earth approach of just drinking 4-5 bottles of Gatorade a day every day to find the result.

bogydave

My BIL has cramping problems
Doc said lots of vitamin D.
Didn’t work for him.
Has tried tons of water, Gatorade, massages....

A trainer at the gym said dextrose,
(Plant sugar) added to his water.
2 months , no cramps
He sent some here so we could ride the Tour de Palm Springs,
Did 26 miles with no cramps.
I think he mixes in 4 table spoons per water bottle, drank 2 & most of the 3rd bottle for the 26 miles ride

So , more than one solution out there
Everyone is different
Keep searching to find what works for you
Talk to you doc

Milton Keynes

I don't think you have to drink that much, in fact I don't think that much would be good for you. It's just that I knew I had to stay hydrated, but didn't realize how much electrolytes I was losing. It's different when you're doing something outside and you get all hot & sweaty, you realize how much you're sweating. However, on the bike wearing sweat-wicking clothes, I don't always realize how much I sweat until I touch my forehead and feel the salt caked on my head. So the Gatorade became one of my riding tools, and since I've been using it my leg cramps haven't been nearly as bad. Of course I also got my legs into better shape so that helped them not cramp up as badly. Also taking magnesium supplements during the riding season and taking tums during cramps are a couple of other cramp mitigation techniques I've picked up. I haven't carried pickle juice, though.

The worst cramps I had on my bike was before I started replacing electrolytes. One ride in particular in which cramps ended the ride prematurely, it felt like my leg was going to bend backwards at the knee.

TimothyH

OP needs to go to the doctor.

There was a guy here recently who had cramps and was convinced to go to the doctor by another member. The doctor found a serious problem.

Apart from that, one OTC remedy which worked for me for occasional cramps was Hotshot.

HOTSHOT | Scientifically Proven Muscle Cramps Treatment


-Tim-

ksryder

I had a similar problem a couple years ago and, somewhat by accident, I found out that yoga pretty much solved it.

Mounttesa

FWIW, I've found that if cramps are starting, physically pulling against the direction of muscle contraction relieves it quickly, instead of writhing in intense pain waiting for it to subside once it hits full force.

For me, if I let the cramp happen full force, the ride is over as it comes back very easily with minimal exertion afterwards.

John_V 

I used to get severe cramps, especially at night. They got to the point where I had to stop my ride for about half hour each time I cramped. The night cramps woke me up screaming to the point of almost crying. I was 64 at the time. I started taking potassium supplements, 1 every day, and a banana at breakfast and haven’t had a cramp since then. I ride between 40-60 miles a day, over 11,400 miles last year, so not riding much isn’t a reason why I no longer cramp. I’m also 71 yo.

Scimber

I have struggled with cramps with years. After the age of 35 my cramps would onset sooner and sooner into the ride. This despite being in good enough shape to ride 120 miles in a go and back to back days climbing Mount Evans and Pikes Peak. It was very frustrating as I was trying out all kinds of electrolyte drinks Hammer/Skratch/NUUN and so on. Pills, pre-ride mixes, in the bottle mixes etc. I focuses on proper nutrition during rides consuming about 120 calories an hour with an appropriate mix of carb/fat/proteins. I tried pickle juice. I stretched. I experimented with Sport Legs. I then tried the recently mentioned Hot Shot thinking that was going to be the solve - it might have made a small difference but I still cramp now even with in 15 miles if I am working hard. This has happened on 40 degree days while not working hard. So frustrating. I have had blood tests after blood tests - all normal.

Recently my 74 year old father started having night time leg cramps which were threatening his sanity. He finally was put on gabapentin which seems to keep his bad cramps at bay. His other symptoms are muscle twitching, and "restless legs". This has all lead to me fining and one of his many doctors confirming a high likelihood that he has Cramping Fasciculation Syndrome. Which is not well understood and is largely untreatable with the scientific community not understanding the root cause at all.

I have had "restless legs" and random muscle twitches for years but not the middle of the night cramping he has which means I probably have the less serious Benign Fasciculation Syndrome with cramps largely only being triggered by exercise.

This is all to just say - science doesn't understand cramps very well. There are multiple possible causes and you have to experiment with finding what works to solve your cramps and be OK with the thought that you might not find a cure at all. Research the science, ignore assertions and develop a spreadsheet to track your results as you try different remedies. Who knows, maybe pickle juice will for for you. Just stop drinking Gatorade for the love of god.

canklecat

It's worth experimenting with a little added sugar -- sucrose, glucose, dextrose (just another form of glucose derived from starch), doesn't really seem to matter to the human body -- along with electrolyte drinks. There's a theory that a potassium and sugar aid intracellular absorption; sodium, extracellular.

The body is already shifting fluid between blood and muscles during and after exercise, which may be linked to muscle cramps. Immediately after exercise that induces dehydration, fluid engorged muscles are shifting fluid to depleted plasma.

NIH studies differ in conclusions based on results observed in humans and animals. Many studies I've glanced at (just reading the abstracts) are for scenarios not directly relevant to bicycling and similar physical activities -- dehydration caused by illness, etc.

If you're not already using a creatine supplement, give it a try. Another NIH study suggests creatine and plenty of water may aid the plasma/muscle balance and avoid dehydration and muscle cramps.

I've begun adding a single teaspoon of Six Star powdered creatine to my water bottle with electrolytes. It's a very recent experiment, begun Friday with three rides of 45, 30 and 30 miles since (taking Sunday off). So far, so good, fewer quad cramps during rides when I stand to climb or stretch, and less severe foot cramping at night -- just a few twinges in the arch, not enough to make me leap out of bed and stretch the foot as I normally needed to the past few months.

But I'm reluctant to pronounce any miracle cures because I'm just getting over a two-month bout with flu and lingering flu-like symptoms, so any day I feel like a bike ride is a pretty darned good day compared with the rest of January and February.

BTW, I'm a little skeptical of the pickle juice because it's just brine. I suppose you could try shaking up some vinegar in whatever flavor you like with some salt and sugar and get the same effect. In fact, that's the basis for some ancient homebrewed remedies for thirst, including switchel, haymaker's punch and some much older recipes. So I doubt it needs to be specifically pickle juice. There are also thirst quenching remedies that include lightly fermented teas and other drinks. The theory is the honey or sugar aided absorption of the liquid in the stomach and gut.

In the article cited earlier in this thread:
That would seem to correspond with the historical anecdotes for vinegar and mildly fermented drinks as remedies for thirst in extreme conditions, including the anecdote about Jesus being offered a sponge soaked in what was likely posca, but usually translated as vinegar or some other unpalatable sounding beverage that was traditionally used as a thirst quencher.