I've never seen anything quiet like this!

Last November, my Marin Nail Trail had a major failure at the BB weld. I noticed the cranks felt sloppy and figured I need a new BB. Nope, much worse.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c8...O=w370-h656-no

I've never seen anything quiet like this!

Last November, my Marin Nail Trail had a major failure at the BB weld. I noticed the cranks felt sloppy and figured I need a new BB. Nope, much worse.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c8...O=w370-h656-no

edit/afterthought: I'm happy you didn't get hurt badly. I witnessed somebody have a catastrophic failure on a CF bike last year, he was going to feel that wreck for many, many days.

Currently looking for a new bike. Have a charity ride in 2 weeks and I can't let down the people who've donated to me.

Oh wow, that's a mountain bike though right? Possibly landing too hard on jumps? Hope you got it sorted out.

It is a MTB, but I'm not a mountain biker. This was mainly a winter commuter and simple single-track bike. The long story is that this 2009 Nail Trail frame was a warranty replacement from the original 2006 Bobcat frame that had a crack in the headtube. Marin was not willing to replace the replacement frame. I am disappointed, but took all the best parts and put them on my daughters winter commuter (she's car-free so it felt good to help her have a better winter bike).

Wow that is terrible! For such a new bike too. Really unacceptable, what kind of junk are they selling nowadays???

Glad you didnt get seriously hurt.

Awesome!

Was that an aluminum bike? Glad you're not too badly hurt.

Thinking about this some. I think all of the damage in the photos can be accounted for by a single hard frontal impact to the fork/front wheel.

The pop & swerve was a red herring.

The strength of a bicycle's double triangle design is also its weakness. It is essentially impossible to get damage to a single member without damaging other members.

So...
Frontal Impact ==> Buckling of the top tube
Buckling of the top tube ==> separation of the top tube from the seat tube.
Separation of the top tube from the seat tube ==> (partial?) separation of the bottom bracket from the down tube.
Buckling of the top tube ==> separation of the head tube from the down tube.

I would predict seeing a bend at the bottom of the head tube/top tube junction.
Also a bend at the top of the top tube/seat tube junction.
As well as a bend at the top of the seat tube/bottom bracket junction.

At this point, it would be hard to say whether this is purely crash damage (warranty not applicable), or defect (tubes and welds weaker than they should be, and thus warranty at least partly applicable).

====================

The condition of the bike may be good enough that one could simply replace the frame, wires, and cables. A rather cheap prospect. Although, it sounded like the OP got a full refund. So, no spare parts. Did he keep the wheels?

There should be a multitude of good new and used bikes that the OP should be able to get, especially if he got a full credit for the (probably discounted) Jamis.

It is possible that the parts of the mangled Jamis would still have been worth close to the value of the NOS bike when it was purchased.

I've got spare used frames sitting around that cost me about $100, that could just use a complete groupset.

====================

How heavy was the OP?

If the OP is under, say 220 lbs (100 kilos), then it should be fine just getting the same thing he had. Just be careful running into curbs, walls, parked cars, potholes & pavement cracks, sewer grates, etc.

On the other hand, if the OP is over 300 lbs (130 kilos), then consider something a bit sturdier. Steel?

Ahh..that's not how it works. Companies can outsource manufacturing to an Asian (anywhere) supplier, but the company doing the outsourcing is still responsible for quality & the supplier meeting the product specification. You can outsource work, but you can't outsource responsibility.

Mattel toys had a lawsuit years ago as paint on their plastic toys contained excessively high levels of lead oxide. Mattel said..not our problem..the Asian supplier didn't use the paint we specified..well..that didn't impress the those that filed the lawsuit. Mattel was held responsible for not making sure their supplier met Mattel's specification.

More recently..see Lumber Liquidators outsourcing wood laminate flooring manufacture to China. The Chinese used a much cheaper (formaldehyde generating) adhesive & allowed LL to have a cost advantage over other flooring manufacturers that did use the correct adhesive. LL said..we didn't know..the supplier is at fault. Nope..doesn't work that way. LL is responsible for the materials and methods the Chinese supplier uses. LL either did have a quality assurance plan to monitor their supplier & they were totally incompetent, or they neglected to check what their supplier was doing. I believe the latter & I doubt it was an oversight.

"Jamis owners beware" couldn't be more accurate if the event happened as the OP indicates it did.

I dunno. I partially disagree. I think a Head tube/down tube junction failure could cause all of this. (When hitting the curb, or because of hitting the curb, either one.)

I think, with a failure of that weld, you'd have no bracing for the bottom of the head tube, which would allow the fork to be shoved back by the curb impact, severely bending the top tube to such an acute angle that would cause the top tube/seat tube weld to also fail. The BB weld failure could be the result of the down tube being pushed up by the folding in of the head tube.

I think the biggest clue to this is that the top tube is broken UP, which I think is what would happen when the head tube was pushed in at the BOTTOM by the fork, once there was no bracing from the down tube. Also, the TT to HT junction looks clean, which tells me it was the Head tube that pivoted, with the leverage transferred to the thinnest part of the TT.

Of course, NONE of these welds should have failed, because even the bending of the top tube shouldn't have made the seat tube juncture fail.

If we had a better picture that encompasses the whole bike from the same angle, we'd get a better idea.

Ah, butthe OP says he swerved into the curb after the pop. Therefore it's very unlikely that he hit the curb strainght on. Looking at this I'm strongly reminded of images i've seen of bicycles getting crushed because the owner had them on a roof rack and drove into a garage with the bikes still on the rack. What do you guys think?Possible an on-the-rack impact not a riding along impact?

Cheers

I was wondering... but I don't think that would account for the top tube bend which is likely caused by low leverage at the fork rather than high leverage at the handlebars. Maybe hitting the saddle end first?

I think of running into a curb as a glancing blow, or perhaps a short 6" curb that the bike should be able to at least partly go over. But the OP reports speed in KPH, so his scenario might be a little different than I might expect otherwise expect.

With bikes being built to a strength standard, does the material matter?

OP was offered a full refund.

so, apparently someone thought it was a defective frame.

the conspiracy types can stand down...

Maybe not that much. I have gone down a couple of times by hitting things like pavement cracks without a frame crumbling under myself.

However, an MTB or Cross bike is designed to take a lot of abuse, and can be made with any material from steel to CF. Many of the welded frames have a few extra strips of metal reinforcement. As long as one doesn't exceed the design specs, CF can be very resilient.

Road bikes may be a little more sensitive to abuse, but also rider strength and weight.

Some racks have the bike mounted upside down with the handlebars and saddle secured to the rack.

Cheers

Some racks have the bike mounted upside down with the handlebars and saddle secured to the rack.

Cheers

Cheers

What kind of curbs do you have on your trails?

The chart is a few years old, but it is still relevant. One of the often repeated claims is that "most bikes are made in Giant's Taiwan factory." Well, not even Giant makes most of their bikes on that factory.

Factory & Suppliers Guide 2011 | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Conspiracy Theory?

Somebody will log into this website and see the photo of a crumpled Jamis Ventura, and have to make a decision to buy or not to buy a Jamis. Or perhaps a framebuilder will choose to look at damaged frames inorder to improve his or her own designs.

The question should be what could account for the damage to the frame, and why there were 3 simultaneous joint failures plus a top tube bend.

The downtube is under tension. So, for example, say the downtube separated from the headtube just riding along. Then one would expect the front wheel to move forward and the toptube to bend downward (the opposite of what happened here).

If the downtube and seattube joints simultaneously failed, then one would not expect the toptube to fold.

Removing a tube and then riding could cause unpredictable results, but the tube wouldn't be completely missing either, so it might be resilient under moderate compressive forces.

Pretty much the only way to account for the 3 tube joint damage plus upward bend to the toptube is a strong frontal impact. And the OP admitted hitting a curb. The account seemed to minimalize that impact, but that is the only aspect of his story that could account for all the frame damage.

What I can't say is what caused the pop, or what apparently caused the OP to swerve.

Pop & Swerve.

What is the condition of the tires? Not just the rims, but tires & tubes?

Right. I never said otherwise. I was just pointing out that if there was a problem with materials or production, it might not be limited to Jamis frames since they're built in the same factory, by the same workers, presumably with the same materials as frames built for other brands. Therefore, it would be irrational to be wary only of Jamis-branded bikes.

Yes, but by the retail store. I think these are sold at a chain sports store in Canada, so the bike could very well end up in a dumpster instead of going to the manufacturer. In which case the conspiracy would be that this failure does not result in any analysis that has the potential to result in a recall for the frame batch.

You can probably borrow a bike for the charity ride. I know some folks locally who are still riding long term indefinite loaner bikes, and are actively involved in many group rides.

Glad you weren't injured by that frame failure. Looks like one weld snapped then the others failed after the first went. Nice of the dealer to offer a refund. Maybe you can work out a replacement from them right away. I've never heard of another Jamis failure like that, and I know several folks locally who ride 'em.

FWIW, there have been a handful of reports of catastrophic frame/joint failures of Tern folders, but most Tern owners seem happy and haven't experienced any problems. Ideally the vendors/designers will track down the QC problems and sort it out with the frame manufacturers.

yes, aluminum with carbon fork and seat stays.