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Why all of a sudden the hatred of triples

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Why all of a sudden the hatred of triples

Old 07-14-16, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
A small field of vision leads to surprises, being fixated on that wheel doesn't allow you to anticipate trouble up the road.
I think we are somewhat in agreement here just using words differently. When you said that you "seldom watch the wheel in front on me in a pace line", I took that literally. When I say that I focus on the wheel ahead of me, I do not mean to say that I ignore what's ahead, holes, gravel, cars, walkers/joggers, etc but that I keep one eye on the cyclist directly ahead of me so I'm prepared and avoid collision. Not only for my safety, but those behind me.

Naturally no one rides at 20+ mph without looking ahead every other second, but they are also well aware of their proximity to the rear wheel ahead of them.

I hope that makes it clearer and easier to agree too.
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Old 07-14-16, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
This is a gross overstatement. Novice riders and people who are not in good shape will not make it up ANY of the mountain bike trails around here with a 1x setup. Period. All of the people who know better steer weaker riders away from 1x setups. Not everyone who enjoys mountain biking is in great shape. I regularly ride with a guy who is over 250lbs and is shorter than me. He STRUGGLES up the hills, but loves riding regardless. He rides a triple. Nearly 2/3rds of the people in the group of 20 I went out with yesterday had a triple, and although most of them were 20 somethings who were in relatively good shape, the still needed it.

Our trails are tough and steep. They require very low gears for the up and very high gears for the down. That's something that a 1x can't provide unless you're strong enough to push a higher gear on the uphill. That's probably only 5% of the people I know who mountain bike.


You're making quite a few assumptions, my friend. Nowhere did I suggest a 1x and neither did I specify the needed chainrings. I would posit that it's the large ring that is unnecessary. So, a 2x with, say 22/34 might be good enough for almost all MTB needs.
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Old 07-14-16, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
we get it. You like your triple. How many threads are you going to start on this topic?
+1.
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Old 07-14-16, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyNeck View Post
I think the hatred mainly comes from the folks who either ride in relatively flat areas and from the hard-core, really in shape riders. Neither can seem to grasp the need by others for something they don't need. If they don't need it, why should anyone else? Cycling is no different than clothing with respect to fashion and trends. Right now it isn't fashionable to be riding triples. I take flak for mine. If I think someone is just kidding around and having some fun with me about it, I take no offense and joke around back. However, the snobs, that's different. I take no **** from them about anything.
I would give those folks grief right back about their wussy little large chainring. It's a shame that they haven't got the muscles/guts/gonads to turn a 53T ring like real men can. Sure my bike with the triple has a 28T granny ring, but I only use it on grades that those folks can't ride.

In all seriousness, I think that Shimano is largely responsible for dissing the Triple, and the reason is, the complexity it causes them for designing and marketing the front x3 Brifter, and keeping it properly adjusted and in trim. In any case, I used downtube friction shifters on my bike with a triple, and they work like a champ. I'm even considering going to the Lance configuration of a front downtube friction shifter, and a rear brifter on the next bike I build with a triple.
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Old 07-14-16, 03:49 PM
  #55  
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To all the people who are saying a triple is a sign of weakness: Why the hell don't you just ride a fixie then? If you are such a stud, then certainly you don't need gears.
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Old 07-14-16, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
You're making quite a few assumptions, my friend. Nowhere did I suggest a 1x and neither did I specify the needed chainrings. I would posit that it's the large ring that is unnecessary. So, a 2x with, say 22/34 might be good enough for almost all MTB needs.
This I somewhat agree with. I'd rather miss the middle chainring because I almost never use it. I'm either climbing and therefore in the small ring, or going downhill and I'm in the big ring.

I was speaking of commercially available 1x setups that come on standard bikes because, let's face it, the majority of bikers don't modify their bikes. All of THOSE 1x setups are geared too high for all but the strong riders.

As for the front derailleur being harder to use and slower to respond, that's true, but on our trails when you're going uphill, you're GOING uphill. We don't do rolling hills around here. You shift into your small ring at the bottom and switch into your big ring at the top, with no touching of the FD in between.
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Old 07-15-16, 06:00 AM
  #57  
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6 pages on your other recent related thread. http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...go-11-2-a.html Why don't you ask a mod to consolidate them?

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Old 07-15-16, 06:42 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Lately it seems that all of a sudden there is a hatred of triples.
I'm not sure that you're being fair here. There's little hate toward triples. If anything, there is significantly more disdain for recumbents... ;^]
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Old 07-15-16, 07:16 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
I'm not sure that you're being fair here. There's little hate toward triples. If anything, there is significantly more disdain for recumbents... ;^]
Major hatred for bents, cause bents NEED triples, due to the friggin weight. You can barely get over a highway overpass without going granny.
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Old 07-15-16, 07:46 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Major hatred for bents, cause bents NEED triples, due to the friggin weight. You can barely get over a highway overpass without going granny.

Wimp. I remember the last century I was on, I was behind Roadboy Junior and some hot blonde he was trying to impress all the way up a hill. That "friggin weight" didn't seem to cause me any problems, but when I went screaming by him on the downside, all I heard was, "HEY, HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT!"

Yeah. It sucks being passed by a 50-year-old riding a 'bent.
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Old 07-15-16, 07:48 AM
  #61  
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We can only speak for ourselves, and I for one have no hate for triples. I own a few bikes that have them (albeit, cheaper bikes) and taught me how much fun riding a bike can be. Those bikes are my road, mtb and a hybrid.

If a triple works for you great! If not, consider a compact, single gear ring, or even single speed..... there are options, find the one that works for you.

For me, my wants and needs change, hence the bike collection in the garage, lol
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Old 07-15-16, 08:42 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by NYMXer View Post
I'm not so young at 58, and ride pretty serious single tracks and find that I seldom use my front derailleur when mtb riding, unless I am riding rail trails, gravel roads, etc but then again, that is not what my bike was designed for. As for the suspension systems, my Maestro suspension of far better than anything I will ever need it to handle. My personal preference would be to forgo the front derailleur for a dropper seat lever. The manufacturers keep making all these different gearing options because they sell and they sell because we all want something different. Options are good.
Don't assume that I ride gravel roads or rail trails. I may ride those from time to time but I also ride technical single track. Every single time I point my bike down a hill, I shift my front derailer to the large ring. Part of that comes from a habit developed in the old days of weaker rear derailer springs which would allow the chain to slap on the chain stay. Today's derailers have stronger springs and thus tighter chains but chains can still slap and get caught between the chain stay and crank.

The other reason that I shift up to the large ring is because I don't want to coast all the time. The current idea of 1x and low 2x systems almost encourage coasting than pedaling down hills.

Originally Posted by NYMXer View Post
My rides are usually around the 14-16, or two hours..... same time devoted to a road bike ride. Once in a while, they get a bit longer, and that is most likely due to a group ride or a momentary lack of reasoning, lol
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Even a 16 mile ride is rather short in my opinion. I've heard many conversations about going for a "long" mountain bike ride of about 12 miles. I range further than that on my way home when I ride over the mountain behind my work.

Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Mtb rides of 14-16 miles are about the same as riding 50 road miles.
No they are not. Not even close.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:04 AM
  #63  
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They are very close. I know this because I do both. A 50 mile road ride is easier than a 14-16 mile mtb ride. More muscles and brainpower are used to make micro second decisions when riding single track trails mountain biking.

Obviously you don't mountain bike.

A group of us mtb folks took some roadies out mountain biking this past Saturday...they couldn't keep up with us regulars.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:05 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
This is a gross overstatement. Novice riders and people who are not in good shape will not make it up ANY of the mountain bike trails around here with a 1x setup. Period. All of the people who know better steer weaker riders away from 1x setups. Not everyone who enjoys mountain biking is in great shape. I regularly ride with a guy who is over 250lbs and is shorter than me. He STRUGGLES up the hills, but loves riding regardless. He rides a triple. Nearly 2/3rds of the people in the group of 20 I went out with yesterday had a triple, and although most of them were 20 somethings who were in relatively good shape, the still needed it.

Our trails are tough and steep. They require very low gears for the up and very high gears for the down. That's something that a 1x can't provide unless you're strong enough to push a higher gear on the uphill. That's probably only 5% of the people I know who mountain bike.
Not that I want to defend 1x systems but I think you have this the wrong way around. A properly setup 1x system could be made to have a sufficiently low gear for a newbie to actually negotiate a more difficult climb or trail. It could use a small chainring which would make the system good only for climbing. It would also allow a newbie to concentrate on pedaling without having to worry about the technique that is needed for shifting off-road.

Triples are better for those of us who don't want to spend all of our time coasting. 1x systems are great for climbing or great for downhill but they can't do both. If you try to design a 1x system to cover all the range, you simple can't. Even the Sram Eagle 10-50 does have the same range as 44/34/22 with an 11-34 cassette. You can set it up with a good low gear or a good high gear but not both. I come from the old days of mountain biking when the smallest cog we could get on a freewheel was a 14 tooth. When I paired that with a 44 tooth front, I was left with a frustratingly low high gear that spun out at around 20 mph. No, I didn't necessarily need it for trail riding but mountain biking isn't just about riding trails. There are times when you want to (or have to) ride a road to link trails.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:07 AM
  #65  
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BTW it also occurs to me that with a triple, at slower speeds, if you stay in the granny gear, you can use the 11 and 12 sprockets on the cluster, and even out the wear. There have been threads on why or who uses the 11 and 12 speed gears.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:08 AM
  #66  
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cycommute, I wasn't assuming anything about your riding preferences. Look at my post that you quoted, I said "unless I am", as in me. That's why I said my bike wasn't designed for that.

When mtb riding, mileage is really a moot point because the terrain varies so greatly. According to my Strava, a 2 hour ride might have over 3,000ft of climbing in it. So from my experience and based on my riding, a 14 mile mtb ride is close to a 42 mile road ride. Again, miles are a poor indication of effort exerted. I think I could do an easy ride on the mtb or road for 4 hours and exert less energy than a hilly 2 hour ride and cover more than twice as many miles.

I like a lot of what you say and think you bring some good information to the forums but, unless I am misinterpreting your last post, you sometimes seem to want to stir up an argument. I don't, but appreciate the exchange of different opinions, knowledge and life tales. That is the reason I enjoy forums like this one.

We can differ in opinion, but no need to defend any differences. Thanks for the other posts, I enjoyed them
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Old 07-15-16, 09:13 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW it also occurs to me that with a triple, at slower speeds, if you stay in the granny gear, you can use the 11 and 12 sprockets on the cluster, and even out the wear. There have been threads on why or who uses the 11 and 12 speed gears.
If on a long chainstay bike - maybe. General school of thought is cross-chaining, I.E. small ring/smallest cassette, big ring/big cassette, wears the drive train prematurely.

I'm also not sure my rear derailer on my triple equipped mt. bikes will allow a small/small.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:15 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
A group of us mtb folks took some roadies out mountain biking this past Saturday...they couldn't keep up with us regulars.
I took a roadie friend who is my equal on a road bike and he failed miserably on the mtb and I took him on easier trails. Mtb riding requires so many more skills and muscle power than some people realize, inc me. What I thought was "easy peasie" turned out to be very challenging for him. No jumps, hard climbs or difficult obstacles encountered, yet he fell twice, but at slow speed and he was unhurt both times. A rock on the trail caused him to fall once because he became off balance while avoiding it. The other time was just a simple dirt turn, but there was some dry dirt on top. He slid out and fell.

In our club, many members do both, road and Mtb riding and the mtb people tend to ride stronger and faster but there are a few real fast road only guys that are amazingly strong.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:23 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Not that I want to defend 1x systems but I think you have this the wrong way around. A properly setup 1x system could be made to have a sufficiently low gear for a newbie to actually negotiate a more difficult climb or trail. It could use a small chainring which would make the system good only for climbing. It would also allow a newbie to concentrate on pedaling without having to worry about the technique that is needed for shifting off-road.

Triples are better for those of us who don't want to spend all of our time coasting. 1x systems are great for climbing or great for downhill but they can't do both. If you try to design a 1x system to cover all the range, you simple can't. Even the Sram Eagle 10-50 does have the same range as 44/34/22 with an 11-34 cassette. You can set it up with a good low gear or a good high gear but not both. I come from the old days of mountain biking when the smallest cog we could get on a freewheel was a 14 tooth. When I paired that with a 44 tooth front, I was left with a frustratingly low high gear that spun out at around 20 mph. No, I didn't necessarily need it for trail riding but mountain biking isn't just about riding trails. There are times when you want to (or have to) ride a road to link trails.
Oh absolutely! You can definitely set up a 1x system to be a great climber, but then it sucks on the downhill. So yes, you can make a newbie able to ride up steep trails with a 1x, but then on the downhill the gears are useless. Have you ever ridden down a difficult trail without a chain or with no gears high enough to continue pedaling? It's creepy, definitely not something a newbie could navigate unless they're virtually crawling down the mountain. You'd be surprised how much you use your pedals to get yourself over rough spots. Also, if you use clipless. Have you ever tried clipping in without a chain? Have you ever tried clipping in over rocks with no chain? The difficulty increases exponentially when you have no pedal pressure to work against.

(I broke my chain at the top of a 10 mile descent. I know these things from experience. We tried to set it up as a single speed, but it would only work in small small, which is useless for downhill.)

My point is that properly used 1x setups are for strong riders only because they don't have low gears. If you want the 1x to be useful on the downhill you have to be able to push bigger gears on the uphill, which is impossible around here for all but the strongest riders I know. So for someone to say that 1x setups are good for the majority of riders is well, in my opinion, wrong.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:29 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by NYMXer View Post
. Again, miles are a poor indication of effort exerted.
This is the part cycommutes misses.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:33 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
They are very close. I know this because I do both. A 50 mile road ride is easier than a 14-16 mile mtb ride. More muscles and brainpower are used to make micro second decisions when riding single track trails mountain biking.

Obviously you don't mountain bike.
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. I've been mountain biking since 1984 and I still mountain bike today. Bikes today are lighter, easier to climb on, easier to control and more comfortable but people ride them for shorter distances.

I've ridden from less than 5 miles to 100 miles on a mountain bike...before suspension. I've ridden from Durango to Purgatory ski area and back...a distance of almost 70 miles with about 30 miles of off-road climbing mostly on single track. I've done the 30 miles of Monarch Crest Trail from Monarch Pass to Poncha Springs. I've done 50 mile mountain bike rides from Jefferson Colorado to Breckenridge and back as well as an almost 100km ride from the east portal of the west portal of the Moffat Tunnel over Rollins Pass .

Yes, I do mountain bike. And no, a 16 mile mountain bike ride isn't even close to a 50 mile road ride.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:35 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by NYMXer View Post
I took a roadie friend who is my equal on a road bike and he failed miserably on the mtb and I took him on easier trails. Mtb riding requires so many more skills and muscle power than some people realize, inc me. What I thought was "easy peasie" turned out to be very challenging for him. No jumps, hard climbs or difficult obstacles encountered, yet he fell twice, but at slow speed and he was unhurt both times. A rock on the trail caused him to fall once because he became off balance while avoiding it. The other time was just a simple dirt turn, but there was some dry dirt on top. He slid out and fell.
Exactly my experience. It's more than just sitting on seat and spinning your legs for miles on end. Like I mentioned earlier...mtbikings gives you more of an upper body workout than road riding ever will.

The guys we took out this past weekend had trouble climbing on single track with switchbacks.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
Oh absolutely! You can definitely set up a 1x system to be a great climber, but then it sucks on the downhill. So yes, you can make a newbie able to ride up steep trails with a 1x, but then on the downhill the gears are useless. Have you ever ridden down a difficult trail without a chain or with no gears high enough to continue pedaling? It's creepy, definitely not something a newbie could navigate unless they're virtually crawling down the mountain. You'd be surprised how much you use your pedals to get yourself over rough spots. Also, if you use clipless. Have you ever tried clipping in without a chain? Have you ever tried clipping in over rocks with no chain? The difficulty increases exponentially when you have no pedal pressure to work against.
I fully agree. But, most inexperienced riders are going to coast down most hills any way. But, like I said, I hate to defend 1x systems but they could be useful for an inexperienced rider due to their simplicity.

Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
(I broke my chain at the top of a 10 mile descent. I know these things from experience. We tried to set it up as a single speed, but it would only work in small small, which is useless for downhill.)

My point is that properly used 1x setups are for strong riders only because they don't have low gears. If you want the 1x to be useful on the downhill you have to be able to push bigger gears on the uphill, which is impossible around here for all but the strongest riders I know. So for someone to say that 1x setups are good for the majority of riders is well, in my opinion, wrong.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying that 1x systems are good for the "majority" of riders. Far from it. I think they would be useful for the minority of riders like those starting out. Shifting off-road does take some finesse but just riding off-road takes a lot of handling finesse. Being able to concentrate on the handling part would be helpful for most new riders.

But, like you pointed out, there are problems with the downhill part.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:45 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by NYMXer View Post
Again, miles are a poor indication of effort exerted.
Exactly my point. It's silly to say that X number of miles off-road equal Y times some constant road miles. I can show you all kinds of road rides that are extremely difficult and lots of mountain bike rides that are quite easy or vice versa.
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Old 07-15-16, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. I've been mountain biking since 1984 and I still mountain bike today. Bikes today are lighter, easier to climb on, easier to control and more comfortable but people ride them for shorter distances.

I've ridden from less than 5 miles to 100 miles on a mountain bike...before suspension. I've ridden from Durango to Purgatory ski area and back...a distance of almost 70 miles with about 30 miles of off-road climbing mostly on single track. I've done the 30 miles of Monarch Crest Trail from Monarch Pass to Poncha Springs. I've done 50 mile mountain bike rides from Jefferson Colorado to Breckenridge and back as well as an almost 100km ride from the east portal of the west portal of the Moffat Tunnel over Rollins Pass .

Yes, I do mountain bike. And no, a 16 mile mountain bike ride isn't even close to a 50 mile road ride.
Now that we've established that you indeed do mtb it's odd that you don't realize it's all about time and effort, not distance. I've done 70 mile road rides and felt fresher than some 15-20 mile mtb rides.
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