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Danger From Carbon Fiber Bikes

Old 07-24-16, 03:21 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
I was too busy losing control and crashing
No problem. I'm sure if you crashed you could examine the asploded bike and find the seam in the fork that you believe caused the crash. You're no CSI.

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Old 07-24-16, 03:42 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
I would have answered you sooner but I went out and did another 38 miles and 3000 feet of climbing while you've been inventing scenarios. In 95 degree heat and 40% humidity.

I was too busy losing control and crashing in those 20 mph turns that I do 40 around.
I'm so proud of you, as everyone else here is too I'm sure.
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Old 07-24-16, 03:44 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Sorry you are not an auto racing fan or you would know how worng you are.

F1 builds several new chassis and new versions of each chassis each season. But in sports car racing, which is much more widespread and wehere a lot more CF tubs are raced, cars are often used for several years.

Back when IndyCar was using the Dallara IR3, IR5, and IR7, (produced first in 2003, 2006=5, and 2007 and used until 2012) some cars were rebuilt and repaired and used for almost a decade: look up Simona Sylvestro's "Pork Chop" for instance.

I just watched both the IMSA Lime Rock race and the WEC Nurburgring race, in which there were several cars which have been in use for several years.

Indeed, CF tubs Can be damaged beyond repair or to the point where repair is less economical that replacement. They can also remain sound and race-worthy for several years. Check out the Mazda prototypes which run in IMSA, which are many years' old Lola chassis, no longer in production but still being raced. if you had followed ALMS for a while before its demise, you would have seen the same cars coming back year after year after having been sold between teams.

In any case ... we were talking bicycles. as far as all that goes, i'd say jimb100's latest post says enough for me to not have to respond here ... at least to the bike question.

If you want to discuss sports cars, i am always willing. it is a subject about which I know a little, which means i can still learn a lot, and talking with others is a good way to learn, or at least to learn what to learn.
Gee, I'm sorry all those websites I gave were all wrong, next time I'll just create it instead since it would be believed the same way.
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Old 07-24-16, 03:59 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by DaveWC View Post
I don't have to describe it, you did it yourself in your original post. You lost control, believe you see a crack in your carbon fork & blame your crash on the fork. That's your description in your post.



Again, that's the way you (or your friend) described it. Don't criticize me for taking you at your word... "He contributes the crash to hitting a large bump in the road on the downhill."



Yes, you're talking about a 10+ year old bike that hit a "large bump" at 35mph that you believe caused you to crash due to what you think is a crack in the fork that you never saw prior to the crash.



Given that you didn't notice anything wrong with your fork before the crash, how can you state that the damage to the fork wasn't caused by the crash? From what I've read, carbon forks implode on contact. Now suddenly you have a fork with a previously undetectable seam along the outside vertical blade, but you only saw this after running your bike into a rock wall at 35mph and you have the ability to determine that the damage was there before the crash.
Being as how you're not a bicyclist I'll explain this to you in words of one syllable or less to match the audience:

I was ride ing down hill at 35 mph. Af ter the bike veer ed off the road from lack of con trol I drag ged my bo dy a long a hill side to slow the bike down to get con trol a gain. So when I drop ped down in to the cul vert I was on ly do ing a bout 25. Got that? I have the a bi li ty to know that the bike stop ped steer ing cor rect ly.

Or is all that too complicated for your small mind? I road raced motorcycles and was the safety director for the American Federation of Motorcyclists as well.

Would you mind giving us your credentials? I mean aside from your presumed gender?
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Old 07-24-16, 04:02 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
That is truly an ignorant example of how CF is used, on a bike it is used as a frame to support weight and take the load of banging on streets without the aid of any suspension to limit the banging to virtually nothing, on a car it is a body panel that supports only the weight of itself and no load of banging on the streets.
This is a truly ignorant post.
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Old 07-24-16, 04:05 PM
  #156  
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It's getting a bit sad now.
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Old 07-24-16, 04:06 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
First of all, the Colnago warranty is 3 years if you register your purchase, and 3 years was standard for them at least as far back as 2001 when I bought my ALUMINUM Dream Plus.
Do you understand the difference between a warranty and catastrophic failure? The warranty on my car was three years as well and yet 22 years later the front end of the car hasn't fallen off. But I suppose that could be just luck.

Last edited by cyclintom; 07-24-16 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 07-24-16, 04:12 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Gee, I'm sorry all those websites I gave were all wrong, next time I'll just create it instead since it would be believed the same way.
Don't be sorry, just don't be obtuse. I said quite clearly that I was speaking about types of racing other than F1 and listed specifics. If you are so ill-informed that you cannot ell the difference, then educate yourself.

I am sure there are people who cannot tell a time trial bike from a mountain bike as well.

I think you are smarter than that, and I am a little disappointed that you are acting dumb here.

You know, when people present you with information of which you are not aware, insulting those people doesn't make you look really smart.

Look it up. "Pork Chop" was the nickname given to a 2003 Dallara IR3 chassis which Simona de Silvestro raced in 2011. Learn a little something---I promise, it won't hurt long.
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Old 07-24-16, 04:16 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
No, the domain is valid and there is a law-firm page there. Of sorts, non-professional look but it's not that unusual for a one man operation. Gilberto Gentilli, Attorney at Law diritto internazionale - sicurezza prodotti He probably IS an attorney.

He's got OP convinced that CF frames are designed for two years, without actually making that claim, and he implied that the product manual has effectively wavered OP's use of it, again without making any dubious claims. OP has accepted that. Mission accomplished, sounds like an actual lawyer to me.

The thing I take away from this is that Colnago would refer those questions to this guy in the first place, rather than someone in customer service or an engineer even. Any company whose first reaction is having an attorney draft a letter is one to avoid IMO. The only saving grace here is if both bikes were bought used and so OP and his friend weren't actually customers of Conalgo. I'm still inclined to avoid them, regardless of the legitimacy (or lack of), of that letter.
When I had my previous failure of an IRD (also owned by an Italian group) carbon fiber fork the Italian lawyers knew international trade law MUCH better than American lawyers. Are you aware that a European company can post advertisements on the Internet but if they do not advertise them directly in the USA they are not liable for any American trade laws?
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Old 07-24-16, 04:23 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by zonatandem View Post
YIKES!
We must have a real death wish!!!
Photos of our custom full carbon fiber Zona tandem when new in 2003 and c/f lug work; and then photos only 13 years and 45,000+ miles later.
Have broken 2 steel tandem frames and 1 steel fork on tandems.
Have bicycled over 300,000 miles of which a quarter million miles on tandem bicycles with my wife since the early 1970s. Have ridden/owned steel, alu, titanium, bamboo and carbon fiber single bikes and tandems.
ANY material can and willeventually fail.
At ages 83 and 81 we are alive and well and still pedalin' TWOgether!.
I would assume that you know Mike then since he lives and rides in Pheonix. Ask him how safe he now believes carbon fiber to be.
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Old 07-24-16, 04:23 PM
  #161  
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I have had three frames fail - one aluminium and two titanium. My carbon bikes are refusing to die. I think Colnago is simply covering their ass.
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Old 07-24-16, 05:09 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
When I had my previous failure of an IRD (also owned by an Italian group) carbon fiber fork the Italian lawyers knew international trade law MUCH better than American lawyers. Are you aware that a European company can post advertisements on the Internet but if they do not advertise them directly in the USA they are not liable for any American trade laws?
Generally you need a business point of presence to be under the jurisdiction for any of the laws. I would imagine that having dealerships in the US would be sufficient, unless they dealt through a distributor.
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Old 07-24-16, 05:16 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Generally you need a business point of presence to be under the jurisdiction for any of the laws. I would imagine that having dealerships in the US would be sufficient, unless they dealt through a distributor.
Well, as it turns out that business presence needs be nothing more than an INTENT to market to the US which is demonstrated by running ads in the US.
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Old 07-24-16, 05:35 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
Well, as it turns out that business presence needs be nothing more than an INTENT to market to the US which is demonstrated by running ads in the US.
Plus actual business transactions of course, but without a physical point of presence or business relationship with a business in the jurisdiction it's problematic. I once successfully enforced personal jurisdiction over an internet based company based in California, but I could show an actual business office here, I believe I could have, with precedence based on just sales here, but that can go both ways. I'm just going by US law and I don't know anything about international trade law (beyond that it's supposed to be difficult to assert jurisdiction) but I don't imagine that local jurisdiction is easier than between the states. I suspect that just advertising with some intent to sell isn't the full standard and that some additional elements were needed.

Bottom line is, Colnago probably has good reason to try to sidetrack potential product liability claims. Their alleged attorney, who wrote to you, purports to specialize in that.
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Old 07-24-16, 05:42 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Ball Bearing View Post
I have had three frames fail - one aluminium and two titanium. My carbon bikes are refusing to die. I think Colnago is simply covering their ass.
The only bike that ever died on me was a Colnago. A steel Colnago... Didn't even last 10 yrs. Couldn't find anyone locally to weld it up for a trainer bike so it sits in my attic.

It's amusing watching posters trying to convince the very few people around who don't trust carbon that it's safe to ride. Reminds me of the tinfoil hat crowd promoting the 911 conspiracy theories.

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Old 07-24-16, 06:31 PM
  #166  
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It is NOT safe to ride.

Anything.

Ever.

But it's fun.
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Old 07-24-16, 06:34 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
I have the a bi li ty to know that the bike stop ped steer ing cor rect ly.
Ha ha ha. That's rich. You have the ability to detect that the carbon fork was the cause of your inability to steer. I don't know why that type of evidence didn't cause Colnago to send you buckets of cash. Maybe logic tells them that a 25mph crash into a rock wall is more likely the cause of the crack, and the 35mph jaunt over a large bump is more likely the cause of the crash. Your lofty opinion of your ability aside... Occam's razor just cut your story to shreds.

Btw, you've taken to attacking my intelligence.... both for my apparent "stories" that are mere repetitions of your words that you've seemingly forgotten plus my lack of concern for my safety after you've detailed the huge risk I take while riding carbon. For my part I question the intelligence of someone who in 2006 decided that carbon bikes have a two year life...

"if you want to spend big bucks on a high zoot paperlite frame don't be surprised that it will only last a year or two. THAT'S what they were designed for - not a lifetime of use."

In 2009 suffered a catastrophic failure of a carbon fork...

"On December 17, 2009, I was riding down a bicycle trail. My ITM carbon fiber fork simply came unglued on one side and the other broke off dumping me on my face and knocking me out for over 5 minutes."

And now almost 8 years later you've finally decided to warn us that carbon bikes only last 2 years after faceplanting into a wall after yet another ride on your 10+ year old carbon bike. So I'm stupid for ignoring your advice, having had zero problems with my carbon bikes over the last 20 years, but you think you're splitting atoms given your history? Hilarious. Your actions belie your credentials.

Last edited by DaveWC; 07-24-16 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 07-24-16, 07:40 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
The only bike that ever died on me was a Colnago. A steel Colnago... Didn't even last 10 yrs. Couldn't find anyone locally to weld it up for a trainer bike so it sits in my attic.

It's amusing watching posters trying to convince the very few people around who don't trust carbon that it's safe to ride. Reminds me of the tinfoil hat crowd promoting the 911 conspiracy theories.

It's obvious that the frame hit something.

Here, you want see pictures? Here's some: http://www.bustedcarbon.com/
https://www.google.com/search?q=brok...w=1280&bih=631
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Old 07-24-16, 07:44 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
It's obvious that the frame hit something.
Nope. Didn't hit anything. Just fatigue over 8-9 yrs of riding. The BB is constantly flexing and eventually will give out. A stiff BB is a significant benefit of CF over steel.
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Old 07-24-16, 07:53 PM
  #170  
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[QUOTE=wphamilton;18934460]No, the domain is valid and there is a law-firm page there. Of sorts, non-professional look but it's not that unusual for a one man operation. Gilberto Gentilli, Attorney at Law diritto internazionale - sicurezza prodotti He probably IS an attorney.

/QUOTE]

That's not the domain name given in the letter. You found that through Google, no doubt.
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Old 07-24-16, 08:17 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Nope. Didn't hit anything. Just fatigue over 8-9 yrs of riding. The BB is constantly flexing and eventually will give out. A stiff BB is a significant benefit of CF over steel.
BS, I have a bike with over 160,000 miles on it almost all of it mountain riding, with about 100,000 miles of racing at Cat 3 level and training in the mountains of California that is 29 years old when I stopped using it and the frame is fine. I also rode it a lot in rain, though not as much as people in some areas due to the climate, I also used it along the coast where salt air and fog was around a lot. I took the BB apart about 5 or so years ago to take a peek at the BB shell for signs of rust and it looked fine.

That's not to say that any frame material can't fail, steel if not taken care of water can get down there especially if no drain hole is in the bottom of the BB shell, and sit and start steel to rust on the inside down at the bottom bracket area and can cause issues which is why I always greased (using marine grease) the inside of the seat tube and the seat post before inserting, and it's why I kept the BB well lubed including the threads and the shell interior, and I also annually greased the bolts and bolt hole threads that the water bottle cages attached to, the brake caliper bolts and threads, keeping the stem greased, on the headset I also used a Lizard Skin headset wrap to further protect the headset area from water getting inside. All of this water if not stopped makes it down to the BB shell where it sets for years and gets rust to start and progress, a lot of cheaper steel frames also rusted faster than the higher quality tubesets.

The only bike I had that rusted out on the inside was a cheap Schwinn Traveler made of cheap steel, but I also didn't take the extreme measures to protect it like the racing bike, and I actually rode it right onto sand that was wet from ocean surf and the entire bike would get drenched in salt water, that bike maybe had 20,000 miles on it and it lasted a bit over 30 years but the BB shell never failed, I junked it because the inside of the BB shell was rusted pretty bad which probably would have failed over time had I rode it.

Why not show us some pics of the whole entire bike including the fork and wheels attached?
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Old 07-24-16, 08:34 PM
  #172  
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Cyclingtom


Do not know the OP.
Have lived in AZ (Tucson area) for 38+ years and he lives 100+ miles north in Phoenix area.
He is entitled to his opinion/experiences.
However to generalize that all c/f is dangerous after his issue with a Colnago is preposterous.
Suggest he fins another hobby!
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Old 07-24-16, 08:48 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by skye View Post
That's not the domain name given in the letter. You found that through Google, no doubt.
It's in his email address so it didn't take all that much Googling But regardless it's a real page not a fake Facebook one. He's also go a Linkedin profile but very brief - all in all, although I believe him to be an attorney it's hard to take him seriously.
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Old 07-24-16, 09:20 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
BS, I have a bike with over 160,000 miles on it almost all of it mountain riding, with about 100,000 miles of racing at Cat 3 level and training in the mountains of California that is 29 years old when I stopped using it and the frame is fine.
Wonderful. What's your point? Steel can't fail because of your n=1 experiment? Strong logic you're working with.
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Old 07-24-16, 11:36 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Wonderful. What's your point? Steel can't fail because of your n=1 experiment? Strong logic you're working with.
Let's see that picture of the complete bike.

Besides I see you didn't read my entire post, you skipped right past the 2nd paragraph, I guess reading wasn't a strong point of yours.
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