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I Think my LBS is Doing Something Really Shady

Old 07-26-16, 08:38 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Or it could easily be a simple mistake on the part of the shop.
Hanlon's Razor comes to mind. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

May well have been as simple as the new kid putting on the tags heard the '17 Specializeds were starting to come in, and assumed all that went out on the floor were '17. If it is any sort of large chain, I highly doubt there is any shenanigans going on, corporate tends to frown on such things. I agree with the advice above: a simple "I thought the '17s came only in blue and dropped $50", and if the person argues with you about it, a quick pulling out of the cell phone and showing them the Specialized page should give you their intentions in a hurry.
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Old 07-26-16, 08:55 AM
  #27  
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Did you ask to speak to a manager or owner so you could simply ask them why it appears they are incorrectly tagging items?
Can't imagine why you wouldn't if it bothered you enough that you are questioning their ethics on a forum?
Regardless or not if you haven't referenced their name.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:29 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Luke Jackson View Post
Did you ask to speak to a manager or owner so you could simply ask them why it appears they are incorrectly tagging items?
Can't imagine why you wouldn't if it bothered you enough that you are questioning their ethics on a forum?
Regardless or not if you haven't referenced their name.

+1. I often wonder if the Interwebs has ******** people's ability to address issues in logical manner. We had a guy on our club's list serve who was unhappy about service he got from a shop. He started a conversation about it, asking "What would you do if this happened to you?" (One of the complaints was the tiniest of nits: purple cable end caps.) My response: I would go back to the shop and speak with the owner, who is usually there and very accessible.


Heh. The censor bot bleeped out the word that earned the film "Tropic Thunder" some bad press. In the context above, its use is not derogatory.
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Old 07-26-16, 11:20 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Hanlon's Razor comes to mind. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

May well have been as simple as the new kid putting on the tags heard the '17 Specializeds were starting to come in, and assumed all that went out on the floor were '17. If it is any sort of large chain, I highly doubt there is any shenanigans going on, corporate tends to frown on such things. I agree with the advice above: a simple "I thought the '17s came only in blue and dropped $50", and if the person argues with you about it, a quick pulling out of the cell phone and showing them the Specialized page should give you their intentions in a hurry.
Incompetence is a given at just about any and every bike shop. I don't even trust them to weigh a bike properly.
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Old 07-26-16, 11:47 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
Color and price. I'm new to bikes and don't know my components by looks unless they explicitly say the model, lots of times they just generically say Shimano or whatever. If the 2016 and 2017 base disc were both listed as $600 on Specialized's site, then I could see the orange maybe just being a mistaken omission on Specialized's site for 2017 color options (I've seen several mistakes on their site such as the 2017 Sport lists a Zertz fork but the image is without), but if both the color and price are off, I suspect it isn't a website mistake.

In any regards, we'll see what Specialized says.
Sorry if my comment about components, etc. was snarky. I (we?) sometimes forget that most cyclists aren't gear nerds and don't really know about or care about the sometimes subtle and functionally meaningless (but meaningful for cost) differences among the stuff. But when you compare even $50 of difference in cost, you might see a significant difference in, say wheels that easily justifies the cost difference up or down.

I'll be interested in what you find out.
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Old 07-26-16, 11:52 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
+1. I often wonder if the Interwebs has ******** people's ability to address issues in logical manner. We had a guy on our club's list serve who was unhappy about service he got from a shop. He started a conversation about it, asking "What would you do if this happened to you?" (One of the complaints was the tiniest of nits: purple cable end caps.) My response: I would go back to the shop and speak with the owner, who is usually there and very accessible.


Heh. The censor bot bleeped out the word that earned the film "Tropic Thunder" some bad press. In the context above, its use is not derogatory.
I had the censor bot bleep the name of the tool that is similar to a hand held hair dryer and is used to warm things up? into heat ***. I'll try it again: heat gun.

[edit] hey it worked this time! The censor bot can learn! I'll try just gun
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Old 07-26-16, 01:58 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
I see this listed on the Specialized website without a model year attribution, at $600: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...us-disc/107451

So what's the problem?

If it is projected that there will be enough orange bikes still in stock with Specialized at the end of they year, the Orange bikes could very well be sold as "carry-over" models, and truthfully labeled as '17 bikes. Which decision might already have been made by Specialized.
There is no model year attribution on it, but until 2 weeks ago there were no 2017s listed on the site, which gives rise to the logical assumption that the bikes that were on there already (such as this orange one) are 2016 models (I also did mention earlier that I think the model year is given by the last two numbers in the first number of the part number, but I have found at least 1 2017 that uses a "16" in this position and I'm not sure if it's just another Specialized website mistake). The 2017s are highlighted as such to draw attention to the fact they are new models, but the '16s are presumably still up so people can compare the models as they change with the new model year. I imagine in time the currently unlabeled old models will drop off, and the 2017s will have the "2017" removed from the tag when they become the sole models on the site. And then in 2018, the 2018s will start out highlighted as 2018s, rinse and repeat.

If they were going to sell these as "carry over" 2017s, then they should update the site to be consistent with what is being offered in the stores - there shouldn't be any discrepancy. And on that note, any of the 5-6 2016 Sirrus Sports they had should've/would've been relabeled as 2017s as well, but they were not. Personally I think it would be bizarre to release a model year of a bike, and then if there were XXX in inventory at the end of the year, to just retag them as the current model year. Would that even be legal? Pretty sure you cannot do that with cars. At that point, why bother with model years at all?

Originally Posted by Luke Jackson View Post
Did you ask to speak to a manager or owner so you could simply ask them why it appears they are incorrectly tagging items?
Can't imagine why you wouldn't if it bothered you enough that you are questioning their ethics on a forum?
Regardless or not if you haven't referenced their name.
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
+1. I often wonder if the Interwebs has ******** people's ability to address issues in logical manner. We had a guy on our club's list serve who was unhappy about service he got from a shop. He started a conversation about it, asking "What would you do if this happened to you?" (One of the complaints was the tiniest of nits: purple cable end caps.) My response: I would go back to the shop and speak with the owner, who is usually there and very accessible.
No, and I've already addressed this. I wasn't going to call out the owner or manager and start probing until I had informed myself (via here where I presume people are much more knowledgeable than the average guy at the bike shop, god knows not asking people at the car dealership and getting my info online/elsewhere on my own accord has served me well) if Specialized does something odd that I am unaware of. Considering this is my nearest Specialized dealer I presumably would like to buy and service here if possible, so probably best to do some homework on my own into the issue before asking them questions that I may not need to ask them. Again, being new to bikes, I can potentially save myself some embarrassment by doing my own homework first.

Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
Sorry if my comment about components, etc. was snarky. I (we?) sometimes forget that most cyclists aren't gear nerds and don't really know about or care about the sometimes subtle and functionally meaningless (but meaningful for cost) differences among the stuff. But when you compare even $50 of difference in cost, you might see a significant difference in, say wheels that easily justifies the cost difference up or down.

I'll be interested in what you find out.
Nope, I didn't take it that way, no worries. I know several components are different and I had done some comparisons on the site for the base model a week or so ago, but I was not expecting to encounter what I did yesterday nor would I have remembered any of those spec comparisons on the fly yesterday to do a quick check without looking like I was really trying to investigate something with my phone in my hand.

Still no word from Specialized.
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Old 07-26-16, 02:32 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
Personally I think it would be bizarre to release a model year of a bike, and then if there were XXX in inventory at the end of the year, to just retag them as the current model year. Would that even be legal? Pretty sure you cannot do that with cars. At that point, why bother with model years at all?
From what I've learned over in the C&V world, using last year's frames with this year's components used to be no big deal at all, assuming there was no frame change. Frames are often coming in from a different place than components to be assembled, if you've got a pile of left over orange frames from '16 that are no different except for color from the '17 models, it only makes sense you are going to use them up with the new components before you start using the frames that are only a different color.

And yes, in the auto world parts are swapped out all the time on the same model year. Mostly it will go without notice by the consumer, but sometimes it can be more substantial. In any case, cars are far more regulated in regards to model year, for emissions and safety requirements compliance. Bike model years are nothing but marketing.
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Old 07-26-16, 03:35 PM
  #34  
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No offense but imo simply asking someone on the spot to clarify something that is bothering you is in no way 'calling them out'
I guess I am old fashioned though.
Go to the web first as opposed to actually speaking to a person face to face.
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Old 07-26-16, 03:44 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels View Post
Did you show him your badge.

How does one become a model police?
Instead of a wise remark, why not tell us what your point is?
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Old 07-26-16, 03:49 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
From what I've learned over in the C&V world, using last year's frames with this year's components used to be no big deal at all, assuming there was no frame change. Frames are often coming in from a different place than components to be assembled, if you've got a pile of left over orange frames from '16 that are no different except for color from the '17 models, it only makes sense you are going to use them up with the new components before you start using the frames that are only a different color.

And yes, in the auto world parts are swapped out all the time on the same model year. Mostly it will go without notice by the consumer, but sometimes it can be more substantial. In any case, cars are far more regulated in regards to model year, for emissions and safety requirements compliance. Bike model years are nothing but marketing.
I think you are right: With free market economics, I think we are going to see more and more de-regulation to the point when designations like "year and even "model" will just be, as you say, marketing tools.
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Old 07-26-16, 06:25 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
From what I've learned over in the C&V world, using last year's frames with this year's components used to be no big deal at all, assuming there was no frame change. Frames are often coming in from a different place than components to be assembled, if you've got a pile of left over orange frames from '16 that are no different except for color from the '17 models, it only makes sense you are going to use them up with the new components before you start using the frames that are only a different color.
This is totally reasonable, to use leftover orange '16 frames and fit them with '17 components and sell them as '17s if the frame is the same sans color. Problem is, the price is the higher '16 price, not the lower '17 price that you'd expect if they were fitting it with lower grade '17 components to sell as a '17.
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Old 07-27-16, 07:02 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
This is totally reasonable, to use leftover orange '16 frames and fit them with '17 components and sell them as '17s if the frame is the same sans color. Problem is, the price is the higher '16 price, not the lower '17 price that you'd expect if they were fitting it with lower grade '17 components to sell as a '17.
In that case, it is something really easy to call them out on. In any case, MSRP is Manufactures Suggested Retail Price. I don't know if Specialized requires them to sell at that price, but even with cars, you could easily pay over sticker for a popular model.
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Old 07-27-16, 07:12 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by 1989Pre View Post
I think you are right: With free market economics, I think we are going to see more and more de-regulation to the point when designations like "year and even "model" will just be, as you say, marketing tools.
What "regulation" ever regulated the use of year and model designations in the bicycle industry?
When was year and model designation for bicycles not chiefly a marketing tool?
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Old 07-27-16, 07:35 AM
  #40  
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do they put out "half" model years? a lot of car manufacturers for example, make slight modifications in mid-year production runs before they release a full-on new model year. perhaps that's what's going on here? either way, it's really not that uncommon for any business to be less than totally honest in their marketing to try to get you to buy. have you ever seen a picture of a burger in a mcdonalds ad and compared it to the actual product?
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Old 07-27-16, 07:51 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
There is no model year attribution on it, but until 2 weeks ago there were no 2017s listed on the site, which gives rise to the logical assumption that the bikes that were on there already (such as this orange one) are 2016 models (I also did mention earlier that I think the model year is given by the last two numbers in the first number of the part number, but I have found at least 1 2017 that uses a "16" in this position and I'm not sure if it's just another Specialized website mistake). The 2017s are highlighted as such to draw attention to the fact they are new models, but the '16s are presumably still up so people can compare the models as they change with the new model year. I imagine in time the currently unlabeled old models will drop off, and the 2017s will have the "2017" removed from the tag when they become the sole models on the site. And then in 2018, the 2018s will start out highlighted as 2018s, rinse and repeat.

If they were going to sell these as "carry over" 2017s, then they should update the site to be consistent with what is being offered in the stores - there shouldn't be any discrepancy. And on that note, any of the 5-6 2016 Sirrus Sports they had should've/would've been relabeled as 2017s as well, but they were not. Personally I think it would be bizarre to release a model year of a bike, and then if there were XXX in inventory at the end of the year, to just retag them as the current model year. Would that even be legal? Pretty sure you cannot do that with cars. At that point, why bother with model years at all?





No, and I've already addressed this. I wasn't going to call out the owner or manager and start probing until I had informed myself (via here where I presume people are much more knowledgeable than the average guy at the bike shop, god knows not asking people at the car dealership and getting my info online/elsewhere on my own accord has served me well) if Specialized does something odd that I am unaware of. Considering this is my nearest Specialized dealer I presumably would like to buy and service here if possible, so probably best to do some homework on my own into the issue before asking them questions that I may not need to ask them. Again, being new to bikes, I can potentially save myself some embarrassment by doing my own homework first.



Nope, I didn't take it that way, no worries. I know several components are different and I had done some comparisons on the site for the base model a week or so ago, but I was not expecting to encounter what I did yesterday nor would I have remembered any of those spec comparisons on the fly yesterday to do a quick check without looking like I was really trying to investigate something with my phone in my hand.

Still no word from Specialized.

You need to chill out and do two things:


1) Go look at the damn bikes and figure out if the component spec is the same as the bikes you saw on the website. Someone earlier alluded to being a gear nerd in order to know the difference between component sets...if you can't figure out how to use google to look up component specs then you are a nave consumer.


2) Talk to a store rep. Speculating over the internet is a complete waste of time, the answer could be as simple as "yes, we upgraded the wheelsets and tires to this..." but you'll never know that because you refuse to actually talk to someone in person...gasp, you mean talk to someone???


This isn't a conspiracy.


Originally Posted by 1989Pre View Post
Instead of a wise remark, why not tell us what your point is?

You missed it, completely.
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Old 07-27-16, 10:57 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Hanlon's Razor comes to mind. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.
I'd never heard of this; funny...
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Old 07-27-16, 12:36 PM
  #43  
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I find it hard to believe they would go against Specialized spec on what they have on the model floor. A shop close to me started carrying specialized and Specialized just about bullied every other manufacture of frames out of the store or they would pull all product... This was told to me by one of the employees and they said that's the norm with specialized so why would a shop take chances knowing or having to comply with this... Before going to the manufacturer talk to the manager or shop owner (Hmmm never thought of that) instead of possibly getting them in trouble and possible have to close... I make a habit of getting to know the people at all the shops... Never know when you need something warrantied...
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Old 07-27-16, 12:43 PM
  #44  
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No specialized dealer in town , here..
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Old 07-27-16, 08:58 PM
  #45  
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So stopped by another bike shop in the same chain tonight on the way home from work to try out a '16 Elite and ask about '17 Sports. They had the same thing going on with the base/base disc as the other shop, so I looked at the bike tag from the manufacturer and they said '16s. I then looked on the Specialized site and they are now sort of combining the '16s and '17s. While the '17s are still listed the same as the other day, they've now listed a price range for the '16s on both models, so I guess Specialized is somehow just carrying over the leftover '16s and changing them to '17s or something. *shrug*

Didn't care to ask the guys at this shop about it since I had plenty of questions about the Elite and upcoming Sport and while it still isn't entirely clear what's going on, the changes on the Specialized site tell me whatever it is is happening on Specialized's end so there you have it.
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Old 07-27-16, 09:42 PM
  #46  
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Most store owners appreciate customers asking questions. If there's something controversial, they like people to bring it up in an honest and non-confrontational way.

It's certainly easy to just ask the LBS this question. No need to jump to conclusions or think the response will be anything but informative and honest.
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Old 07-28-16, 08:13 AM
  #47  
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The components are slightly better on the orange model
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Old 07-29-16, 10:21 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
So I stopped off at my LBS ...I'd hate to name the shop (it's a chain), but hard to support my LBS if they are doing something dishonest...
How BIG of a chain? Big Chain sellers of boutique items (like bikes or guitars) often get spec things out slightly different than the general market. If the buyer likes red but not blue, he's going to get 10,000 red frames or bodies instead of blue ones.
It could be as simple as that.
Or they could be trying to stiff you.
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Old 07-29-16, 07:09 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
I believe there are some changes, but I didn't look at the bikes close enough in person. I have gathered that the year is in Specialized's part/model number (last two digits in first number), but didn't think to look close at the manufacturer's tag on the bike...but don't really have any good reason to think they wouldn't say 2016.
I feel like you are not even looking to buy a bike.
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Old 07-29-16, 08:09 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by MR BIG STUFF View Post
I feel like you are not even looking to buy a bike.
I feel like your statement is completely unfounded, and pointless.

Test rode 3 more bikes tonight.
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