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Faster tire? Continental GatorSkin?

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Faster tire? Continental GatorSkin?

Old 09-08-16, 09:10 AM
  #26  
ThermionicScott 
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
No, but he was a huge Zappa fan. Did I just learn that my friend ripped that saying off?
I've always heard that saying attributed to FZ. It's a great one.
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Old 09-08-16, 09:11 AM
  #27  
Seattle Forrest
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Originally Posted by billyymc View Post
From the link: "At 80 psi, rolling resistance is 22.0 watts, which means rolling resistance is 8.3 watts higher when compared to a GP4000S II at 80 psi (13.7 watts)"

Can anyone explain to me what that means in real world terms? For example, in my regular 14 mile one way commute to work, how much faster will I be on GP4000s than on Gatorskins?
No one can really explain that to you because there's too much "it depends." You could go exactly the same speed and work less hard to do it.

Also, rolling resistance is not the only benefit of better tires. Let's not be myopic here.
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Old 09-08-16, 09:14 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by dingadinga View Post
Right, not Gatorskins, but GP400S II. I did copy paste wrong.
You should edit your original post, save all the gatorskin reactions. But, while I'm here, Gatorskins are great for crunching over urban debri, I ride 'em as trainers on my tourer.
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Old 09-08-16, 10:02 AM
  #29  
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I do think the GP 4000sII is a great tire for a mix of durability and speed. It's my favorite of all my tires and I run it on my tribike. My road bike currently has Gators on them though since the roads of NOLA are pretty rough in general. I find acceleration is definitely affected for me on my road bike. Once I'm up to speed in a group, it's not really an issue but I just don't seem to have the same kick on those tires. It's good to train on though!
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Old 09-08-16, 10:37 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
No one can really explain that to you because there's too much "it depends." You could go exactly the same speed and work less hard to do it.

Also, rolling resistance is not the only benefit of better tires. Let's not be myopic here.
SF - if the rolling resistance translates into watts why can't someone estimate how much faster I'd be on my 14 mile commute? Android swag'd it at least. The control test results of 8 watts is silly - because as you yourself admit "there's too much 'it depends'." in the real world.

You always denounce Gatorskins like they're akin to riding a square wheel made of bricks. IMO you overstate the downsides, and in doing so you might turn people away from what might be a very good tire for their use.

Road feel is purely subjective. As for grip, I ride them on all kinds of road surfaces, in pouring rain at times, and have never had a single instance where I lost traction.

IMO gatorskins aren't the pigs you make them out to be.
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Old 09-08-16, 11:16 AM
  #31  
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tires, saddles and pedals on most new bikes are not worth riding, at least partly because bike makers expect you to personalize these items.
Specialized may be the exception on saddles - they've made a specific effort here.

And yes, there are many tire choices better than Gatorskins.
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Old 09-08-16, 12:07 PM
  #32  
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Fast? That depends on the motor and caffeine level.
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Old 09-09-16, 10:23 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by billyymc View Post
SF - if the rolling resistance translates into watts why can't someone estimate how much faster I'd be on my 14 mile commute?
Plug it in here: Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator
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Old 09-09-16, 10:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by FullGas View Post
Gators are not known for their great ride characteristics...

my fave description is they're like rolling on pieces of frozen garden hose.
That is not my experience with gatorskins.
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Old 04-21-20, 06:28 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by dingadinga View Post
By reading reviews in Amazon, I found it interesting to see that many people gained speed from stock tire to a better tire, e.g., Continental GatorSkin tire, as much as 10~15%. If that's true, I guess it would be the single most important and cheapest upgrade. Is this a common knowledge? If it is the case, I feel so stupid that I had spent all the money on upgrades (bike, wheels, components) except the cheapest and most effective way.
Switching to faster tires will have greater effect than any equipment changes you make except aerobars

Continental Gatorskins can use 20W more at 20 MPH (out of 200) than faster tires like the GP4000SII. Gatorskins are a flat resistant tire that's not too horrible otherwise. GP4000s are a fast tire with not bad flat protection and good life - I get about the same mileage as Gatorskins at 4500 miles in front plus the same in back.

Unfortunately, saving 20W will only make you 3-4% faster on flat ground. While rolling resistance is constant and power overcoming it linear, aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of velocity and power its cube.

https://www.quora.com/Does-upgrading.../Drew-Eckhardt


Significant gains with their power savings at that speed (20 MPH) are:
  • Aero bars at 50 W, because the accompanying position cuts rider drag by 1/3.
  • Good tires at 10–20 W.
  • An aero jersey at 5–10 W depending on your starting point. The big aerodynamic improvements are here with 80% of drag coming from the rider and just 20% the bike.
  • Latex tubes saving 2.6–6.6 W but requiring inflating your tires daily instead of weekly.
Wheels and weight don’t make the list especially at that speed.

Wheel makers measure at 30 MPH where drag requires 3.4 times the power to overcome as it does at 20 MPH. They often compare against the venerable Mavic Open Pro which was slow 20 years ago. They sometimes use atypical crosswind situations.

At 30 MPH (700 W on a drop bar bike without someone blocking wind) Tour Magazine measured 11 W between best and worst wheels, which is 3.2 W at 20 MPH.

November Wheels measured good alloy wheels doing 2W better at low angles of attack than the 45 mm Zipp 303 with a 7.5 W maximum spread at higher angles which is only 2.2 W at 20 MPH. The HED Belgium+ was within 4 W at 0 degrees with a worst case 12 W departure becoming 1.2 W and 3.5 W at 20 MPH respectively. $2000 Zipps do less for you than a $25 pair of latex tubes.

...


Weight won’t make a measurable difference on flat ground, and the speedup is usually negligible uphill.

The least expensive new road bike at a bicycle shop will run about $700 and weigh 10.5 kg. This Tommaso with 3x8 Shimano Claris drive train on an aluminum frame is representative of what you’ll get:

Tommaso Imola Review | Few Things You Should Consider

Trek’s $11,000 2017 Emoda “lightest production bike” weighed 6.08 kg sans pedals for 6.3 kg total ready to ride. It eschewed disc brakes and more aerodynamic wheels to hit that target.

Trek unveils world's lightest production road bike a day before the Tour de France

On flat ground 4.2 kg * 8.9 m/s (20 MPH) * 9.8 m/s^2 gravity * 0.004 Crr = 1.5 W.

Up hill, the speed difference is proportional to the change in total weight. A 70 kg rider at 200 W netting 20 MPH on flat ground will do about 8.4 MPH up a typical 6% mountain grade on the 10.5 kg bike, and 8.8 MPH on 6.3 kg bike.

On a ride with 3000 feet of 6% grades, switching between those extreme examples saves just 3 minutes of 68 climbing. Doing that as part of a pleasant loop not hill repeats you’d probably have a 4 hour ride making the total difference 1%.

More realistic changes would be much smaller, like going to a 9 kg carbon fiber Shimano 105 bike totaling 9.3 kg with pedals then knocking 500 g off the wheels. The same rider would save 60 seconds with the 1.2 kg bike upgrade, and another 25 seconds with the new wheels.

Rotating weight is only a theoretical concern. If that 500 g was where the rubber meets the road it would count double accelerating for up to 1.3% of total kinetic energy. However, accelerating that rotating weight from 0–20 MPH takes only 2 (kinetic energy rotating + in a straight line) * 0.5 kg * (8.9 m/s)^2 / 1000 kj / j = 0.079 kj which is what you spend covering 12 feet at 20 MPH requiring 35 kj / mile.

Reducing rotating weight can make you slower when it comes with an aerodynamic penalty, even in the mountains. With a 170 pound rider producing 250W taking 1:09:44, shallow 1100 g wheels where “The aerodynamic properties given to this wheel were that of a common training wheel like a Mavic Open Pro. “ would be 2 seconds slower than a 1624 g pair with more aerodynamic 30mm aluminum rims up the 8.2 mile l’Alpe d’Huez climb.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 04-21-20 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 04-21-20, 07:01 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
oo have a new toy to play with. thanks

forget tires. use your drop bars

160 watts on drops to go 19.3 mph
or
217 watts hands on top to go 19.3 mph

that's like 35% increase to go the same pace.



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Old 04-21-20, 07:14 PM
  #37  
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I like my Gatorskins well enough for commuting. You have to balance the minute or two saved riding with the greater time lost fixing flats in weather and what that costs in being late.
I also like them for touring. I recently bumped my 28's up to 32's. If I were racing it might be different.

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Old 04-21-20, 08:06 PM
  #38  
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No flats in 6 years, thats the thing I admire about the Gatorskins. I’m sure other tires are a bit faster, or possibly ride a bit better, but I’d much rather forgo bringing a pump, spare tube, or patch kit along for the ride, and I really no longer even consider it. Most of my rides are 50 miles or less, out and back though, no multi-day touring.
Tim

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Old 04-21-20, 09:12 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
oo have a new toy to play with. thanks

forget tires. use your drop bars
Actually hands on hoods with forearms level is fastest, and people generally don't ride on the tops when their bike fits. Moving from hoods to drops yields only a small change because the reduction in frontal area is offset by a greater drag coefficient.

About like this. Reaching down to the drops would expose Niki Terpstra's forearms to the wind.

https://road.cc/content/news/133598-...ker-down-hoods

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 04-21-20 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 04-21-20, 09:31 PM
  #40  
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Gatorskins down by the river.............................................................................

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