Jarrett2

Why do you ask?

prj71

This is what you should have ate before the ride. You wouldn't have bonked then.

memebag

Thanks!

Did someone present me with new data here?

redlude97

well as intensity goes up so does glycogen dependance for both keto and carb based athletes, and the slope is steeper for keto based athletes at threshold

Zoroman

This is valuable info but we need more info:


1) Did you drink alcohol the day/night before, if yes, how much?
2) How old are you?
3) Are you overweight, if so by how much?
4) Is your work stressful did you feel STRESSED the day/week before this event?
5) Do you have high blood pressure or are you diabetic?
6) Are you depressed?
7) How long have you been "dieting"?
8) How much sugar do you actually consume and that includes juices?




I agree with the others here who say one solution does not fit all. I know some people swear by high sugar drinks like Gatorade, or high carb drinks or food bars loaded with sodium and sugar, etc. I cannot do any of those things! They make me feel like crap. I cannot do high sodium or high sugar. I know me. I have tried and it does not work and I know this goes against what a lot of people believe.


REAL Fruit works for me and not fruit cups in sugary syrup. and NOT juice which in almost all cases is high sugared FLAVORED WATER!


I think in general there is an OVERCOMPENSATION with this exercise and what you need. I personally think, in general people, the trend is to eat way too much and drink way too much and people peddle around and think they have to ingest themselves up with a lot of food and water even when they are only moderately exercising, but they treat it like--- 'OMG if I don't keep constant hydrating and pumping sugars in my I will surely DIE!!! Ahhhhhhhh! DIE DIE DIE!'


I am fine with NO sugar diluted green or black TEA and high protein diet with real vegetables, a lot of raw vegetables and herbs, and real fruit and cut back on JUICES and processed food and drinks of all types.


I have not bonked since doing this. But I have bonked when I listened to others who insisted I had to do bars, sugar and fill up on all this processes crap that has actually has sugar.


Some people cannot do the sugar thing. I know others may say --- 'OH your body doesn't know the difference they are all the same to your body'. Well, my body has proven to me there is a difference and I will not follow this advice for ME anymore because I have experimented enough and I know what doe sand does NOT work for me.

redlude97

it was in the link to the peer reviewed paper with over 1000 citations that you didn't click on because you're not a doctor, so apparently there is no way to interpret

Zoroman

I know many people who literally walk around life with feed bags and they are constantly hydrating and worrying about hydrating and eating.


Most of them feel like crap and they are overweight and yet they've convinced themselves they must keep this regime they will die or get sick.


They are eating drinking way too much!

BlazingPedals

I'm no doctor and I'm not take sides other than to say (anecdotal) that I regularly do morning rides - without eating breakfast first - of 2-3 hours before a food stop. I've never bonked on one, regardless of whether I'm at my spring training level or my mid-summer level.

Jarrett2

z4 3:48 2%
z3 9:02 5%
z2 40:16 23%
z1 1:53:37 66%

nycphotography

There you go, 98% of the effort was in the fat burning zones, with 93% in the "I can do this all day" zone.

Zoroman

I'm with you, Blazing, on this.... I think there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much worrying about food and sugar intake and it is making people feel like ****t.

memebag

Did you read the link? The abstract (from 1986) says:

So the athletes they studied could go 3 hours before fatigue without sugar water, or 4 hours with sugar water.

And from this you deduce that sugar water doesn't help? Or that the 90 minute glycogen supply number is wrong as an average?

Jarrett2

Sweet, I nailed it then. I want to burn fat, not sugar.

Jarrett2

Here's the whole thing. I guess I spend some time in the uppers:

Z7 1:33 0%
Z6 0:33 0%
Z5 1:31 0%
Z4 3:48 2%
Z3 9:02 5%
Z2 40:16 23%
Z1 1:53:37 66%

redlude97

Did you read more than the abstract? Sugar water does not help below 3 hours, if your ride is longer then you should account for this. If by wrong you mean off by more than 50%, as you can clearly see from the actual paper(Fig 5), there is still glycogen consumption at 3 hours, meaning there was still glycogen stores for 1.5 hours longer(2x) than the 90 min threshold that you claim in which ALL glycogen is consumed. Muscle glycogen based on biopsies at 3 hours was not significantly different at 3h either(Fig 1C)

redlude97

If you are truely keto adapted and well trained you can be spending more time in Z3/Z4

Jarrett2

I don't do it for performance, just for health and weight loss.

So no desire to go faster, even if I theoretically could.

This is about as hard as I ride anymore and its rarely this tough:

Z7 0:08 0%
Z6 0:11 0%
Z5 0:19 0%
Z4 1:18 2%
Z3 5:55 9%
Z2 29:48 49%
Z1 22:50 37%

That was a 19.5 mph average ride.

memebag

It did help, though. They were able to go an hour longer before fatique.


For those athletes, in that study. They say they are highly trained endurance athletes. I don't think the OP is.

Why so much energy around this issue?

redlude97

It did not help though for under 3 hours in terms of muscle glycogen consumption. If you stop after 3 hours your performance was exactly the same. Just like if we used your assumption of 90 mins, carbs used would make no difference in the time period before your theoretical exhaustion at 70% V02max because muscle glycogen consumption rate is the same between the groups. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You are just moving the goalposts

They are highly trained in that they can already ride 3 hours, which is why they use % v02max which varies with each individual and operating under strenuous exercise as opposed to endurance which many would set at closer to 60% v02 max.

redlude97

The thing is though if you are operating at Z1-Z3 for 90+% of the ride you are burning mostly fat already anyways regardless of being keto adapted or not, while it has worked for you, it doesn't prove your point.

memebag

First, the 90 minute figure is provided by many sources. It isn't my "assumption". I've seen it given as an average for experienced cyclists.

Second, the flavored water group was fatigued after 3 hours. The sugar water group was not. From where I sit, the sugar water helped.

Third, again, why so much energy around this issue? It seems to upset you when people say glycogen is exhausted after 90 minutes of moderate exercise. How come?

elcruxio

Did you read those articles? I'll quote the relevant point from the Livestrong article (which I would not trust much, as I wouldn't the Bicycling article either)

There was also this nugget of hilarity, which is of course absolute and total bull if applied to healthy people.

The above quote applies to insulin dependent diabetics who can't turn off their insulin in time, but if a healthy person would need a snack every time glycogen stores are depleted,
A) a ketogenic diet would not be possible
B) fasting more than a day or two would be fatal and
C) the human race would have gone extinct the second they faced their first winter.

As for the study you linked, I'd like to read the actual study and not just read the abstract which doesn't in fact tell us much. I'd need actual numbers on what common means etc.

The Bicycling article actually confirmed my previous point. We're talking about glycogen depletion, not hypoglycemia. I am willing to admit that glycogen depletion can cause mild hypoglycemic episodes in some individuals and the symptoms can be similiar. However if you do get hypoglycemia as a healthy person, you won't stay that way for long as the body does have systems in place to maintain blood glucose levels.
But the whole hypoglycemia thing is largely irrelevant since it's not dangerous for a healthy person and it won't last. And it'll likely be very mild in terms hypoglycemias.

elcruxio

If you can store 2000 calories worth of glycogen when fully tanked up, you'd have to be going at a pretty good clip to use that up in 90 minutes. That'd be like 1300 calories per hour, which for me would be 300% FTP pace

memebag

They also say:

and

You said:

I linked these articles because they say a healthy person can achieve hypoglycemia.

I seem to have run into people with Strong Beliefs. Probably nothing I can say to influence those beliefs.

Who knew sugar water was so important?

Jarrett2

What was my point?