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Bonked

Old 06-07-17, 11:36 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Since you are using a power meter what is your FTP and what was your zone distribution for that ride?
Why do you ask?
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Old 06-07-17, 11:39 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by bscarpenter
I had a banana and went to get breakfast with my family. I ate an egg white omelette, two pieces of toast and a fruit cup and some juice. I still felt like crap. I had plenty of water.
This is what you should have ate before the ride. You wouldn't have bonked then.
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Old 06-07-17, 11:40 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
You mean like other doctors who actually specialize in the subject? If you expect to get the whole truth from a blurb on the internet written by a doctor, and stick your head in the sand when presented with new data, then you are in for a harsh reality, or i supposed you can choose to remain blissfully ignorant as well.
Thanks!

Did someone present me with new data here?
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Old 06-07-17, 11:53 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
Why do you ask?
well as intensity goes up so does glycogen dependance for both keto and carb based athletes, and the slope is steeper for keto based athletes at threshold
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Old 06-07-17, 11:54 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by bscarpenter
I've been back to cycling for about 4 months. My goals are to 1) lose weight 2) improve my cardio health 3) work my way up to a 50 mile ride for my 50th birthday 6mo from now.

I've been riding three evenings per week with one longer ride on the weekend trying to improve my stamina and speed. I live in the sub-tropical climate of South Florida. Right now, my weekday evening rides are a 10mi loop and I've worked up to a 25mi weekend ride down the beach. This Saturday, I did my 25mi ride and averaged 10.5mph including traffic lights and 2 draw bridges. It was overcast and rained most of the time so heat wasn't really an issue. I drank 2.5 bottles of water on the ride.

I ate oatmeal before I left on the 25mi ride. When I got home, I stretched and showered and felt so low energy that I might fall down. I had a banana and went to get breakfast with my family. I ate an egg white omelette, two pieces of toast and a fruit cup and some juice. I still felt like crap. I had plenty of water.

I started to think electrolytes may have been the issue. What are your suggestions for not bonking on these longer rides?

This is valuable info but we need more info:


1) Did you drink alcohol the day/night before, if yes, how much?
2) How old are you?
3) Are you overweight, if so by how much?
4) Is your work stressful did you feel STRESSED the day/week before this event?
5) Do you have high blood pressure or are you diabetic?
6) Are you depressed?
7) How long have you been "dieting"?
8) How much sugar do you actually consume and that includes juices?




I agree with the others here who say one solution does not fit all. I know some people swear by high sugar drinks like Gatorade, or high carb drinks or food bars loaded with sodium and sugar, etc. I cannot do any of those things! They make me feel like crap. I cannot do high sodium or high sugar. I know me. I have tried and it does not work and I know this goes against what a lot of people believe.


REAL Fruit works for me and not fruit cups in sugary syrup. and NOT juice which in almost all cases is high sugared FLAVORED WATER!


I think in general there is an OVERCOMPENSATION with this exercise and what you need. I personally think, in general people, the trend is to eat way too much and drink way too much and people peddle around and think they have to ingest themselves up with a lot of food and water even when they are only moderately exercising, but they treat it like--- 'OMG if I don't keep constant hydrating and pumping sugars in my I will surely DIE!!! Ahhhhhhhh! DIE DIE DIE!'


I am fine with NO sugar diluted green or black TEA and high protein diet with real vegetables, a lot of raw vegetables and herbs, and real fruit and cut back on JUICES and processed food and drinks of all types.


I have not bonked since doing this. But I have bonked when I listened to others who insisted I had to do bars, sugar and fill up on all this processes crap that has actually has sugar.


Some people cannot do the sugar thing. I know others may say --- 'OH your body doesn't know the difference they are all the same to your body'. Well, my body has proven to me there is a difference and I will not follow this advice for ME anymore because I have experimented enough and I know what doe sand does NOT work for me.
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Old 06-07-17, 11:54 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by memebag
Thanks!

Did someone present me with new data here?
it was in the link to the peer reviewed paper with over 1000 citations that you didn't click on because you're not a doctor, so apparently there is no way to interpret
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Old 06-07-17, 11:59 AM
  #82  
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I know many people who literally walk around life with feed bags and they are constantly hydrating and worrying about hydrating and eating.


Most of them feel like crap and they are overweight and yet they've convinced themselves they must keep this regime they will die or get sick.


They are eating drinking way too much!
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Old 06-07-17, 11:59 AM
  #83  
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I'm no doctor and I'm not take sides other than to say (anecdotal) that I regularly do morning rides - without eating breakfast first - of 2-3 hours before a food stop. I've never bonked on one, regardless of whether I'm at my spring training level or my mid-summer level.
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Old 06-07-17, 12:00 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
well as intensity goes up so does glycogen dependance for both keto and carb based athletes, and the slope is steeper for keto based athletes at threshold
z4 3:48 2%
z3 9:02 5%
z2 40:16 23%
z1 1:53:37 66%
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Old 06-07-17, 12:02 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
z4 3:48 2%
z3 9:02 5%
z2 40:16 23%
z1 1:53:37 66%
There you go, 98% of the effort was in the fat burning zones, with 93% in the "I can do this all day" zone.
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Old 06-07-17, 12:03 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
I'm no doctor and I'm not take sides other than to say (anecdotal) that I regularly do morning rides - without eating breakfast first - of 2-3 hours before a food stop. I've never bonked on one, regardless of whether I'm at my spring training level or my mid-summer level.
I'm with you, Blazing, on this.... I think there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much worrying about food and sugar intake and it is making people feel like ****t.
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Old 06-07-17, 12:04 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
it was in the link to the peer reviewed paper with over 1000 citations that you didn't click on because you're not a doctor, so apparently there is no way to interpret
Did you read the link? The abstract (from 1986) says:

Fatigue during the placebo trial occurred after 3.02 +/- 0.19 h of exercise and was preceded by a decline (P less than 0.01) in plasma glucose to 2.5 +/- 0.5 mM and by a decline in the respiratory exchange ratio (i.e., R; from 0.85 to 0.80; P less than 0.05). Glycogen within the vastus lateralis muscle declined at an average rate of 51.5 +/- 5.4 mmol glucosyl units (GU) X kg-1 X h-1 during the first 2 h of exercise and at a slower rate (P less than 0.01) of 23.0 +/- 14.3 mmol GU X kg-1 X h-1 during the third and final hour. When fed carbohydrate, which maintained plasma glucose concentration (4.2Ė5.2 mM), the subjects exercised for an additional hour before fatiguing (4.02 +/- 0.33 h; P less than 0.01) and maintained their initial R (i.e., 0.86) and rate of carbohydrate oxidation throughout exercise.
So the athletes they studied could go 3 hours before fatigue without sugar water, or 4 hours with sugar water.

And from this you deduce that sugar water doesn't help? Or that the 90 minute glycogen supply number is wrong as an average?
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Old 06-07-17, 12:14 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
There you go, 98% of the effort was in the fat burning zones, with 93% in the "I can do this all day" zone.
Sweet, I nailed it then. I want to burn fat, not sugar.
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Old 06-07-17, 12:17 PM
  #89  
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Here's the whole thing. I guess I spend some time in the uppers:

Z7 1:33 0%
Z6 0:33 0%
Z5 1:31 0%
Z4 3:48 2%
Z3 9:02 5%
Z2 40:16 23%
Z1 1:53:37 66%
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Old 06-07-17, 12:28 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by memebag
Did you read the link? The abstract (from 1986) says:



So the athletes they studied could go 3 hours before fatigue without sugar water, or 4 hours with sugar water.

And from this you deduce that sugar water doesn't help? Or that the 90 minute glycogen supply number is wrong as an average?
Did you read more than the abstract? Sugar water does not help below 3 hours, if your ride is longer then you should account for this. If by wrong you mean off by more than 50%, as you can clearly see from the actual paper(Fig 5), there is still glycogen consumption at 3 hours, meaning there was still glycogen stores for 1.5 hours longer(2x) than the 90 min threshold that you claim in which ALL glycogen is consumed. Muscle glycogen based on biopsies at 3 hours was not significantly different at 3h either(Fig 1C)
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Old 06-07-17, 12:31 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
Sweet, I nailed it then. I want to burn fat, not sugar.
If you are truely keto adapted and well trained you can be spending more time in Z3/Z4
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Old 06-07-17, 12:39 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
If you are truely keto adapted and well trained you can be spending more time in Z3/Z4
I don't do it for performance, just for health and weight loss.

So no desire to go faster, even if I theoretically could.

This is about as hard as I ride anymore and its rarely this tough:

Z7 0:08 0%
Z6 0:11 0%
Z5 0:19 0%
Z4 1:18 2%
Z3 5:55 9%
Z2 29:48 49%
Z1 22:50 37%

That was a 19.5 mph average ride.
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Old 06-07-17, 12:50 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Did you read more than the abstract? Sugar water does not help below 3 hours ...
It did help, though. They were able to go an hour longer before fatique.


Originally Posted by redlude97
... if your ride is longer then you should account for this. If by wrong you mean off by more than 50%, as you can clearly see from the actual paper(Fig 5), there is still glycogen consumption at 3 hours, meaning there was still glycogen stores for 1.5 hours longer(2x) than the 90 min threshold that you claim in which ALL glycogen is consumed. Muscle glycogen based on biopsies at 3 hours was not significantly different at 3h either(Fig 1C)
For those athletes, in that study. They say they are highly trained endurance athletes. I don't think the OP is.

Why so much energy around this issue?
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Old 06-07-17, 12:58 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by memebag
It did help, though. They were able to go an hour longer before fatique.




For those athletes, in that study. They say they are highly trained endurance athletes. I don't think the OP is.

Why so much energy around this issue?
It did not help though for under 3 hours in terms of muscle glycogen consumption. If you stop after 3 hours your performance was exactly the same. Just like if we used your assumption of 90 mins, carbs used would make no difference in the time period before your theoretical exhaustion at 70% V02max because muscle glycogen consumption rate is the same between the groups. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You are just moving the goalposts

They are highly trained in that they can already ride 3 hours, which is why they use % v02max which varies with each individual and operating under strenuous exercise as opposed to endurance which many would set at closer to 60% v02 max.
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Old 06-07-17, 01:00 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2
I don't do it for performance, just for health and weight loss.

So no desire to go faster, even if I theoretically could.

This is about as hard as I ride anymore and its rarely this tough:

Z7 0:08 0%
Z6 0:11 0%
Z5 0:19 0%
Z4 1:18 2%
Z3 5:55 9%
Z2 29:48 49%
Z1 22:50 37%

That was a 19.5 mph average ride.
The thing is though if you are operating at Z1-Z3 for 90+% of the ride you are burning mostly fat already anyways regardless of being keto adapted or not, while it has worked for you, it doesn't prove your point.
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Old 06-07-17, 01:11 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
It did not help though for under 3 hours in terms of muscle glycogen consumption. If you stop after 3 hours your performance was exactly the same. Just like if we used your assumption of 90 mins, carbs used would make no difference in the time period before your theoretical exhaustion at 70% V02max because muscle glycogen consumption rate is the same between the groups. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You are just moving the goalposts

They are highly trained in that they can already ride 3 hours, which is why they use % v02max which varies with each individual and operating under strenuous exercise as opposed to endurance which many would set at closer to 60% v02 max.
First, the 90 minute figure is provided by many sources. It isn't my "assumption". I've seen it given as an average for experienced cyclists.

Second, the flavored water group was fatigued after 3 hours. The sugar water group was not. From where I sit, the sugar water helped.

Third, again, why so much energy around this issue? It seems to upset you when people say glycogen is exhausted after 90 minutes of moderate exercise. How come?
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Old 06-07-17, 01:16 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by memebag
Search harder. A healthy person can become hypoglycemic with as little as one hour of moderate exercise.

Exercise-Induced Non-Diabetic Hypoglycemia | LIVESTRONG.COM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11353874

Everything You Need to Know About Glycogen | Bicycling
Did you read those articles? I'll quote the relevant point from the Livestrong article (which I would not trust much, as I wouldn't the Bicycling article either)

Exercise does decrease your blood sugar levels, but regular hypoglycemic episodes after exercise are not common in otherwise healthy people, according to NetDoctor. Speak with your doctor if you frequently experience these episodes. If you are not diabetic, the causes of hypoglycema include too much insulin in your blood, problems with your adrenal or pituitary glands, malnutrition or liver problems.
There was also this nugget of hilarity, which is of course absolute and total bull if applied to healthy people.

According to the University of Maryland Medical Center, your brain relies on glucose for fuel, so without sufficient amounts, you can experience dizziness, sweating, blurred vision, headache, loss of coordination, anxiety, irritability and heart palpitations. If you donít get more sugar into your system, it can lead to seizures, coma, permanent brain damage and even death.
The above quote applies to insulin dependent diabetics who can't turn off their insulin in time, but if a healthy person would need a snack every time glycogen stores are depleted,
A) a ketogenic diet would not be possible
B) fasting more than a day or two would be fatal and
C) the human race would have gone extinct the second they faced their first winter.

As for the study you linked, I'd like to read the actual study and not just read the abstract which doesn't in fact tell us much. I'd need actual numbers on what common means etc.

The Bicycling article actually confirmed my previous point. We're talking about glycogen depletion, not hypoglycemia. I am willing to admit that glycogen depletion can cause mild hypoglycemic episodes in some individuals and the symptoms can be similiar. However if you do get hypoglycemia as a healthy person, you won't stay that way for long as the body does have systems in place to maintain blood glucose levels.
But the whole hypoglycemia thing is largely irrelevant since it's not dangerous for a healthy person and it won't last. And it'll likely be very mild in terms hypoglycemias.
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Old 06-07-17, 01:18 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by memebag
First, the 90 minute figure is provided by many sources. It isn't my "assumption". I've seen it given as an average for experienced cyclists.

Second, the flavored water group was fatigued after 3 hours. The sugar water group was not. From where I sit, the sugar water helped.

Third, again, why so much energy around this issue? It seems to upset you when people say glycogen is exhausted after 90 minutes of moderate exercise. How come?
If you can store 2000 calories worth of glycogen when fully tanked up, you'd have to be going at a pretty good clip to use that up in 90 minutes. That'd be like 1300 calories per hour, which for me would be 300% FTP pace
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Old 06-07-17, 01:24 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
Did you read those articles? I'll quote the relevant point from the Livestrong article (which I would not trust much, as I wouldn't the Bicycling article either)
They also say:

Exercise, especially strenuous exercise, can deplete glycogen stores and cause you to experience symptoms of hypoglycemia.
and

An unfit person consuming 45 percent of her calories from carbohydrates, stores 100 grams of glycogen in her liver. At a moderate exercise pace, you burn 1 gram of glucose per minute and would theoretically completely diminish your glycogen stores after 1 hour and 45 minutes of exercise.
You said:

I tried searching info about this and nowhere I could find was there a suggestion that a healthy person can achieve hypoglycemia.
I linked these articles because they say a healthy person can achieve hypoglycemia.

I seem to have run into people with Strong Beliefs. Probably nothing I can say to influence those beliefs.

Who knew sugar water was so important?
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Old 06-07-17, 01:32 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
The thing is though if you are operating at Z1-Z3 for 90+% of the ride you are burning mostly fat already anyways regardless of being keto adapted or not, while it has worked for you, it doesn't prove your point.
What was my point?
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