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Old 06-12-17, 10:57 AM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
I would not want to depend on French toast and sugary syrup as a meal before any long distance exercise (running, hiking, cyclng) for the reasons I posted. There are plenty of other options. Instead of posting another source you would just dismiss, you might consider the diets of racing cyclists. If you see French toast and syrup as a staple then I will concede I am wrong. I think you are going to find they eat complex carbs from fruits and vegetables.
I don't even LIKE French Toast...
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Old 06-12-17, 11:21 AM
  #177  
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Electrolytes ARE the issue. Get some supplements and use them. bk
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Old 06-12-17, 12:03 PM
  #178  
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Old 06-12-17, 12:57 PM
  #179  
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It's what plants crave!
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Old 06-12-17, 02:05 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Zoroman View Post
The following make sNO SENSE to me whatso ever---


“One thing all riders avoid is eating heavy food,” says Judith Haudum, sports nutritionist to the BMC Racing team.

“They have to resist the enticing pastries from the hotel breakfast bar because this type of food isn’t fully digested in time for the start, making riders’ stomachs feel uncomfortably heavy.”


Pastries are light and are almost all sugar and simply carbs!! Everyone knows this. How are they cuddenly complex and heavy foods???


This is crazy-ness.
i don't know what pastries you are eating, but my favorites are at least half butter or cream or chocolate
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Old 06-12-17, 02:18 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
i don't know what pastries you are eating, but my favorites are at least half butter or cream or chocolate

Well, I guess we don't know what each other considers a pastry.


Also I clearly want to say that all the posts are about BREAKFAST for someone racing or riding and this breakfast that takes places HOURS before one actually rides. NO ONE says eat breakfast and hop on your bike. That said any "legal" pastry which is something that digests quickly would NOT be heavy in your stomach 3 hours later.


I also include this definition to help define "pastry":


Pastry is a dough of flour, water and shortening that may be savoury or sweetened. Sweetened pastries are often described as bakers' confectionery. The word "pastries" suggests many kinds of baked products made from ingredients such as flour, sugar, milk, butter, shortening, baking powder, and eggs. Small tarts and other sweet baked products are called pastries. The French word pâtisserie is also used in English (with or without the accent) for the same foods. Common pastry dishes include pies, tarts, etc [1][2]
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Old 06-12-17, 03:29 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by rgconner View Post
I don't even LIKE French Toast...




I love it the way I prepare it, but just not for fuel for a four hour run, hike, or cycling because I understand the glycemic index and how different types of carbs are metabolized. That said, I often carry messy ripe banana for fuel during the activity. And, one shouldn't just think carbs. I eat nuts, fruits, beans, raw vegetables, pasta, and such as a general rule. If you don't eat right you aren't going to do well in any activity.
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Old 06-12-17, 05:40 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
I love it the way I prepare it, but just not for fuel for a four hour run, hike, or cycling because I understand the glycemic index and how different types of carbs are metabolized. That said, I often carry messy ripe banana for fuel during the activity. And, one shouldn't just think carbs. I eat nuts, fruits, beans, raw vegetables, pasta, and such as a general rule. If you don't eat right you aren't going to do well in any activity.
I make very good French Toast, when I make a brunch, it gets requested. I make it from own bread and eggs from a friend...

but I don't like the taste.

My normal morning ride fuelup is fruit/dried fruit, nuts, MCT (medium chain triglyceride) loaded scrambled egg or two, and maybe coffee.

I used the "Eat Fat, Get Thin" diet which is a modified "paleo". I have more power and energy riding then I did when I was in my 20's and 30s.

But... I do miss my bread something terrible.

From my own sourdough starter:

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Old 06-12-17, 10:51 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by Zoroman View Post
Also I clearly want to say that all the posts are about BREAKFAST for someone racing or riding and this breakfast that takes places HOURS before one actually rides. NO ONE says eat breakfast and hop on your bike.
The article says they have pre-race snacks after breakfast while they are transported from the hotel. More easily digested carbs.

And I have breakfast right before I ride. Oatmeal and coffee. Sometimes kolaches.
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Old 06-13-17, 03:00 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
I love it the way I prepare it, but just not for fuel for a four hour run, hike, or cycling because I understand the glycemic index and how different types of carbs are metabolized. That said, I often carry messy ripe banana for fuel during the activity. And, one shouldn't just think carbs. I eat nuts, fruits, beans, raw vegetables, pasta, and such as a general rule. If you don't eat right you aren't going to do well in any activity.
Well the funny thing about the whole carb metabolizing thing is that the body doesn't care about what type of carbs it gets. They are all converted into glucose and the rate of absorbtion and conversion rules how quickly those carbs are accessible for the body.

If we're talking pre ride preparation where it'll take you an hour of two from actual eating to get on the bike, then the glycemic index may have some relevance. However if we're talking about on the bike fueling, glycemic index requirements invert and it would be most beneficial to get in as fast carbs as you possible can. This has been addressed before but I'll point it out one more time so that it's not left unclear. Blood glucose does not spike during exercise, the insulin reaction is modified to support the needs of the body exerting itself and a lower insulin amount is secreted to prevent glucose routing to wrong tissues. Thus all you eat goes to the muscles.

Eating slow absorbing carbs and fat plus protein which in turn slow carb uptake has no benefit in terms of fueling the body's carbohydrate needs and may even lower performance as blood tasked with transporting oxygen to muscles is diverted to the stomach to deal with food uptake. However eating protein on a ride can help support recovery and eating fat, well I don't know about fat so I'll not comment on that.

So all in all, eating real food is a good idea on training rides because real food tastes better than gels, keeps you feeling full, helps with recovery, is more fun etc etc. but when in a racing situation gels is the way to go as you don't actually need protein or fat during a race effort, only after. This of course assuming we're not talking ultra distance where the body can actually start recovery during the exercise itself.

So while glycemic index does have relevance in terms of what we eat, it needs to be put into context what we are doing at the time of eating.
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Old 06-13-17, 04:17 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
This has been addressed before but I'll point it out one more time so that it's not left unclear. Blood glucose does not spike during exercise, the insulin reaction is modified to support the needs of the body exerting itself and a lower insulin amount is secreted to prevent glucose routing to wrong tissues. Thus all you eat goes to the muscles.

Glucose and insulin spike during exercise. It is normal physiology. This says it better than I could.


A sugar crash or glucose crash is the fatigue after consuming a large quantity of carbohydrates, also known as reactive hypoglycemia. It is variously described as a sense of tiredness, lethargy, irritation, or hangover, although the effects can be less if one has undertaken a lot of physical activity within the next few hours after consumption. The alleged mechanism for the feeling of a crash is correlated with an abnormally rapid rise in blood glucose after eating. This normally leads to insulin secretion (known as an insulin spike), which in turn initiates rapid glucose uptake by tissues either accumulating it as glycogen or utilizing it for energy production. The consequent fall in blood glucose is indicated as the reason for the "sugar crash".[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_crash
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Old 06-13-17, 04:40 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
Glucose and insulin spike during exercise. It is normal physiology. This says it better than I could.
Let's break this down shall we.

A sugar crash or glucose crash is the fatigue after consuming a large quantity of carbohydrates, also known as reactive hypoglycemia. It is variously described as a sense of tiredness, lethargy, irritation, or hangover, although the effects can be less if one has undertaken a lot of physical activity within the next few hours after consumption. The alleged mechanism for the feeling of a crash is correlated with an abnormally rapid rise in blood glucose after eating. This normally leads to insulin secretion (known as an insulin spike), which in turn initiates rapid glucose uptake by tissues either accumulating it as glycogen or utilizing it for energy production. The consequent fall in blood glucose is indicated as the reason for the "sugar crash".[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_crash
You have misunderstood this quote completely. The relevant passage is "...next few hours after consumption." It says nothing about during. I'll just reference the picture and study Gregf83 posted earlier since you apparently haven't studied that at all

Here's the study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479485

and here's the relevant graph in question



If you just look at the graph you might notice that there indeed is a spike. However it's not significant in this context because
A) a blood glucose reading of under 6mmol/l is well within baseline standards and
B) that 'spike' formed before the actual exercise began.



From this graph we can actually see the serum insulin levels, which only went higher before exercise and declined steadily during the test even though the test subjects were given a sports drink at frequent intervals.

This is all really basic stuff and has been known for a fair amount of time. I'll point out again that the human could not have survived as a species if there were insulin spikes and blood glucose crashes during exercise.
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Old 06-13-17, 05:28 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Let's break this down shall we.



You have misunderstood this quote completely. The relevant passage is "...next few hours after consumption." It says nothing about during. I'll just reference the picture and study Gregf83 posted earlier since you apparently haven't studied that at all

Here's the study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479485

and here's the relevant graph in question



If you just look at the graph you might notice that there indeed is a spike. However it's not significant in this context because
A) a blood glucose reading of under 6mmol/l is well within baseline standards and
B) that 'spike' formed before the actual exercise began.



From this graph we can actually see the serum insulin levels, which only went higher before exercise and declined steadily during the test even though the test subjects were given a sports drink at frequent intervals.

This is all really basic stuff and has been known for a fair amount of time. I'll point out again that the human could not have survived as a species if there were insulin spikes and blood glucose crashes during exercise.


I have not missed anything. The study ,you linked, evaluated two type of drinks used DURING exercise while our discussion is whether eating a sugary breakfast BEFORE will continue to provide fuel for a long ride, hike, or run.


The study acknowledges, "However, there is insufficient evidence to determine whether the increased exogenous CHO oxidation improves endurance performance", which you apparently overlooked.


Other problems with attaching the results to us is that the 62 miles times trial was to determine performance, not endurance for a four hour bike ride, hike, or run.


Also, fructose is not metabolized the same as glucose. There is much written about the problems with fructose consumption.


I also think you are confusing the term "spike" as something bad. As the source I stated says, the glucose and insulin physiology is different during exercise, but that does not mean it does not occur.


Eat what you want, but understand why some foods are better for fuel than others. That's all I am suggesting.
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Old 06-13-17, 06:15 AM
  #189  
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Lot's of armchair doctors in this thread.
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Old 06-13-17, 06:42 AM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
Glucose and insulin spike during exercise. It is normal physiology. This says it better than I could.
Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
I have not missed anything. The study ,you linked, evaluated two type of drinks used DURING exercise while our discussion is whether eating a sugary breakfast BEFORE will continue to provide fuel for a long ride, hike, or run.
if this is not indeed a blatant attempt at shifting the goalposts, I'd recommend you post with a little bit more accuracy since I've been under the impression that we two have been discussing solely spiking during exercise. I do hold the opinion that insulin can spike after or before exercise, but not during. I'd hardly be arguing against my own viewpoints now would I?


The study acknowledges, "However, there is insufficient evidence to determine whether the increased exogenous CHO oxidation improves endurance performance", which you apparently overlooked.
How does this have anything to do with anything? Glucose is glucose. Fueling during exercise is not to improve performance but to
A) aid with recovery and
B) prevent the depletion of one's glycogen stores.


Other problems with attaching the results to us is that the 62 miles times trial was to determine performance, not endurance for a four hour bike ride, hike, or run.
Again I don't get what you're getting after. The whole point of me linking those graphs was to show that insulin does not in fact spike during exercise, nor does blood glucose.


Also, fructose is not metabolized the same as glucose. There is much written about the problems with fructose consumption.
I don't really care how fructose is metabolized. It's not relevant for this discussion.


I also think you are confusing the term "spike" as something bad. As the source I stated says, the glucose and insulin physiology is different during exercise, but that does not mean it does not occur.
Except that the graph shows exactly that insulin does not spike during exercise. Didn't you start saying insulin spikes are bad and foods with high glycemic index are also bad. The reason for this being that insulin spikes cause this sawing motion where you have a high BG, insulin crashes that down and you need to munch something sugary to get rid of the renewed hungry feeling of a slightly low BG reading.

Eat what you want, but understand why some foods are better for fuel than others. That's all I am suggesting.
Yes, exactly. However what better means is highly dependant on your current activity. I did mention that for training regular food is best, such as bananas, parmesan crusted potatoes, rice, french toast with maple syrup, honey etc. Anything that has carbs in it usually works. But if you want maximum performance with the fastest possible uptake of fuel (as you would in a racing situation) you'd use gels and fast carbs.
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Old 06-13-17, 06:43 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Lot's of armchair doctors in this thread.
This actually isn't related to medical doctoring at all. What we're talking about is sports science and molecular biology which is pretty far from your ordinary doctor.
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Old 06-13-17, 07:17 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
The article says they have pre-race snacks after breakfast while they are transported from the hotel. More easily digested carbs.

And I have breakfast right before I ride. Oatmeal and coffee. Sometimes kolaches.
Wow, you're a better man than I.
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Old 06-13-17, 07:43 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Well the funny thing about the whole carb metabolizing thing is that the body doesn't care about what type of carbs it gets. .

.

This is precisely the thinking explaining why we have so much corn syrup and highly refined sugar in the US diet.
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Old 06-13-17, 08:24 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Zoroman View Post
This is precisely the thinking explaining why we have so much corn syrup and highly refined sugar in the US diet.
Aaand let's backpedal a little. It matters what kinds of carbs you eat off the bike. It does not however matter what kind of carbs you eat on the bike other than of course how quickly the body can utilize them.
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Old 06-13-17, 08:31 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Aaand let's backpedal a little. It matters what kinds of carbs you eat off the bike. It does not however matter what kind of carbs you eat on the bike other than of course how quickly the body can utilize them.
And that same argument is used by runners, and rowers, and people who do triathlons, or the occasional mud run, and people who exercise fairly sometimes often, and then it gets used by people who buy a treadmill and use it for a week and people who go on fad exercise programs and people who exercise some but hardly ever, and people who almost never exercise but read a lot of posts about what foods (sugar sugar sugar sugar sugar) you "need" for energy... so pretty soon we can see almost everyone is explaining why they "need" all that sugar because they "need" the "energy"! and why is ois OKAY and the net result is a tremendous amount of refined sugar and corn syrup in the modern diet.
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Old 06-13-17, 08:33 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by Zoroman View Post
And that same argument is used by runners, and rowers, and people who do triathlons, or the occasional mud run, and people who exercise fairly sometimes often, and then it gets used by people who buy a treadmill and use it for a week and people who go on fad exercise programs and people who exercise some but hardly ever, and people who almost never exercise but read a lot of posts about what foods (sugar sugar sugar sugar sugar) you "need" for energy... so pretty soon we can see almost everyone is explaining why they "need" all that sugar because they "need" the "energy"! and why is ois OKAY and the net result is a tremendous amount of refined sugar and corn syrup in the modern diet.
And? We're here to talk about bonking from riding a bike. I don't care about any of that other stuff. Doesn't apply to me.
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Old 06-13-17, 10:05 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
This actually isn't related to medical doctoring at all. What we're talking about is sports science and molecular biology which is pretty far from your ordinary doctor.
Lots of armchair biologists
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Old 06-13-17, 10:23 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Lots of armchair biologists
which beats the hell outta armchair clueless morons, so what's your point?
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Old 06-13-17, 10:35 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by Zoroman View Post
And that same argument is used by runners, and rowers, and people who do triathlons, or the occasional mud run, and people who exercise fairly sometimes often, and then it gets used by people who buy a treadmill and use it for a week and people who go on fad exercise programs and people who exercise some but hardly ever, and people who almost never exercise but read a lot of posts about what foods (sugar sugar sugar sugar sugar) you "need" for energy... so pretty soon we can see almost everyone is explaining why they "need" all that sugar because they "need" the "energy"! and why is ois OKAY and the net result is a tremendous amount of refined sugar and corn syrup in the modern diet.
the same can be said about fad diets that avoid carbs and sugar when CICO is the main driver.
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Old 06-13-17, 11:28 AM
  #200  
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Hi! I'm a clyde and after reading your post I'd like to give a quick "happened to me" and a recommendation. I'm a linebacker build and 25lbs too heave to boot. 44 years old. I've been an avid hiker for over 25 years....mostly NE but CO too. I have stamina and can swing some brutal trails. Love to MTB and hit it pretty hard. Never, ever, not even a sports practice have I bonked. And I've has coached that would run us til we puked in full pads. Last year I was at Kingdom Trails VT and it was a very hot day (talking VT hot not FL hot). I rode hard all day and at hour 5 ended up on a harsh trail that was too much incline and not enough down.

With ZERO warning, I encountered my first ever bonk. I had consumed almost 3 liters water by then as well. I was dizzy real bad. Sat in the woods and just wanted to stop the spinning. After about 20 min I focused on the map and was looking to just start walking the trail until I could ride a bit. Took me about 45 min before I could pedal without diziness and nauseous feeling. It was one hell of a rude awakening. Never even felt like fatigue until much later on.

It hits everyone differently, but I now make sure I have a banana and an apple. I've never been able to eat much or drink a lot of water in a sitting and then put out psychical energy. I don't like to stop, I like to push on. But after this I will now step off for a minute and just regroup and hop back on. Take a picture of something.

Be careful with the hypoglycemic condition....for me there was no warning. Just felt like I had a hard day on the bike. This doesn't sound like it should, but its truth so....crossed a dirt VT road and field ended up at the bike shop with food and a 4 taps. I had 2 pints of IPA beers and sat and relaxed for about an hour. Oh that was a feeling I won't forget.
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