The Real Cost of Di2
07-13-17, 09:35 PM
#26
Yo
Originally Posted by corrado33
First off, thank you for recounting the actual price of Di2. However, I'll have to disagree with your statement here.
Electronic systems, particularly modern ones marketed to consumers, tend to be supported for very short amounts of time. I can guarantee you that a mechanical brifter, when lubed appropriately, can last a lifetime. My Dura Ace brifters from the early 90s are a testament to that.
Yes, electronics CAN last a long time. However, these are very specific electronics in what I would consider "harsher than normal" environments. What happens when the capacitors pop? Capacitors have a very limited lifetime. Rechargeable batteries even less. It's unlikely that future versions of wireless electronic shifting will be backwards compatible. Electronics also don't like vibration... at all.
Will you be able to find a charger for your system in 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? Will you be able to find a supply of batteries in 10 years? Unless it's custom made, I'd give that one an almost definite "no."
While "what ifs" are generally stupid, the difference between an electronic system and a mechanical one is that a mechanical system can be "pieced" together. If you break a brifter, you can replace a single brifter, with ANY other brifter. With the Di2 system, you pretty much HAVE to buy a Di2 brifter, right? Regardless of whether it's still produced or not. Or upgrade your whole system of course.
I think, when considering costs, longevity is DEFINITELY a legitimate concern. Heck, my entire scientific field EXISTS because the products we're working on aren't long lasting enough, making them much more expensive than they would be if they lasted longer.
Electronic systems, particularly modern ones marketed to consumers, tend to be supported for very short amounts of time. I can guarantee you that a mechanical brifter, when lubed appropriately, can last a lifetime. My Dura Ace brifters from the early 90s are a testament to that.
Yes, electronics CAN last a long time. However, these are very specific electronics in what I would consider "harsher than normal" environments. What happens when the capacitors pop? Capacitors have a very limited lifetime. Rechargeable batteries even less. It's unlikely that future versions of wireless electronic shifting will be backwards compatible. Electronics also don't like vibration... at all.
Will you be able to find a charger for your system in 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? Will you be able to find a supply of batteries in 10 years? Unless it's custom made, I'd give that one an almost definite "no."
While "what ifs" are generally stupid, the difference between an electronic system and a mechanical one is that a mechanical system can be "pieced" together. If you break a brifter, you can replace a single brifter, with ANY other brifter. With the Di2 system, you pretty much HAVE to buy a Di2 brifter, right? Regardless of whether it's still produced or not. Or upgrade your whole system of course.
I think, when considering costs, longevity is DEFINITELY a legitimate concern. Heck, my entire scientific field EXISTS because the products we're working on aren't long lasting enough, making them much more expensive than they would be if they lasted longer.
Obsolescence might indeed be a problem but I don't typically own a bike long enough for that to be a problem for me.
07-14-17, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by corrado33
While I would agree with you, I think Di2 is produced in much lower quantities than most motorcycles? Would you disagree with me? I mean, while microshift can produce shifters compatible with shimano systems, that doesn't mean they are clones. I'd be unsure if microshift would be allowed to copy Di2, because the transmission protocol is probably proprietary.
It's already been discontinued.
How are you going to continue using your 10-speed system if one of the components fails?
07-14-17, 01:45 AM
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I have one of the original Durace Di2 systems. I think I bought this bike in 2010 but maybe 2009. It still works like a dream but the last time I had it in for service they told me they were surprised it was still working and that if it fails they wouldn't be able to get replacement parts. Just adding this for information. I also have a 2009 manual Ultegra bike that works great and I enjoy riding. It also shifts great. I'm thinking about getting a 2018 bike and will be getting a manual Ultegra setup. This is only based on the fact that I still enjoy the manual shift but also understand why someone would want the Di2, especially if they have a problem shifting with manual. As of now I don't have any problem with manual shifters so I will put the saved money some where else. I also will note that I have never had my Di2 fail me on a ride. So I say get what ever you like the most and get out and ride.
07-14-17, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
I'd explain it to you...but you're a troll and don't honestly care.
Why don't you go out riding? All you're doing is making yourself look silly at this point. If you'll excuse me I have a constructive use of my time, helping out a rookie in a thread. Why don't you go post in r/TheDonald or 4Chan?
Why don't you go out riding? All you're doing is making yourself look silly at this point. If you'll excuse me I have a constructive use of my time, helping out a rookie in a thread. Why don't you go post in r/TheDonald or 4Chan?
07-14-17, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
seems to me there are serious concerns with this stuff. calling someone a troll for bringing them up is a bit harsh. not that it matters to me since i couldnt afford any of it anyway.
Paid software upgrades don't exist in Di2. This is outright TheDonald-esque made up nonsense, firmware upgrades are free and always have been-and even then they aren't necessary other than the odd feature expansion. Riding in water won't do anything to Di2. Shimano tested Di2 by fully submersing it in water and running it. It is a non issue, on a bicycle properly assembled.
Yet he keeps posting as if he knows a single thing about Di2, and has anything of value to add. Hence. Troll.
07-14-17, 06:49 AM
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Let's stop with personal insults including calling people trolls. Thanks guys.
07-14-17, 07:51 AM
#32
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I just looked at Ribble.
Ultegra Di2 groupset is about $1000. The equivalent Ultegra mechanical groupset is about $600. For the self-builder and self-maintainer, this puts the initial cost of Di2, above and beyond what a mechanical build would cost, at about $400. Add on a few dollars for extras - grommets and such.
There is a frequent poster here at BF who just purchased a high end Di2 equipped Cervelo at $120 over the cost of the equivalent mechanical model.
Parts availability and planned obsolescence aside, these clearly illustrate the misconception that getting into Di2 costs thousands or is extremely expensive. It simply is not.
-Tim-
Ultegra Di2 groupset is about $1000. The equivalent Ultegra mechanical groupset is about $600. For the self-builder and self-maintainer, this puts the initial cost of Di2, above and beyond what a mechanical build would cost, at about $400. Add on a few dollars for extras - grommets and such.
There is a frequent poster here at BF who just purchased a high end Di2 equipped Cervelo at $120 over the cost of the equivalent mechanical model.
Parts availability and planned obsolescence aside, these clearly illustrate the misconception that getting into Di2 costs thousands or is extremely expensive. It simply is not.
-Tim-
07-14-17, 08:38 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by Barabaika
How much will you have to pay to upgrade from Di2 to Di3 in 5 years?
Will you be able to get obsolete Di2 components then?
Will you be able to get obsolete Di2 components then?
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07-14-17, 08:57 AM
#34
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As a mechanic and curmudgeon, I was initially extremely skeptical about Di2. The first bike I built with it, I had to wire internally and at one point, with the wiring poking out at the front and rear and a bunch of wires feeding into a junction box hanging out the BB, I was all, like, "WTF?!? I did not get into bike mechanics to work on bikes with a wiring harness!"
But it was simple enough to assemble, wicked easy to adjust and then... that was it. No follow up adjustments, set and forget.
And then I test rode it. Simply amazing shifting. I would tell people -- don't test ride it if you can't afford it, because you will want it.
Initially, there were issues with parts availability. For instance, a customer brought in a crashed bike which needed a new shifter lever and all attendant electronics and he was SOL as the part was backordered, pretty much indefinitely. After he complained direct to Shimano, they sent him a whole new shifter for the cost of the lever, but still...
But aside from crash damage or very infrequent user error, really no problems with Di2 systems. And very rare for there to be any follow-up tuning work to do on a Di2 build, unlike a bike with mechanical components which usually require one or two follow-up adjustments.
I haven't dealt with any SRAM etap stuff, but no wires? Damn...
I still like and ride mechanical shifting, but if I were to consider a higher end road bike, I could very easily be tempted to go electronic shifting.
But it was simple enough to assemble, wicked easy to adjust and then... that was it. No follow up adjustments, set and forget.
And then I test rode it. Simply amazing shifting. I would tell people -- don't test ride it if you can't afford it, because you will want it.
Initially, there were issues with parts availability. For instance, a customer brought in a crashed bike which needed a new shifter lever and all attendant electronics and he was SOL as the part was backordered, pretty much indefinitely. After he complained direct to Shimano, they sent him a whole new shifter for the cost of the lever, but still...
But aside from crash damage or very infrequent user error, really no problems with Di2 systems. And very rare for there to be any follow-up tuning work to do on a Di2 build, unlike a bike with mechanical components which usually require one or two follow-up adjustments.
I haven't dealt with any SRAM etap stuff, but no wires? Damn...
I still like and ride mechanical shifting, but if I were to consider a higher end road bike, I could very easily be tempted to go electronic shifting.
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07-14-17, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by corrado33
While I would agree with you, I think Di2 is produced in much lower quantities than most motorcycles? Would you disagree with me? I mean, while microshift can produce shifters compatible with shimano systems, that doesn't mean they are clones. I'd be unsure if microshift would be allowed to copy Di2, because the transmission protocol is probably proprietary.
Many of these bikes are still on the road but these components are difficult (if not impossible) to find but people find a way to keep them going. People have found alternative parts that work (with or without other modifications) and one engineer in Australia actually designed an ECU from scratch that he sells on line for a very reasonable price and it has much better performance due to using faster, better IC's than were available back then and is programmable for people that want to tweak for performance.
The Guzzi world is full of such examples. One person made an entire replacement electronic dashboard for a specific model that had problems with the OEM dash that would cause them to fail. They cost big bucks to replace so he figured he'd just make his own.
Most of these people make little or no money on these things due to the very low volumes but they enjoy the challenge and gain a lot of respect among fans of the marque.
Shimano will no doubt support DI2 for a number of years and when they decide not to, if there are enough people (who don't want to upgrade) complaining on forums someone will likely see it as an opportunity and fill the void.
07-14-17, 09:48 AM
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Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
07-14-17, 10:41 AM
#37
Yo
I was just as skeptical as some of you before I got Di2. But let me tell it is better than mechanical. The shifting is so much more precise. And on all the mechanicals I've had to adjust the barrel fittings on nearly every ride. The best thing I've found is the front derailleur. It microshifts to adjust for chain angle, so you can use the entire rear cassette without rubbing the front chainrings. I've never had a set of mechanicals that would not rub the front with extreme chain angles. And you can program which switch on the shifters does what. I always thought the front was backwards, and you can program that. On the newest version you can program synchronous shifting, that automatically adjusts your front and rear for you in certain positions of the cassette so you don't have to pick the proper gears when you go up or down through your gears.
07-14-17, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Can you get obsolete mechanical components? How 'bout 10sp Dura Ace or Ultegra parts...?
GRAN COMPE RD801 | DIA-COMPE
A 10-speed derailleur.
How is a current 10-speed Di2 derailleur called?
07-14-17, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Barabaika
Sure, they are just called differently.
GRAN COMPE RD801 | DIA-COMPE
A 10-speed derailleur.
How is a current 10-speed Di2 derailleur called?
GRAN COMPE RD801 | DIA-COMPE
A 10-speed derailleur.
How is a current 10-speed Di2 derailleur called?
07-14-17, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
6770. There are half a dozen on EBay right now, today.
Those NEW mechanical derailleurs from multiple manufacturers even come with warranty.
07-14-17, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Barabaika
Are they outdated and unsupported?
Those NEW mechanical derailleurs from multiple manufacturers even come with warranty.
Those NEW mechanical derailleurs from multiple manufacturers even come with warranty.
This is pretty much the definition of a mountain out of a molehill.
07-14-17, 11:45 AM
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The only reason I got Di2 was because at the time it was bundled with hydraulic Ultegra disc brakes, which I needed [sic] enough to pay the Di2 premium. However, I have zero regrets. I was skeptical, but it turned out to be far better than I could possibly have imagined.
There is an extremely simple solution for those who don't want it: Don't buy it. (The brakes are no longer bundled.)
There is an extremely simple solution for those who don't want it: Don't buy it. (The brakes are no longer bundled.)
07-14-17, 11:47 AM
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I'd love to get a bike with Di2, but can't justify the cost, even if it is only a few hundred above the mechanical version. I feel the same way about upgrading my 12 year old minivan--love to get a new one, but the old one still works great, and can't justify the cost since I use it so infrequently.
07-14-17, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by making
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
07-14-17, 12:08 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
I was just as skeptical as some of you before I got Di2. But let me tell it is better than mechanical. The shifting is so much more precise. And on all the mechanicals I've had to adjust the barrel fittings on nearly every ride. The best thing I've found is the front derailleur. It microshifts to adjust for chain angle, so you can use the entire rear cassette without rubbing the front chainrings. I've never had a set of mechanicals that would not rub the front with extreme chain angles. And you can program which switch on the shifters does what. I always thought the front was backwards, and you can program that. On the newest version you can program synchronous shifting, that automatically adjusts your front and rear for you in certain positions of the cassette so you don't have to pick the proper gears when you go up or down through your gears.
As to being able to use the whole rear cassette thing, you do know there's wear issues and such with "cross chaining", right? There's reasons it's not good on top of just rubbing the FD....
Not that I'm against the Di2 stuff, wouldn't mind trying it myself. But a well set up mechanical groupset should be trouble free IMHO.
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07-14-17, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Weird, I mean you have to really adjust your mechanical gear nearly every ride? You need better mechanics or something. I log 5000-8000 miles per year on around 20 different mechanical equipped road bikes and hardly ever have to touch anything. Right now out of all my bikes the only on going issue I haven't solved is some ghost shifting on an early 8 speed Campagnolo setup.
People had no such problems with "old" 12-speed setups - even friction shifters worked well.
Here is a mechanic from Performance Bike. https://learn.performancebike.com/bi...10-vs-11-speed
My 11-speed bikes do need to be put into the stand a little more often (about once every two weeks) for some basic rear derailleur adjustments, especially after high mileage weeks, but it’s a quick 2-minute cable tension adjustment, and that’s it.
Last edited by Barabaika; 07-14-17 at 12:34 PM.
07-14-17, 02:03 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Barabaika
This is a pretty derailleur. It appears to be available in short cage only with support for 28 tooth sprocket max. Shame it doesn't come mid or long cage. The carbon is sexy.
I'm starting to think about your point re. parts availability and am going to keep my eye out for an Ultegra 6870 front derailleur on sale or maybe used to keep around as a spare.
I plan on replacing the ULtegra 6870 rear derailleur on my bike with one of the new Ultegra R8050 Shadow derailleurs in a few months and the existing RD6870 will become the spare.
Not worried about levers just yet. Dura Ace 9xxx and Ultegra 8xxx hydraulic Di2 levers will be around for a while.
-Tim-
07-14-17, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Barabaika
You rode your bicycle for a few hours in the rain. Now it doesn't shift. What is your action? Ok, the shifter can't possibly die, then what?
There are guys using electronic shifting on their CX bikes. I don't think it's going to be an issue 99% of the time.
07-14-17, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
The Di2 system is entirely waterproof, that's why a replacement 15" wire cost me $20. Again, the only people I've seen dissing Di2 are those who have never had them. I've not seen 1 post by an owner who didn't like them, nor have I seen 1 post about a failure.
07-14-17, 03:26 PM
#50
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I guess for me the real cost of Di2 is mostly the real cost of Ultegra or Dura Ace. They should make a 105 Di2.
