Rode clipless for the first time
 

Rode clipless for the first time today, after three years and a couple thousand miles on platforms, and I must say I'm underwhelmed from the expectation buildup. Just wanted to share my experience with anyone else considering a switch in the future

The setup was old M525 MTB pedals that came on a bike I recently bought used, SPD 51 cleats, and Giro Rumble shoes that I had been using with platform for their stiff foresole. Clipping in and out turned out to be easy despite warnings about the one-directional unclip, no issues whatsoever, no unintentional spills, no accidental unclippings despite being set fairly loose. It was completely natural almost immediately. It was really nice at higher cadence, one place I did always think they could be an improvement. The firm feeling of shoes connected to pedals was inspiring, especially hitting a hill out of the saddle at speed or when I wanted to pound out an acceleration.

While I know science says they were mostly wrong anyways on more than a minuscule scale, I just didn't feel any of the efficiency claims people bandy about for myself. Even though they were SPD and recessed into the shoe, the clickity clack of the cleat on the ground off bike was dreadful. It did annoy me to have my foot locked more or less into one position and not be able to pick it up and move it slightly every now and then just to change things up.

That said, they're nice pedals, the cleats are already on the shoes, and I was about done using those particular shoes with platforms anyhow (as the cleat hole covers and screws are destroyed), so they'll remain on that particular bike. Any speedy/racey type bike will probably get them in the future, I'm just not rushing out to add them to the rest of my more utilitarian bikes. I can see where I would use them, understand where I wouldn't, and I now have personal experience, so the experiment was overall a success :)

Also, I'm not sure if linking between forums is frowned upon, but my cleat setup was a simple process using a video I found on a prominent color-titled mountain bike forum. After about two miles, I had a tinge of soreness in my right knee, so I stopped and toed my foot out a bit more and moved my whole shoe in a bit closer to the crank, to a position that my foot kept trying to get into, and the issue went away. It is probably worth noting that I fall into the group of people who has never had knee issues on platforms, part of the reason I've never felt the need to move away from them.

I think I read somewhere an opinion that a lot of the difference in feel between platforms and clipless is people going from flexible soles to stiff soles. Since you had been riding with stiff soles, that difference is not there. As far as "feeling" the efficiency gains, "feel" can be deceptive. Measurements and observations of your avg speed and time will show any efficiency gain.

The main thing is to find what works for you...so that other posters can tell you it's wrong. ;)

I took a break from them when I took a break in my ankle, and swore I would never go back, and invested some money into nice platform pedals (Azonic 420s and Black ops) and Five Ten shoes. I wound up going back to them, but had to work hard to find something comfortable. I settled on some Shimano M088 2-bolt SPDs and XTR trail pedals. I find the sticky interface between the platforms and the Five-Tens more restricting than the floating SPDs, and the security when standing up on the pedals really helps. I admit 95% of this is purely psychological, but on the other hand it is real enough.

As indicated in my signature line, I often take pride in making the "wrong" thing work :)

Unfortunately, this bike was killing my Strava PRs, even when running some MKS Quill platform pedals which I absolutely abhor (as they dig into my foot), so I can't really do a fair comparison. Maybe I'll toss them on one of my other bikes for S&Gs some day, my normal after work ride is on trails I don't want to run 23s so that route will never be destroyed by this bike!

That is actually the one point I was blown away by. They did feel amazing standing up and pedaling, just freeing the mind to not think about monitoring what the feet were doing was very refreshing.

Efficiency comes with time and practice as one learns to "Pedal squares."

Only pushing down on the pedals has to be unlearned.

It takes time to build the muscles and coordination needed to also pull the pedals back, up and push them forward. One leg drills can help.


-Tim-

Except that nobody pulls up on the pedal. The best pedalers in the world do not pull up. This is proven in study after study. Pulling up only uses more energy and gives you no more power. It's amazing that it still gets trumpeted here.

Different strokes for different folks, but one ride might be too soon to pass judgement.

Is that as simple as it sounds? Unhook one leg, and pedal the other in a square?

Willing to give it a go tomorrow if the rain holds out.

Many people pull up on their pedals when jamming up a steep hill. I've pulled my slotted cleat shoes out of the pedals on hills doing this, and once I even ripped the sole completely off a clipless shoe doing this.

Take a look at old-school bike shoes, for use with toeclips and slotted cleats. They're very thin, supple glove-type leather, because the toe clip would take the stress when pulling up on the pedal. When clipless pedals first came out, people tried attaching the new clipless cleats to their traditional. thin leather bike shoes and found that the shoe uppers quickly failed because riders do, in fact, pull up on their pedals in certain conditions. And that's why modern bike shoes have gone to reinforced synthetic uppers that better resist forces when pulling up on pedals.

Lets say you are correct for the sake of argument.

One can still push forward and pull back. "Pedaling squares" is still a thing.

The entire point of my post is that it takes a while to learn.


-Tim-

Pretty much. Unclip one side and pedal the other. Switch. Repeat.

Stomp on the bug...
Wipe your feet...
Pull your foot out of the mud...
Kick the dog...

Your cadence will skyrocket right away so a harder gear will be better. You will find the cadence vs gear sweet spot and after a while will be able to spin at high cadence in a hard gear with one leg for good length of time. Another benefit is learning to pedal smoothly - you will see what I mean right away. :)

It is a real workout though. I should do some too.


-Tim-

The major findings of this study are twofold. Firstly, shoe-pedal interface did not influence the pedalling pattern during submax- imal cycling. Secondly, cyclists could change their technique by actively pulling up during the recovery phase. However, doing so impaired their mechanical efficiency.

http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/PowerForce/Mornieux___Stapelfeldt_Artikel_Feedback_Pedalkraefte_2008.pdf

Hmm, maybe I am missing something, but if you are locked into the pedal, whether clipped or clipless, how can you not pull up?? When you bring your foot back up whether intentional or not you are going to be putting force on the pedals. This is something that is done when your are locked to your pedal or not, but when you are not locked in its wasted energy. Correct??:foo:

So why do my slotted cleats often click at around 2:00 on the, ie soon after the top. (Like every revolution, often for miles at a time. (I looked into it. It is my cleat coming down over the pedal rattrap plate and bottoming out. But to come down, it must have gone up. In fact, up more than the pedal. (This only happens when I pull my toestrap just medium tight. If I don't tighten it I lift my cleat right out regularly.)

So there are lots of studies out there (apparently) that say what I have been doing for decades isn't happening.

Once again. theory and research trump experience. Maybe some day I will get it and realize I know nothing, not eve what I know.

Ben

They pull up hard while sprinting. Have a look at the most powerful track sprinters and you'll find they are clipped in as well as strapped in. Same thing applies to sprinting on the road.

Now that makes sense. And we were taught and commonly knew that if you raced, efficiency isn't everything, in fact, not by a long shot. Races are won, not by the rider who burned the fewest calories, but by the ride who could put out the required power at the right time. The rider who could save his big muscles by pedaling circles would be in much better shape to produce the big power 4 hours into the race. The rider who spent 4 hours pushing those big muscles is the rider who cannot answer the bell when the time comes.

Ben

That force doesn't have to be upwards. It's possible for the force applied by the foot to the pedal to be downward through the whole stroke.

It's never done if you're not locked in, because on platforms, anything other than downward force on the pedal would mean that you're lifting your foot off the pedal on the upstroke. That's impossible pedaling form. (Well, I guess it's theoretically possible to ride a bike by literally lifting your foot off the pedal on the upstroke and clapping it down on the downstroke, but that would be kind of terrible... and yeah, would clearly be "wasting energy.")

Note, this doesn't imply that your leg should be doing zero lifting effort on the upstroking foot. Good ankling form often involves "lightening" the foot, resulting in less downward force on the pedal than if your leg was resting passively on the pedal. This can feel good in terms of having a smooth leg motion, and it does give you slightly more power because it prevents the upstroke foot from opposing the crank motion. The hip flexors and whatnot are perfectly good at this kind of gentle return action, it's sort of similar to what they're doing when you're running.

I ride clipless so my feet don't slide off the pedal - especially when sprinting or standing.
I certainly don't pull up while pedaling normally...I'd be guessing that anyone that says they do is a bit misinformed.
That being said, the leg on the upstroke is cancelled out by the sheer existence of the leg on the downstroke (AKA no extra force is needed to cancel it out).

These pedal conversations are entertaining and less informative. It seems to me most are trying to apply racing equipment to all cycling.


Going without clips requires a significant investment in pedals and special shoes, not to mention replacing cleats if you decide to walk around. I just don't see the need unless one is racing. The old technology of clips and street shoes make sense economically and practically. My opinions are based on using both. I went back to clips when I got tired of trying to walk and not damage the cleats.


And no, you don't have to bend over to loosen the straps. I don't know who started that notion.

I ride clipless so I can do the occasional Arty Johnson and fall over clipped in at a light or at the end of a steep climb. Keeps my friends from being bored on long rides.

The only "wrong" way to pedal is to not pedal at all by not riding your bike.

You might want to try a modern pair of pedals - those ones are pretty well exactly 20 years old and may not have much, if any float. Modern pedals can be easier on the knees.

I dunno, I still see quite a few threads about needing to have a proper fit to keep knee pain away, I assume they are using modern pedals. In any case, after a quick tweak, it went away. If I found myself with knee pain, I'd probably just go back to platforms.

The question I have always had is not so much "do you pull up", rather "how much efficiency is actually gained by pulling up". If I have my 215# body pushing down on the downstroke, how much extra am I really getting out of lifting the other foot?

Try taking a road bike with platform pedals to a mass ride, or even just to a popular parking lot for cyclists on a Saturday morning. You will have all sorts of unsolicited advice about how you need to go clipless because you get more power pulling up :)

Excellent points IMHO. While I strongly feel that the most important thing is to just ride, and be safe, it seems to me that what really happens with pulling is pulling back, not up. At the bottom of the pedal stroke, viewed from the side and thus at 6 o'clock, trying to pull straight up would be, I think, counter productive. but pulling back from 9 to 3 o'clock, pulling back seems to me to offer the best efficiency. If indeed that is true, then the right combination of platform shoes, e.g. Five Tens or trail running shoes, and pedals with grip pins, would be the way to go.

Regardless, just enjoy your rides whichever pedal type you prefer.

Best regards

I like clipless pedals (I use SPD-SLs) because they turn the entire shoe into a pedal.

I lift up not to add power but to avoid cancelling the power from the downstroke. Maintaining contact with platforms (I rode those for a couple of years) requires downward pressure from the lifting foot which the other foot has to overcome.