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Bikes versus self-driving cars

Old 07-24-17, 06:02 AM
  #1  
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Bikes versus self-driving cars

Interesting article about cbikes versus self-driving cars ... the way of the future?
Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake : All Tech Considered : NPR
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Old 07-24-17, 06:19 AM
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Self-driving cars are one of the worst ideas I've seen in my lifetime.
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Old 07-24-17, 06:40 AM
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Hmm... expect the unexpected. A piece of glass on the road might not seem like much to a car driver, but looks like instant death to a cyclist.

A lot will depend on the programming of the autonomous cars. One thing that was mentioned in a different thread is that it is easier to push out software updates to all the cars. So make a mistake once, and fix the whole fleet. Hard to do that with drivers.

The other thing is potentially faster reaction times for autonomous cars.

There was a recent thread about a cyclist that ran a red light across 2 lanes of one-way traffic. The car in the first lane stopped short. The car in the second lane didn't. There were several cues that the second driver could have used to sense danger (brake lights on the first car), better looking around, future communication between vehicles, etc. And, of course, a computer should be able to react quicker than a human driver, and perhaps even use better heuristics. Computers are also less likely to be distracted by a cell phone, radio, or another pretty computer.
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Old 07-24-17, 06:44 AM
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I'll say it again:
With or without self-driving cars, vehicle-to-vehicle communications will become required on all vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians under the ruse of public safety. Preying on people's fears and fascinations, the media with political backing will over-publicize horrific vehicular and pedestrian collisions and carnage in order to sway public opinion in favor of vehicle-to-vehicle communications. This will at first be a separate transponder unit, but will quickly be integrated into personal tracking and surveillance units, a.k.a smartphones. This data will then be used measure and collect road-use taxes which will be renamed "infrastructure investment shares". As concerns over accuracy and health come to the fore, the strength of the radio signals will be reduced, necessitating larger, more optimally shaped antennas spurring the return to separate units which eventually develop into mandatory helmets for cyclists, pedestrians and passenger car occupants. Certain, popular lightweight materials for clothing and vehicle construction will also be outlawed due to radio-wave reflection and interference. Meanwhile, as a result of the "collision and carnage" campaign "human error" is percieved as the weak link in the system and the push for self-driving vehicles revives and this time succeeds. Adapting existing e-bike technology and electric shifting is a cake-walk, and thanks to the "Bicycle Stability Act" traditional two-wheeled bicycles are phased out in favor of tricycles and quadra-cycles. True, two-wheeled bicycles will be required to employ either a segway-like balance system, or a large, heavy-mass, spinning gyroscopic stabilization unit. The result will be an expensive, complex, heavy, heavily taxed, autonomous, self-driving personal recreational and mobility unit the average bicyclist will neither recognize, enjoy, nor be able to afford. And contemporary parts or standarizations will no longer be part of that equation.
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Old 07-24-17, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Self-driving cars are one of the worst ideas I've seen in my lifetime.
Topped only by letting every last idiot with a pulse and seventeen DUIs drive those same cars, of course.
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Old 07-24-17, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Self-driving cars are one of the worst ideas I've seen in my lifetime.


We've still got some time before you have to navigate through self driving cars. Not because the tech isn't there, but because people don't seem to understand how horrible humans are at driving.
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Old 07-24-17, 08:29 AM
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When the trains stop crashing into the stations we can begin the talk about self-driving cars.
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Old 07-24-17, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
When the trains stop crashing into the stations we can begin the talk about self-driving cars.

Are you under the impression that human motorist don't simply crash into each other at ridiculous rates?
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Old 07-24-17, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
When the trains stop crashing into the stations we can begin the talk about self-driving cars.
You mean the trains driven by humans?
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Old 07-24-17, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
When the trains stop crashing into the stations we can begin the talk about self-driving cars.
Trains crashing into stations were due to human error.
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Old 07-24-17, 09:38 AM
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Where are the self-driving cars?

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/6-injured-in-scarborough-car-crash-1.4218602

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/motorcyclist-female-life-threatening-rexdale-1.4217916
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Old 07-24-17, 09:44 AM
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I say self driving cars can't

Come too soon. That way all the idiots that want to text, take selfies and drink and drive can. I had my car totaled last December while stoped at a light. The woman plowed into me and the two cars in front of me at 50 mph. She never hit her brakes. Luckily nobody was seriously hurt.
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Old 07-24-17, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Self-driving cars are one of the worst ideas I've seen in my lifetime.
Not being confrontational; just wondering why you think it's a bad idea?

I, for one, can't wait for self driving cars (and, especially, semi-tractor/trailers). I hope every vehicle is self driving soon. I'm not in the industry nor invested in it, I just think that people are terrible drivers...and computers will be much better at it. Sure, there will be incidents..and, I'm confident that every incident will be "COMPUTERS ARE TAKING OVER!!!" headlines, but it's worked pretty well for large commercial aircraft.
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Old 07-24-17, 10:10 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
When the trains stop crashing into the stations we can begin the talk about self-driving cars.

The vast majority of those have human drivers.

Comparing to commercial aircraft might be a better idea.
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Old 07-24-17, 10:13 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
I'll say it again:
With or without self-driving cars, vehicle-to-vehicle communications will become required on all vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians under the ruse of public safety. Preying on people's fears and fascinations, the media with political backing will over-publicize horrific vehicular and pedestrian collisions and carnage in order to sway public opinion in favor of vehicle-to-vehicle communications. This will at first be a separate transponder unit, but will quickly be integrated into personal tracking and surveillance units, a.k.a smartphones. This data will then be used measure and collect road-use taxes which will be renamed "infrastructure investment shares". As concerns over accuracy and health come to the fore, the strength of the radio signals will be reduced, necessitating larger, more optimally shaped antennas spurring the return to separate units which eventually develop into mandatory helmets for cyclists, pedestrians and passenger car occupants. Certain, popular lightweight materials for clothing and vehicle construction will also be outlawed due to radio-wave reflection and interference. Meanwhile, as a result of the "collision and carnage" campaign "human error" is percieved as the weak link in the system and the push for self-driving vehicles revives and this time succeeds. Adapting existing e-bike technology and electric shifting is a cake-walk, and thanks to the "Bicycle Stability Act" traditional two-wheeled bicycles are phased out in favor of tricycles and quadra-cycles. True, two-wheeled bicycles will be required to employ either a segway-like balance system, or a large, heavy-mass, spinning gyroscopic stabilization unit. The result will be an expensive, complex, heavy, heavily taxed, autonomous, self-driving personal recreational and mobility unit the average bicyclist will neither recognize, enjoy, nor be able to afford. And contemporary parts or standarizations will no longer be part of that equation.

I think you've put too much thought into a group that no one really cares about outside of cycling forums. There won't be legislation to overhaul bicycles because when a human driven car and self driven car hit a cyclist the cyclist always loses. It won't be any different than it has always been, other than self driven cars possessing the processing power to make faster decisions resulting in fewer accidents.
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Old 07-24-17, 11:32 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
Not being confrontational; just wondering why you think it's a bad idea?

I, for one, can't wait for self driving cars (and, especially, semi-tractor/trailers). I hope every vehicle is self driving soon. I'm not in the industry nor invested in it, I just think that people are terrible drivers...and computers will be much better at it. Sure, there will be incidents..and, I'm confident that every incident will be "COMPUTERS ARE TAKING OVER!!!" headlines, but it's worked pretty well for large commercial aircraft.
If it were guaranteed to be voluntary I wouldn't care. But, as with the elimination of manual transmissions, the industry tends to go with the new technology. I want to have a choice. I think it's a good thing to continue to engage your mental processes in things like driving.
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Old 07-24-17, 11:52 AM
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I think the promise of SD cars are red herrings.

Instead of investing in infrastructure now to improve safety...lets wait 20 years for SD cars...we don't need those wide bike lanes like ones in Europe...we don't need more mass transit...just pour more money into software companies to do more research and make those teck giants even more richer and continue to buy more gas guzzlers and build bigger freeways.

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Old 07-24-17, 12:12 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
If it were guaranteed to be voluntary I wouldn't care. But, as with the elimination of manual transmissions, the industry tends to go with the new technology. I want to have a choice. I think it's a good thing to continue to engage your mental processes in things like driving.
I think it is a good thing to reduce road fatalities. Removing humans from driving will go a very long way towards that. There are plenty of other ways to engage your mental processes, such as cycling.

In any case, you likely will have a choice, until insurance rates for those who wish to remain in manual control become prohibitive. It will inevitably happen.

And I still have a stick, the myth they are gone is silly. The vehicles they are gone out of are simply because the market can't support them.
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Old 07-24-17, 12:15 PM
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I think that transponders and other communications between the vehicles is a wonderful idea, not just for facilitating the instant decision based on where another vehicle is but could allow a computer to proactively anticipate circumstances far in advance. With the right algorithms, and enough utilization, the benefits could exceed all other advantages of the self-driving vehicles.

Think of Particle Swarm Intelligence algorithms, where each "particle" (car) in the "swarm" (traffic) acts independently yet interacts locally with nearby vehicles to obtain optimal solutions. Our optimal solution maximizes safety, and naturally we also want traffic to flow smoothly, as quickly as possible. The car doesn't know and doesn't need to know what's going on a quarter mile ahead. It just needs to know what the cars near it are doing, and those cars are operating the same way and interacting with cars just ahead, on down the line of traffic ahead of them. At some point way ahead there is an anomaly. Erratic vehicle, obstruction, high speed chase, whatever. Cars near the anomaly react directly to it, cars near those cars react to them and so on all the way back to your car. But instead of only reacting to the brake lights or wiggle or lane change, like most humans do, the right algorithms can optimize the solution for the entire line of traffic. That's the basics of Particle Swarm Optimization, and it does work. Transponders, sending not only location and speed but other information such as a situational analysis, would make that sort of thing possible.
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Old 07-24-17, 12:22 PM
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It may be quite some time before we see self driving motorcycles. Although that was a motorcycle + vehicle crash.

Will people still be allowed to cut the mufflers off of their self driving motorcycles?

What we will likely have for the next 50 years or so is a mix of technologies on the roads. The future "vintage cars" won't be killed off until gasoline is eliminated.
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Old 07-24-17, 12:32 PM
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I see at some point, the govbermint will have a cash for klunker program for the hold outs.
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Old 07-24-17, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by smartyiak View Post
Not being confrontational; just wondering why you think it's a bad idea?

I, for one, can't wait for self driving cars (and, especially, semi-tractor/trailers). I hope every vehicle is self driving soon. I'm not in the industry nor invested in it, I just think that people are terrible drivers...and computers will be much better at it. Sure, there will be incidents..and, I'm confident that every incident will be "COMPUTERS ARE TAKING OVER!!!" headlines, but it's worked pretty well for large commercial aircraft.
We already have self-driving semi-trucks...

Well, not quite, but one person can drive 1000 of them simultaneously.

And we've had the technology longer than we had semi-trucks.

Yes, trains.

It is a little bit of a puzzle why there aren't more tractor trailers loaded on trains. Perhaps a logistics problem that nobody has spent the trouble to resolve. One sees trucks heading many miles down the roads parallel to tracks.
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Old 07-24-17, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
I see at some point, the govbermint will have a cash for klunker program for the hold outs.
I still think it will be insurance. As soon as self-driving cars become prevalent, it will become incredibly expensive to insure human driven ones, just like how it is more expensive to drive cars without airbags and seatbelts (if you live in a state required to provide medical coverage in auto accidents)

Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I think that transponders and other communications between the vehicles is a wonderful idea, not just for facilitating the instant decision based on where another vehicle is but could allow a computer to proactively anticipate circumstances far in advance ....
Traffic management is one big benefit of this. I have three to four major roads I could take home at any given time, I pick the one that supposedly is the shortest. A smart system could not only pick the one that is the quickest for me, it could take into account the entirety of the traffic load, and allocate us all to the routes that make everyone as efficient as possible.

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
It is a little bit of a puzzle why there aren't more tractor trailers loaded on trains. Perhaps a logistics problem that nobody has spent the trouble to resolve. One sees trucks heading many miles down the roads parallel to tracks.
They are quite common, just maybe not recognizable, they tend to be shipping containers that can go from ship to the train onto a skeleton trailer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interm...ight_transport
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Old 07-24-17, 01:30 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by northtexasbiker View Post
Are you under the impression that human motorist don't simply crash into each other at ridiculous rates?
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
You mean the trains driven by humans?
Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Trains crashing into stations were due to human error.
Trains are being equipped with an ever expanding package of electronic safety devices yet they still crash into the stations. I think of trains as kind of a horizontal elevator. Elevators, despite not having an operator anymore, don't crash. I'm thinking the reason trains still have operators is just to have somebody to blame after they crash.

Trains should be relatively easy to do. After we get the trains to work reliably without crashing we can begin the discussion of driverless cars.
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Old 07-24-17, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Trains should be relatively easy to do. After we get the trains to work reliably without crashing we can begin the discussion of driverless cars.
Detroit's driverless, automated People Mover had a flawless safety record for nearly 30 years, until a drunk guy managed to fall between the cars on the platform where sensors didn't notice him.

If we want to bring up other forms of transport, though, commercial aviation is by far the safest mode of transport. It is also the most automated. Computers are FAR safer than humans, even more so when the humans you are talking about are a wide cross section of society, not highly trained and regulated examples.

In any case, you are falling into the fallacy of something must be perfect before it is implemented. It is a poor argument that because a demonstrably better system is not infallible, we should stick with the status quo.
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