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Fake rear derailleur of Shimano?

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Fake rear derailleur of Shimano?

Old 09-08-17, 09:26 AM
  #1  
soilentgreen
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Fake rear derailleur of Shimano?

Hello to all,

The reason I ask it here it's because there is no way to email in the Shimano web, so I hope you can help.
I bought yesterday the DEORE XT SGS RD M786, and I noticed something strange-although I bought it from reliable store. The lower little pulley of the rear derailleur in shimano web and in a few webs and videos are different than mine:


1) bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/mtb1/shifting---braking/rear-derailleur/rd-m780-sgs-s.html



2) jensonusa.com/Shimano-XT-RD-M786-10SPD-Rear-Derailleur


Mine came without Durable sealed bearing pulleys. I attached image of my rear derailleur. There is any way to check if it fake? Someone knows where is the serial number? Or if it a different model of XT?
Thank you.
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Old 09-08-17, 03:23 PM
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Look on the back of the derailleur for the model number.
Looking at images in Google, the Shimano RD-M8000 XT Rear Derailleurs - 11 Speed has jockey wheels like that.
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Old 09-08-17, 03:59 PM
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One thing I've noticed is that Shimano uses the term "Sealed Bearings" a little more loosely than other people might use.

Typically that means to Shimano that there is some type of rubber gasket somewhere in the setup. And the term "bearing" and "bushing" is often used interchangeably.

I believe all the real Shimano jockey wheels use some kind of bushing, with the better ones having steel or ceramic parts, and the cheaper ones being plastic on steel.

In fact, if you found a sealed cartridge bearing, then that would likely indicate the jockey wheel had been replaced.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:07 PM
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One of your links points to a model 786, the other to a 780.
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Old 09-09-17, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by soilentgreen View Post
I noticed something strange-although I bought it from reliable store.
If you mean a bricks and mortar store than I very much doubt it would be fake.
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Old 09-09-17, 05:17 AM
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Thank you for your replays.


Look on the back of the derailleur for the model number. Looking at images in Google, the Shimano RD-M8000 XT Rear Derailleurs - 11 Speed has jockey wheels like that.
Slash5, the model number is RD-M786 VIA. "VIA" mean something? I know about M8000. Thanks.
if you found a sealed cartridge bearing, then that would likely indicate the jockey wheel had been replaced.
Cliffordk, Can you explain in depth how can I check if it replaced. I need "proof" if I going to demand refund. Can you guide me what to picture, so I can upload it, and you and the others can tell me if it replaced? Thanks.
One of your links points to a model 786, the other to a 780.
WizardOfBoz, Yes I didn't notice but it does not change the fact that all of the M786 looks different than mine. Thanks.

If you mean a bricks and mortar store than I very much doubt it would be fake.
coominya, yes that's what I mean, and also the store is one of the biggest business in my country and I spend more money just to avoid such situations and it's so piss me off!


I don't know how I can proof if the wheel is replaced because I can't send email to shimano (I can't understand how big company like Shimano, don't give option to send email: "Due to current volume we are unable to take e-mail requests at this time..." It's so frustrating!) so they can tell me if they changed the wheel of the model, or if the store replaced it.
Any suggestions?


Thank you very much for your help :-)

Last edited by soilentgreen; 09-09-17 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 09-09-17, 07:42 AM
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Is it working? Then dont worry about it- ride your bike
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Old 09-09-17, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by soilentgreen View Post
Slash5, the model number is RD-M786 VIA. "VIA" mean something? I know about M8000.
VIA is Vehicle Inspection Agency (authority maybe?). It is essentially a Japanese version of UL for vehicle parts. Any bike component made in Japan should have the stamp, certifying they meet all applicable standards of design and production.
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Old 09-09-17, 08:10 AM
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I tried to describe the wheels of the rear derailleur:
In the lower wheel, in the back , "POMK" and "TENSION PULLEY" are minted to something look like metal. In the front it look like a piece of plastic that assemble to the metal. Nothing minted in the front.
In the upper wheel, in the back , "POMK" "SHIMANO" and "GUIDE PULLY" are minted to the metal. In the front "SHIMANO" and "SEALED BEARING" are minted to the metal.
What it's mean?
Thanks again.
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Old 09-09-17, 08:19 AM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
One thing I've noticed is that Shimano uses the term "Sealed Bearings" a little more loosely than other people might .....
Actually Shimano is right, and it's most other people who abuse the term "sealed bearing", when they mean cartridge bearing as opposed to classic cup/cone types.

If there's a bearing of any kind, that has some kind of seal, then it's a sealed bearing.
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Old 09-09-17, 01:00 PM
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Actually, the whole premise of this thread is silly. Rear derailleurs are fairly complicated and manufactured to extremely high tolerances. In order to make money with a counterfeit, thousands would have to be sold which would be unlikely. They would also have to work, not an easy thing to accomplish unless they were pretty much as well made as the original. Jockey wheels are pretty much the only part of a derailleur that might be counterfeited, but why? To replace them, the cage has to be disassembled which takes time, there is nothing to be gained by doing this
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Old 09-09-17, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Actually, the whole premise of this thread is silly. Rear derailleurs are fairly complicated and manufactured to extremely high tolerances. In order to make money with a counterfeit, thousands would have to be sold which would be unlikely. They would also have to work, not an easy thing to accomplish unless they were pretty much as well made as the original. Jockey wheels are pretty much the only part of a derailleur that might be counterfeited, but why? To replace them, the cage has to be disassembled which takes time, there is nothing to be gained by doing this
+3/4

I agree that the paranoia about so-called counterfeits is overblown, and there are too many economic and practical barriers to counterfeiting something line a derailleur.

However, there are some gray market products. Some are simply perfectly OK products, but intended for sale overseas and imported quasi-legally. These are fine, but may not be covered under the guaranty issued by the US agency.

There's also another class of products, which I call "back door" products. These may be stolen off the production line, or may be rejects that quality control deemed unfit for sale, then stolen from the recycle bin and sold illegally. Sometimes the issue is simply cosmetic, but other times there may be a mechanical reason.

I post this, not to feed the OP's fears, but as a reminder that folks buying on-line should consider the source, and if one source is far cheaper than the pack, then consider whether there may be a reason.
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Old 09-09-17, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
+3/4

I agree that the paranoia about so-called counterfeits is overblown, and there are too many economic and practical barriers to counterfeiting something line a derailleur.

However, there are some gray market products. Some are simply perfectly OK products, but intended for sale overseas and imported quasi-legally. These are fine, but may not be covered under the guaranty issued by the US agency.

There's also another class of products, which I call "back door" products. These may be stolen off the production line, or may be rejects that quality control deemed unfit for sale, then stolen from the recycle bin and sold illegally. Sometimes the issue is simply cosmetic, but other times there may be a mechanical reason.

I post this, not to feed the OP's fears, but as a reminder that folks buying on-line should consider the source, and if one source is far cheaper than the pack, then consider whether there may be a reason.
However, the OP claims to have bought this product from a reputable bicycle shop. I know all about grey market stuff having worked for a distribution company in the past. Frankly, the OP's concerns are so unlikely that I cannot begin to take them seriously
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Old 09-09-17, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
However, the OP claims to have bought this product from a reputable bicycle shop. I know all about grey market stuff having worked for a distribution company in the past. Frankly, the OP's concerns are so unlikely that I cannot begin to take them seriously
We agree, which is why the last line of my post was "I post this, not to feed the OP's fears, but....."

Should I have written ".... the OP's unwarranted fears....."?
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Old 09-09-17, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Should I have written ".... the OP's unwarranted fears....."?
Probably, considering that the OP was considering going back to the shop for a refund
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Old 09-09-17, 05:14 PM
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Was the derailleur sold over the counter? If so, if should have come in a blue Shimano cardboard box with upteem pages of instructions in every conceivable language. If it was wrapped in bubblewrap, it may be grey market.

Was the derailleur fitted by the shop? If so, take the bike back to the shop and ask.

Some Shimano derailleurs have ceramic bushes in the jockey wheels.
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Old 09-09-17, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
There's also another class of products, which I call "back door" products. These may be stolen off the production line, or may be rejects that quality control deemed unfit for sale, then stolen from the recycle bin and sold illegally. Sometimes the issue is simply cosmetic, but other times there may be a mechanical reason.
In addition to all that, there is also the "unauthorized production" category: a supplier built X number of derailleurs for Shimano, and then built an extra Y for themselves to sell out the back door on production tooling, but with who knows what cuts to material or process.
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Old 09-09-17, 07:02 PM
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OP go to Shimano "tech docs", find your derailleur, and you can get a part number.

I think you are paranoid about a non-issue. How do you handle important high-cost situations?
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Old 09-09-17, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
In addition to all that, there is also the "unauthorized production" category: a supplier built X number of derailleurs for Shimano, and then built an extra Y for themselves to sell out the back door on production tooling, but with who knows what cuts to material or process.
Yes, but as pointed out, this derailleur doesn't have the smell of a counterfeit or back door item. It was bought at a bike shop, and back door products are usually sold at retail via the internet because there's not enough room to discount them through the normal supply chain.

If the OP is very nervous or suspicious he might has the shop who they bought it from, but at some point things can get ridiculous. If you look closely enough at anything, you can find reasons to be unhappy, and will not find any enjoyment in your bike.
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Old 09-09-17, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
+3/4

I agree that the paranoia about so-called counterfeits is overblown, and there are too many economic and practical barriers to counterfeiting something line a derailleur.
People make bootleg routers (internet routers), modules, line cards, transceivers, carbeurators, fuel pumps, injectors, phones, stereo equipment, circuit breakers, dental drills, and so on. Its not just clothes and purses. Some are gray market with some real parts from the same factory, some made from scratch. If it's a well known brand and money can be made, it is at risk of being copied. Some end up at trusted retailers because they were injected at the wholesaler/distributor.

That being said.. I have no idea about Shimano or this der. Not much concrete evidence comes up with fake Shimano derailuers, a bunch of people asking though. Just my opinion like others mentioned, derailuers are not high volume, mainstream, and not really that expensive or artificially priced too high so not really easy to undercut.

Last edited by u235; 09-09-17 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 09-10-17, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by soilentgreen View Post
I tried to describe the wheels of the rear derailleur:
In the lower wheel, in the back , "POMK" and "TENSION PULLEY" are minted to something look like metal. In the front it look like a piece of plastic that assemble to the metal. Nothing minted in the front.
In the upper wheel, in the back , "POMK" "SHIMANO" and "GUIDE PULLY" are minted to the metal. In the front "SHIMANO" and "SEALED BEARING" are minted to the metal.
What it's mean?
Thanks again.
You'll be fine. Is this your first bike? You dose of obsessiveness is unhealthy, ride the bike to clear your mind. I certainly doubt that the collective input of bike forums will convince the retailer that you may be trying to extract a refund will be convinced that the product they sold is counterfeit.
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Old 09-11-17, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by u235 View Post
People make bootleg routers (internet routers), modules, line cards, transceivers, carbeurators, fuel pumps, injectors, phones, stereo equipment, circuit breakers, dental drills, and so on. Its not just clothes and purses. Some are gray market with some real parts from the same factory, some made from scratch. If it's a well known brand and money can be made, it is at risk of being copied. Some end up at trusted retailers because they were injected at the wholesaler/distributor.

That being said.. I have no idea about Shimano or this der. Not much concrete evidence comes up with fake Shimano derailuers, a bunch of people asking though. Just my opinion like others mentioned, derailuers are not high volume, mainstream, and not really that expensive or artificially priced too high so not really easy to undercut.
Notice that most of those things are ELECTRONICS.

Electronics are easily counterfeited. A mechanical object, such as a derailleur, is less easily counterfeited.
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Old 09-11-17, 01:24 PM
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Quite a first post/thread for the OP. Chapeau!
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Old 09-11-17, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
Notice that most of those things are ELECTRONICS.

Electronics are easily counterfeited. A mechanical object, such as a derailleur, is less easily counterfeited.
A derailleur may be the most intricate or complex thing on a bike but big picture, it is not very intricate or complex at all. Fully agree that some things are harder than others but there has been some really good fake mechanical watches for decades. It comes to profit and sales potential and for a random derailleur, it just may not be worth it. You can get questionable Shimano fishing reels.

Last edited by u235; 09-11-17 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 09-11-17, 03:12 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by u235 View Post
You can get questionable Shimano fishing reels.
Are you sure?

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