Stem weight - includes bolts or not?
 

This may be a dumb question, so I apologize in advance.

Trying to get the fit dialed in on my Raleigh Tamland 1, 60cm. The seat is all the way back and it still feels a little cramped. The bike came with a 110mm stem and I would like to get a longer one to try, maybe 130mm.

Not trying to be ridiculous about the weight, but would rather not add any. I weighed my current stem with no bolts installed in it and it was 134g. Was looking at a Ritchey Comp 4 Axis stem and it says 160g. The pics on their site show it with the screws so I would assume the weight is with the screws?

A longer stem has more material, so of course it will be heavier. But you're only looking at 26g difference. Why sweat it?

My concern isn't even the weight of the bolts, though that's what he's asking about. He's pushed his saddle as far back as it goes in order to create more reach to his bars, without apparent regard for what it does to the position of his legs to the pedals. I know that KOPS isn't a hard and fast rule, just more of a starting point, but whether it's a KOPS position or something a little off of that, I'd think he should get the saddle/pedal position dialed in first, then worry about reach using stem/handlebar combo after that.

That being said, if the weight of the bolts is that much of a concern the OP could always buy some titanium bolts and shave a few grams, for whatever that's worth. We're getting pretty deep into weight weenie territory by that time, though.

It might be that some manufacturer's give the weight of the complete part which would include bolts and others give the weight based on just the stem casting alone. But who really knows for certain.

You'll find that even the parts will vary in weight by what some of us consider significant at times. So don't expect what you see to be what you get in terms of weight.

I expect in most cases the weight to be the completely assembled part. That includes bolts.

I'm never sure though when viewing weights at online retailers, if that is the part weight from the manufacturer, or the weight they put in there for the box and everything.

Really, people worry about stuff like this? On a 24# bike?

To answer your question, yes they normally include bolts in the weight. Go to fairwheelbikes.com they have some uber light weight products plus some reasonably priced stems and a TI bolt option as well.

Hey, hey-- this is like 0.0024% of the bike's weight we're talking about. Serious business. :roflmao2:

Stem weights always include bolts. I cannot think of an exception.

Also, longer does not mean heavier. If you’re talking about the same stem (same construction) then yes, longer must be heavier, but when comparing different stems of various quality, construction technique and material, it is not true that longer must be heavier.

You can also source titanium stem bolts to reduce weight. Pro-Bolt is a good American source online, though I most often get Ti bolts from MCTI out of China on eBay.

"For whatever it's worth". The good folks who sell those titanium bolt kits think they are worth a LOT.

Just run it without the bolts, you'll be fine.

Thanks for that reply. I'm not trying to spend hundreds to shave a few grams, I just didn't want to add any weight (if I didn't have to) by spending $40 for a longer stem.

I did look at fairwheelbikes and found a Kalloy Uno Stealth 130mm stem for $35. It weighs 129g with bolts according to their site. My stem with bolts was 155g. I can lose 9 more grams with the titanium bolts for only $25 more :rolleyes: I would post a link, but the site won't let me yet. Would that stem be better than the Ritchey I mentioned in the first post?

There used to be a time in the bike world when “better” meant stiffer, but the tech has advanced to such a point that I don’t really think much about stems outside of weight and looks. So, the Kalloy is better because it’s lighter, I suppose. If it looks better, then it’s all win! But seriously, though, I wouldn’t worry about quality outside of the Price/Style/Weight matrix.

Where would you recommend reading up on ideal saddle position? I see where some people like the KOPS and some don't. I didn't really think about saddle fore/aft being that important, I was just worried about the saddle height.

Do you really need the bolts? Just use without. No issues.

I can make no recommendation, because I'm not an expert by anyone's stretch of the imagination on proper bike fit. I've read quite a few things in various articles on the web, videos on Youtube, etc., and I think that my own fit is pretty good. I've tweaked my own fit quite a bit, just based on what I'd read over the years. I clipped in on my bike, positioned the pedals horizontally, put one hand in my usual riding position on the hoods, while leaning over slightly to support myself against my car, and held a plumb bob I'd made with dental floss with a large steel nut tied to it from the front of my leg just at the top of my lower leg bone, to see where it was with respect to the pedal spindle. I adjusted my saddle until I had a pretty darn close KOPS position, then went out for some test rides. So far that position has been the most comfortable for me, and also seems to be quite efficient in terms of my leg power and pedaling stroke.

I have read articles that say that KOPS isn't a hard and fast rule, and they go into why, etc. In my case, however, when I arrived at as good of a KOPS position as I could achieve in my garage, with the saddle height adjusted until I nearly but didn't quite fully extend the leg with the pedal in the 6 o'clock position, I was the happiest with the saddle positioning, and stopped tweaking it. I predict that if I paid for a professional bike fitting on my bike any tweaks at this point to saddle position would be modest at best.

Even articles I've read that were critical of treating KOPS as the standard in bike fitting conceded that on an otherwise appropriate frame size for a given rider it was likely to be pretty close to the ideal setting. Not personally being a guru on fit, I've chosen to stop messing with that aspect of my fit any further. If I decide, in time, and as my weight loss leads to greater freedom of positioning of my upper body with respect to the handlebars, any issues I identify with fit will be dealt with through stem and stack height changes. So far, however, I'm actually quite comfortable with the fit.

My point, in my original post in this thread, was just that the OP seems to have used his saddle position in an attempt to correct what he thought was insufficient reach, without regard to what it did to the relationship between the saddle and the cranks. That's just bass ackwards according to everything I've read. I could be wrong here, and no doubt if I am someone will chime in to correct me, but I'd say his best fit will be obtained by tweaking the saddle height and fore/aft positioning to get his ideal saddle/crank relationship for the length of his legs and the angles at which they engage the pedals throughout his pedal stroke, and then worry about reach and stack height by adjusting the stem length, stem spacers, choice and orientation of handlebar, etc.

Oh, one more thing. I've experienced my saddle too far back, and I've experienced it too far forward, and I've experienced it at a goldilocks position that was (you guessed it) just right in my own experience. When the saddle is too far back it kind of feels like you're pushing yourself back off the saddle during a hard effort. When the saddle is too far forward it feels like my knee angle during the more powerful parts of the pedal stroke is just too sharp. It's hard to describe how I felt with that, but I felt something, and I didn't like it. My current position, which is as close to KOPS as I got it by myself, feels the most natural, with the most neutral effect on the rest of my body during high efforts, a more natural-feeling leg extension during the most powerful parts of the stroke, etc. I'm sure there's better terminology that the fit gurus could use to describe it.

I've purchased a bunch of bolts and other hardware from Toronto Cycles: Titanium Bolts, Titanium Fastener, Bike Parts Toronto, Bike Bolts
Mainly for corrosion resistance on my folders, but there's a little weight savings too!
Steve

Thanks for the heads-up! Makes me think maybe I should be taking my Dahon more seriously...!

The first parts I replaced were the brake shoe attaching hardware. Then the brake pivot posts, crank-fixing bolts and chainring hardware. No more rust! Titanium has a nice warm feel to it as well.
Steve

Images: Ti brake hardware (can't see posts); SS on left, Ti on right in the other images.

^This is how I would describe saddle fit as well.

Thanks for the tip on this bike website, Man, they have some kool stuff. KB