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Charity and Fund Ride Costs

Old 03-19-18, 03:20 PM
  #26  
Skipjacks
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
@sipjacks -- I don't know specifically about WWP. But would 26 million dollars been raised for wounded vets that year if they hadn't taken out a lot of expensive TV advertising? In the grands scheme, I doubt that lavish trips and dinners for the board members comprised much of the 360 million compared to the cost of earning the 26 million from an overwhelming population that didn't realize there is a need.

Advertising is expensive. Some donors need some pomp as well as some wining and dining to get them to loosen their wallet.
Yes.

Veterans charities are some of the most commonly given to charities in America. The $360 million would have been donated to other charities. Hell even if half of that was donated to other charities that put 90% towards the cause it would have sent $162 million to vets instead of $26.

19:1 spend ratios are not okay for a charity. It's unethical. It's immoral. And unless you're REALLY good with your tax filings and disclosures it's probably illegal.

The executives were blowing that much cash. One whistleblower said it was like being in Brewster's Millions. (I am trying to source that quote but I can't find it. I know I heard a vet who worked for the charity say that when he was being interviewed after exposing the waste and fraud but I can't find the transcript)

They were taking a good deal of that home with them because again, they were paid based on how much they raised. They had huge staffs making really good salaries that weren't needed because the charity wasn't doing much work. It sounds like it's hard to blow through $300 million but you can do it pretty quickly with a large staff and conferences and executives taking a large percentage off the top and giving away a $10 trinket with every $20 donation, etc etc etc

I know some people get upset when they find out that the director of a charity makes half a million bucks a year. I don't have a problem with that in general. If that guy makes $500k and he brings in $20 million that can be used towards the cause, fine. The $500k is money well spent. But there's 'spending money to make money' and then there's just false advertising about what your charity does.

Just don't pay executives a percentage of income. Pay them a percentage of money spent on the cause. Then you'll have people motivated to bring in more money AND spend it the right way.

Last edited by Skipjacks; 03-19-18 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-19-18, 03:37 PM
  #27  
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the 'riding for awareness (name of medical condition X) , should all be on your dime. and if doing it properly
you should be stopping and giving an information seminar in towns you pass through.
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Old 03-19-18, 03:50 PM
  #28  
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@Skipjacks You are still just "supposing" and giving what if's. Do you have the facts about what charities earned and gave that support the same veteran causes that WWP served? Can you show any factual evidence that will suggest the other charities will have gotten their message to enough donors to make up the difference in the money WWP did use for charity?

I still am not going to make a blanket accusation that any charities with high expense ratios are evil. I've not looked into WWP's financials so if you want me to take a side, you have to do more than tug emotion with sensationalism.
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Old 03-19-18, 04:00 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
the 'riding for awareness (name of medical condition X) , should all be on your dime. and if doing it properly
you should be stopping and giving an information seminar in towns you pass through.
Seems like that scenario is doomed to failure.
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Old 03-19-18, 04:15 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree. "The cause" (whatever it might be..vets, starving kids, flu shots for the homeless, etc....) isn't only funded by a single charity in most cases. So it's not like the 5% that the shady charity gives is better than nothing. The 95% that the shady charity wastes might have been donated to another more reputable charity that supports the same cause. So "the cause" could have gotten the 95% with 5% for operating expenses instead of 5%. And the 95% that could have gone to the cause ended up going to fund a charity executive's pockets.

The Wounder Warrior Project example is one example. They were taking in hundreds of millions of dollars a year and were basically only funding a lavish lifestyle for the charity board members. Rank and file employees of the charity were being sent on mandatory "company retreats" to Hawaii and stuff where the parties were BEYOND extravagant and were costing multiple millions of dollars to put on multiple times a year.

All of the lavishness was used to generate more donations by making the charity a household name, which they did very well. But the board members were being paid a percentage of the overall donations. So their focus was on increasing donations, not using the money towards the stated cause.

I think in one year they took in $360 million and spent $26 million on actual charitable deeds.

That's not okay. That's not "$26 million that wouldn't have gone to the veterans otherwise".

That's $360 million might have been donated to any number of reputable veterans' charities who would have put $350 million of it towards the charity and not towards 'operating costs'.

So the shady charity took $360 million from good people who wanted to donate to a cause and used $324 million to have parties. But the same donors were more than happy to donate that same $360 million to the same cause, and had they done so through a different charity the cause would have gotten over $300 million instead of $26 million.
Thanks. I get their mailings. Haven't acted on them yet and now won't.

Ben
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Old 03-19-18, 07:15 PM
  #31  
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Most of the charity rides in my area (Houston) use third party companies like Active.com to handle the registration. I think a lot of the smaller charities do not have the in board know how to do their own registration page. I think this is hwy you see the money side of the ride hidden behind the registration button.

I volunteer for several rides in the area, as well as ride in many of them. Form the volunteer side, there are some hefty expenses in putting on a ride. Bananas and oranges are often donated through grocery stores. Start/Finish venues can cost money. The cost of police officers controlling certain intersections along the route is significant. Some rides will serve lunch after the ride. This can be a hefty cost as well. However in a area like Houston when you can find two rides or more every weekend in the Spring, they will try to set them selves apart.

From the rider side, I like organized rides as they have Rest Stops, SAGs, police support, etc. If they have this and offer a reasonable price, I don't worry to much about there overhead percentage. If they don't do the ride at all, the charity gets nothing.

As a volunteer for several rides, I have come to know the folks putting on many of them, and they are nice people trying to do a good thing.

Jeff
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Old 03-19-18, 07:17 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Thanks. I get their mailings. Haven't acted on them yet and now won't.

Ben
WWP is one of the worst in the nation. Check with the watchdog groups before you donate toANY cause.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:32 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Thanks. I get their mailings. Haven't acted on them yet and now won't.

Ben
To be fair to the Wounded Warrior Project they fired the top 2 executives who were running the charity like their own personal playground. They are under criminal investigation.

The charity has tried to restructure and run itself honestly since....but still...it's hard to trust them. The board that hired the shady executives is still in place from what I understand. So how trustworthy can they be?

And since there are a dozen or more other veterans charities without a history of this junk, just go with one of them.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:41 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
@Skipjacks You are still just "supposing" and giving what if's. Do you have the facts about what charities earned and gave that support the same veteran causes that WWP served? Can you show any factual evidence that will suggest the other charities will have gotten their message to enough donors to make up the difference in the money WWP did use for charity?

I still am not going to make a blanket accusation that any charities with high expense ratios are evil. I've not looked into WWP's financials so if you want me to take a side, you have to do more than tug emotion with sensationalism.
Well I'm not supposing. I know what I'm talking about because it's an issue that's personally near and dear to me.

But you haven't looked into it and don't know anything about it by your own admission.

And you're right and I'm wrong?

Okay. Cool. Have a nice day. No further point for me to continue arguing something you admittedly know nothing about.

Last edited by Skipjacks; 03-20-18 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:50 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by sdmc530 View Post
WWP is one of the worst in the nation. Check with the watchdog groups before you donate toANY cause.
This.

Any 501 c 3 charity has to file annual tax documents. While they usually don't owe any taxes they still have to show what their total income, expenses, and charitable distributions were on the tax filings.

Because they are charitable organizations with tax exempt status those tax filings are public record.

And charity watchdog groups go pull those tax filings every year on charities and summarize what's in them.

It's a great service that should be utilized for any contribution. If everyone did that, then scam charities would dry up as they wouldn't get any money.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:09 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
If I could I would start a charity ride without fees...just donate if you are financial able, however much you can...if you can't, it's okay too, just ride. Those who contribute above a certain amount get VIP treatment at rest stops. Sort of like how Public Television operates.
That is pretty much how Slow Roll in Detroit works. There is a suggested nominal membership fee ($15 or thereabouts), the ability to donate more if you wish with some perks if you buy a premium membership, and no one is turned away because of an inability to pay.

Then again, their mission is to increase cycling awareness in the area, as well as promote different local businesses and areas of the cities each week, so the ride itself is where most of the fundraising is being spent.
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Old 03-20-18, 08:09 AM
  #37  
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I have done a lot of work fundraising for non-profits, including one I helped start.

I can tell you that the 'charities" which are basically set up to fund the management are the bane of actual non-profits. What you want to look at is the percentage which goes to administration, and the salaries of the management.

A lot of "I wanna be CEO" types went to non-profits and charged outrageous fees (as CEOs are wont to do) claiming that they had "special skills and abilities" and would drastically increase revenue. As a rule they drastically increase both revenue and admin costs, so the actual charity gets a little more, but the fat cats at the top get freaking rich.

Basically, non-profits started as a place people who were committed to causes could make a living while working full-time to help. Then they became places where people who wanted big bucks but didn't want to get into the high-pressure competition in the for-profit market, could sell themselves as highly-educated, highly talented, major business forces who could increase RoI.

And as some folks later found out later ... a lot of big charities spend three-quarters or more of what they take in on themselves.

For the same outlay for outreach (ads, flyers, door-to-door, events) a more efficient charity could get twice as much cash to the cause. The cost for TV time, print ads, all that, is a constant. What differs is the amount of money everyone in the office makes.

Yes, sometimes charities might have to throw big celebrity parties to schmooze with the really rich .... but for people who are committed to the cause, not the paycheck, the majority of funds raised--At least the majority--should go to the cause, not the staff.

When you see "charity" CEOs raking in a million or more a year and all the perks---cars, drivers, bonuses, air travel .... you know they are committed to themselves, not the cause.

Screw those guys.

You are better off finding smaller local or regional charities which address specific situations ... your dollars will make a lot more of a difference to provide, say, special needs teachers for a specific school district, or to clean up a specific stream or wetland, or to fund a women's shelter .... of course, those are the ones that tend Not to put on high-cost, low-margin events like bike tours.

If you want to do charity events, I would still advise finding out who takes the money home. No reason not to have fun and giving a little to a charity ... but I don't want to pay the already overpaid board of directors of some "non-profit" for the privilege of riding my own bike on my own time.

As for not being able to find sign-up info. Call and email and ask. if people cannot put it on the site and will not readily respond to your inquiry you have to wonder if they are organized enough to do the job at all.

I know if I made a mistake trying to raise money for an important cause and someone pointed it out, i would be more than happy to tell the person whatever s/he wanted to know and would make whatever changes would make the whole thing work better.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:15 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
But the board members were being paid a percentage of the overall donations. So their focus was on increasing donations, not using the money towards the stated cause.
Zoinks! It's been a long time since I took a law school class on tax-exempt organizations, but I seem to recall that not being legally kosher. In fact, I believe that type of arrangement was one reason the Church of Scientology had its tax-exempt status revoked. Hubbard was paid a percentage of the church's gross income.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:35 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
Well I'm not supposing. I know what I'm talking about because it's an issue that's personally near and dear to me.

But you haven't looked into it and don't know anything about it by your own admission.

And you're right and I'm wrong?

Okay. Cool. Have a nice day. No further point for me to continue arguing something you admittedly know nothing about.
Is Wounded Warrior Project still suing other veterans organizations for using any combination of words that might even be somewhere in the ballpark of the words "wounded" "warrior" and "project"?

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
@Skipjacks You are still just "supposing" and giving what if's. Do you have the facts about what charities earned and gave that support the same veteran causes that WWP served? Can you show any factual evidence that will suggest the other charities will have gotten their message to enough donors to make up the difference in the money WWP did use for charity?

I still am not going to make a blanket accusation that any charities with high expense ratios are evil. I've not looked into WWP's financials so if you want me to take a side, you have to do more than tug emotion with sensationalism.
FFS you've heard of google right https://www.google.com/search?source....0.gN6QVnrUi6k
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Old 03-20-18, 10:04 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Zoinks! It's been a long time since I took a law school class on tax-exempt organizations, but I seem to recall that not being legally kosher. In fact, I believe that type of arrangement was one reason the Church of Scientology had its tax-exempt status revoked. Hubbard was paid a percentage of the church's gross income.
As far as I know Scientology still has a tax exempt status. They didn't get it until 1993 when they basically sued the snot out of the federal government with like 3000 separate filings (or something ridiculous like that I don't recall the exact number) and offered to make all the lawsuits go away if the IRS just granted them the tax exempt status and some dimwitted bureaucrat was like "Fine. You're tax exempt"

But they are a fine example of a 'charity' that does no actual charitable work.

Last edited by Skipjacks; 03-20-18 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:06 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Is Wounded Warrior Project still suing other veterans organizations for using any combination of words that might even be somewhere in the ballpark of the words "wounded" "warrior" and "project"?
I don't know if that's still going on. I'd imagine not since the people who were directing that kind of action have been terminated.

But that's among their many obnoxious actions.

If WWP is trying to go forward as an honest charity I don't know why they don't do a total rebrand. The WWP name is mud and it'll take a decade or more for that to be forgotten. They should just rebrand as something new and start over if they want to do it honest.

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Old 03-20-18, 10:31 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
As far as I know Scientology still has a tax exempt status. They didn't get it until 1993 when they basically sued the snot out of the federal government with like 3000 separate filings (or something ridiculous like that I don't recall the exact number) and offered to make all the lawsuits go away if the IRS just granted them the tax exempt status and some dimwitted bureaucrat was like "Fine. You're tax exempt"

But they are a fine example of a 'charity' that does no actual charitable work.
Back in the 60s they had it but it was revoked. After that, they waged the war you mention and finally got it back. They are a fine example indeed.
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Old 03-20-18, 01:55 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
Well I'm not supposing. I know what I'm talking about because it's an issue that's personally near and dear to me.

But you haven't looked into it and don't know anything about it by your own admission.

And you're right and I'm wrong?

Okay. Cool. Have a nice day. No further point for me to continue arguing something you admittedly know nothing about.
Didn't say you were wrong. My main original point was that you can't just look at the ratio of the organizations operational expenses to actual charity expense. Some causes take more effort to get their message those willing to contribut. And sometimes those willing to contribute need a lavish dinner to make them feel their philanthropy is being appreciated properly.

So my countering of your generalizations and sensationalism was trying to get you to give some actual facts that truly supported your statements.
Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
The Wounder Warrior Project is a prime example of this sort of thing. Sounded like a great cause. But something like 95% of all it's income went towards generating more income, not towards actually doing anything to help anyone. They got hit HARD by the feds over it
Mostly I just see this as an emotional statement designed to cause a knee jerk reaction that high expenses automatically mean the charity is no good. What was the break down of how that 95 percent was spent?

Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
So the shady charity took $360 million from good people who wanted to donate to a cause and used $324 million to have parties. But the same donors were more than happy to donate that same $360 million to the same cause, and had they done so through a different charity the cause would have gotten over $300 million instead of $26 million.
Really, all 324 million for parties... Am I supposed to say "oh my, that's terrible!!"? I'm sorry, I don't believe they spent it all on partying. Again, what's the breakdown of how that money was spent.

Nor can I believe that a significant number of the people who gave 360 million would have ever donated anything to a veteran program because they probably never heard of any until they saw the WWP advertising on TV. I can't name any other charity veteran programs off the top of my head. So that's why I counter with the supposition that veterans would have received 26 million less in donations because no potential donors will have known it was needed.

I admitted I know nothing of the actual facts revolving WWP. It was my hope you had more detailed facts about their finances that would help eliminate conjecture about what they did with the money. Out of 360 million, I'm not going to skewer them over a million or two spent on something that might not be much different than a company Christmas party and some employee perks and employee motivational events. I don't call my insurance agent out on the cruises and trips to Europe he gets for being good at selling lots of insurance. They consider it "incentive", not "lavish".

While I sound like I'm defending WWP, I'm not. I wondered long before the Fed's got involved if something was hoakey. However the news and casual articles I've run across since are lacking any damning evidence the same as your views.
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Old 03-20-18, 02:51 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
the 'riding for awareness (name of medical condition X) , should all be on your dime. and if doing it properly
you should be stopping and giving an information seminar in towns you pass through.
I really don't understand all this need for "awareness" anyway. I mean, do we really need cancer awareness campaigns? Who among us is unaware of cancer? It'd be different if someone were raising awareness for Torsonic Polarity Syndrome or something.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:17 PM
  #45  
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WOW, my original post to make finding entry fees easier to find sure expanded quickly in regards to charity rides, in a good way Supporting the big extravagant rides seems a little less likely not only for the higher costs, but what actual may get to the charity. Maybe I'll support more of the smaller, cheaper, local rides without a lot of the bells and whistles of the big ones. Ones such as local Rotary and Kiwanis clubs or local hospital rides. Maybe more of my donations and entry fees will be used more efficiently. Thanks to all for the eye opening info. Maybe see you on a charity ride soon
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Old 03-21-18, 07:03 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
I really don't understand all this need for "awareness" anyway. I mean, do we really need cancer awareness campaigns? Who among us is unaware of cancer? It'd be different if someone were raising awareness for Torsonic Polarity Syndrome or something.
Exactly.

Who is going to see a charity event and say "What is this cancer you speak of? It sounds bad. I'm glad I'm not aware of it for the first time."

But again that's just legal speak to cover the organizers of an event if they don't put any money towards a cause. They can legally claim the cause was NOT to raise money to deal with the problem, that it was to raise awareness about the existence of the problem.

Anytime I hear 'raise awareness' for an issue everyone has known about since before polio was eradicated I'm out.

Like you said. If you want to raise awareness for some brand new disease no one's ever heard of, I'll listen. But I don't need to be more aware of cancer. I get it. It's bad. Let's stop deciding it's a problem and start fixing it.
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Old 03-21-18, 07:09 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by ad18 View Post
WOW, my original post to make finding entry fees easier to find sure expanded quickly in regards to charity rides, in a good way Supporting the big extravagant rides seems a little less likely not only for the higher costs, but what actual may get to the charity. Maybe I'll support more of the smaller, cheaper, local rides without a lot of the bells and whistles of the big ones. Ones such as local Rotary and Kiwanis clubs or local hospital rides. Maybe more of my donations and entry fees will be used more efficiently. Thanks to all for the eye opening info. Maybe see you on a charity ride soon
The nice thing about groups like the Rotary and Kiwanis and what not is that they tend to be run by older people who do it as a way to stay productive. I've found it's a good mix of retired folks and older business people who want to look more involved in the local community.

The retired people do it to stay busy and productive so they don't have a reason to play games with financial statements. They do it to be useful so they are motivated to help the stated cause.

The older business people want to look good to local clients in the community and network and what not and they have to do actual good service work for the networking and personal PR campaigns to be effective. So they are motivated to do effective work.

And they have simple effective goals. My father in law is a Rotary guy. They recently did a campaign to buy and get donations of books to fill an underfunded school library with. Not too flashy. But they had almost no expenses charged to the Rotary (most expenses were gas money of the members and they just donated their time and gas) and the library ended up with more books than it had shelves for so 3 other schools got the overflow.

Small....not flashy...didn't change the entire world in one fell swoop....but it was an achievable goal with real results that made life a little better for a couple hundred local kids. I like that sort of thing.
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Old 03-21-18, 07:28 AM
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Well said Skipjacks and was exactly what my train of thought moved toward as the thread progressed. Not that the big ones are doing a disfavor to the cause, but it sounds like a lot of money for the intended purpose never gets there. Guess we all need to analyze what is important and how to best utilize our donations.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:06 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
Anytime I hear 'raise awareness' for an issue everyone has known about since before polio was eradicated I'm out.
Well ... part of it is also because it can be a turn-off to some people if you go around saying "I want your money."

"Raising awareness" is a lot more palatable phrase, even though no one is in doubt at all about what anyone is saying.

I have pitched a lot of people and groups, and essentially it is a sales call---"I will sell you a world your kids can live in without breathing masks and hazmat suits for $x donation," or whatever the cause is. But if you word your approach that way, people will turn away.

"Raise funds" sounds greedy to people ... "raise awareness" (which is prima facie absurd---all the "awareness" in the world won't change anything by itself) sounds more beneficent.

And for those peple who think that a "charity" which keep 90 percent of the cash is a "good" charity ... Check out the ASPCA, which runs a huge volume of commercials using well-known stars ... and gets 74 percent of the cash to the animals. https://www.charitynavigator.org/ind...ary&orgid=3286

Somehow ASPCA manages to reach across the nation on TV and in every other media, for 26 percent of what they take in ... but injured vets are harder to help?

Really hard to explain how the ASPCA can run on 26 percent overhead while the WWP needs 90 percent overhead .... doesn't seem that money is so well-spent after all, maybe?

Let me tell you, if you wan to defend given 90 cents of every dollar to some guy purporting to help vets and it makes you feel good, well ... good. But if you care at all about vets, do the research and give the money to people who actually help vets.

By the way, I did a little research and it seems before a management change WWP was inefficient but not 90 percent inefficient. And apparently it has cleaned up its act quite a bit in the past two years.

Still, I suggest that everyone considering donating to a charity look at where the money actually goes.

When a guy raising money for homeless vets flies in a oprivate plane, gets a ride in a limo to a$500-a-night hotel suite, and goes to an A-list party to schmooze … why couldn’t he have flown, coach, rented a car or got picked up by a local worker, and stayed in a Motel 6? Because a lot of people have big egos and shamelessly spend donations on themselves.

I always considered every penny raised to be someone else’s money, not to be squandered on personal pleasures. No need to sleep in my car but any clean safe motel with Wifi is good enough. I can dress up for a party in a Bayview Suites or a Ramada Inn.

The guys making a million or so running a ‘charity” are mostly being charitable to themselves.

Wounded Warrior Project spends 58% of donations on veterans programs

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/u...oyees-say.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wounded...onation-money/
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Old 03-21-18, 08:22 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Well ... part of it is also because it can be a turn-off to some people if you go around saying "I want your money."

"Raising awareness" is a lot more palatable phrase, even though no one is in doubt at all about what anyone is saying.

I have pitched a lot of people and groups, and essentially it is a sales call---"I will sell you a world your kids can live in without breathing masks and hazmat suits for $x donation," or whatever the cause is. But if you word your approach that way, people will turn away.

"Raise funds" sounds greedy to people ... "raise awareness" (which is prima facie absurd---all the "awareness" in the world won't change anything by itself) sounds more beneficent.
Hmm....interesting. I never saw it that way as a 'selling a different future'. I like it!

I do think the 'raise awareness' is abused sometimes though to cover for not making any actual money. And I still don't like it as a marketing tool because it's not descriptive of what you're actually selling. I do see you're point about that being more effective than "Please donate to my cause that's ultra important to me but an afterthought to you".

I like thinking about what you're asking for that way though. I'd still word it differently, but that's the marketer in me. 'Invest in the future' is often used for political issues, but it seems to apply to charities as well.

Thanks for putting it in perspective though. It's a neat way to think about it, even as the donor. "Does this donation buy a better future for the world or not?"

And for those peple who think that a "charity" which keep 90 percent of the cash is a "good" charity ... Check out the ASPCA, which runs a huge volume of commercials using well-known stars ... and gets 74 percent of the cash to the animals. https://www.charitynavigator.org/ind...ary&orgid=3286

Somehow ASPCA manages to reach across the nation on TV and in every other media, for 26 percent of what they take in ... but injured vets are harder to help?

Really hard to explain how the ASPCA can run on 26 percent overhead while the WWP needs 90 percent overhead .... doesn't seem that money is so well-spent after all, maybe?

Let me tell you, if you wan to defend given 90 cents of every dollar to some guy purporting to help vets and it makes you feel good, well ... good. But if you care at all about vets, do the research and give the money to people who actually help vets.
The VFW is similar to the ASPCA. They run like a 10% overhead cost with 90% of funds going somewhere useful. (I haven't pulled those numbers recently so they may be a little off)

They help the same people WWP did but manage to do it 80% more efficiently? That's not an accident.

Last edited by Skipjacks; 03-21-18 at 08:38 AM.
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