Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

New guy. Cheap bike to a Real bike :)

General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

New guy. Cheap bike to a Real bike :)

Old 03-27-18, 06:35 PM
  #26  
manapua_man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,041
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
OP should get whatever bike is better suited for how/where he plans on riding.

That said, there's nothing wrong with disc brakes or rim brakes. I like the hydro discs on my newer road/touring/CX bikes because I've got screwed up hands and ride in the rain/mud a lot. I imagine my carbon rims might last longer too, if I don't destroy em in a crash. And I sure as hell won't be going back to rim brakes on my MTBs. I haven't found maintenance to be an issue. I bleed them maybe once every couple years. Haven't noticed the pads wearing any faster than rim brakes either.

Last edited by manapua_man; 03-27-18 at 06:42 PM.
manapua_man is offline  
Old 03-27-18, 06:55 PM
  #27  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,210

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3563 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
Not necessarily - I normally ride 15-20 mph on the flats depending on how much rest I've gotten. I was doing 17-20 mph between lights for 10 miles then did what was supposed to be a loop route so that I could get in 30 miles. On the way back the wind started blowing so hard that I was reduced to 11 mph in places. So you don't have to be SuperRider to be able to benefit from less aero drag.
Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that disc brakes slowed your average between 4-9MPH. Especially as their use has been experimented with at the upper echelons of racing, and won a stage at TdF last season.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 09:09 AM
  #28  
cyclintom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Leandro
Posts: 2,894

Bikes: Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Basso Loto, Pinarello Stelvio, Redline Cyclocross

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Forgive me for being a bit skeptical that disc brakes slowed your average between 4-9MPH. Especially as their use has been experimented with at the upper echelons of racing, and won a stage at TdF last season.
Come on Jeff - do you really think that is what I said? After saying that I don't use disks on a road bike? I said that a headwind slowed me A LOT. With disks it would be more.

As for your tour comments - that's preposterous. If you and your bike were dropped from an airplane you couldn't reach the speeds that TdF pros do all day long. The only reason that the grand Tours are won by bikes with disks is because they all have them. You've heard of marketing haven't you?

Why should a top line bicycle cost half as much as a Suzuki 250 street racer? Suzuki Cycles - Product Lines - Cycles - Products - GSX250R - 2018 - GSX250R

What would be the difference in price between this Suzuki and a larger one? About $50 production costs and the rest totally from marketing.

So with this sort of profit margin on top line bikes getting people to buy a newer bike pays for a lot of advertising. Why do Tour average speeds go up? Not because of aerodynamic drag. They DO NOT use disk brakes on their TT bikes because they have more drag. The average speed in the Tours go up because each year teams have to ride more and rest less. Between towns where all the spectators are they used to ride like some Saturday morning club fast ride. Each year more and more riders on a team have to ride at the level of a Greg LeMond just to keep up. Each year fewer and fewer teams are ending with half their team members. This is why they are placing TTT's in the early part of the Tours now.

Do you really think that you can use crowd "intelligence" to know things? "Everyone is buying them so they must be better"?
cyclintom is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 09:56 AM
  #29  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,210

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3563 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
Come on Jeff - do you really think that is what I said? After saying that I don't use disks on a road bike? I said that a headwind slowed me A LOT. With disks it would be more.

As for your tour comments - that's preposterous. If you and your bike were dropped from an airplane you couldn't reach the speeds that TdF pros do all day long. The only reason that the grand Tours are won by bikes with disks is because they all have them. You've heard of marketing haven't you?
Umm, no, they didn't win because "everyone" was using them, and I still maintain that almost no one would notice the perceptible difference between disc and rim at the level of riding over 99% of this site does, or even what professionals do outside of a straight up TT. Disc and Rim Brake Aero Drag - Slowtwitch.com

If you're really worried about what amounts to minimal drag, I suggest you do all your riding in a skin suit and aero helmet. You will save far more energy than worrying about the drag of disc brakes.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 10:27 AM
  #30  
cyclintom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Leandro
Posts: 2,894

Bikes: Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Basso Loto, Pinarello Stelvio, Redline Cyclocross

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Umm, no, they didn't win because "everyone" was using them, and I still maintain that almost no one would notice the perceptible difference between disc and rim at the level of riding over 99% of this site does, or even what professionals do outside of a straight up TT. Disc and Rim Brake Aero Drag - Slowtwitch.com

If you're really worried about what amounts to minimal drag, I suggest you do all your riding in a skin suit and aero helmet. You will save far more energy than worrying about the drag of disc brakes.
Did you actually read that article or did you read a line or two and believe you had something in your favor? You seem to have missed things like: "there is not a significant amount of strong data on the subject." "There is a limit to this testing"

And this really great line, "To date this has included the development of integrated rim brakes, and a bike designed around rim brakes is unlikely to perform as well with disc brakes if they are added as an afterthought." Disks cannot be "integrated" whereas rim brakes can be.

"this is not a fully integrated solution for rim brakes as may be seen on some models. However, the two braking setups are similar in their level of integration." So a TT frame that is designed to use disks is "similar in integration" with an afterthought rim brake added in an area where there is no additional drag normally.

I'm a research and development engineer. I can see what they're doing and understand it. This was simply to see how much they might be losing. It would be less on a real TT bike because they use deep section rims and very deep section fork tubes. This helps mediate the drag losses on a TT bike from a disk brake that would not be present in a normal road bike. And yet on their chart they showed that in a turn into the disk there was more drag loss.

How much riding do you do each year? You seem completely unaware that wind speeds strongly effect your riding speed because wind speeds increase drag logarithmically. When I'm riding a Century I certainly am aware that the difference between 20 mph and 12 mph can mean finishing in five hours or over eight hours of riding. I know that one of my usual 60 mile rides would finish in three hours of riding or five. That only a slight increase in drag makes a noticeable difference in dropping down a 10% grade at 42 mph and 35 mph. And no that isn't saying that drag increase comes from disk brakes but wind speed.
cyclintom is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 11:06 AM
  #31  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 11,200

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Kind of funny when people get so focused on rebutting one point in an argument, they forget the rest of the world.

What the rest of the world knows: Discs drag a tiny bit more but except in time trials, no one would know or care.

I follow pro cycling some and I saw sprinters, mostly, winning on disc-equipped bikes last year---aero frames with discs (I want to say Marcel Kittel on a Venge.)

This year I saw more discs on climbing stages—I guess whatever weight penalty there might be is offset by the better braking, particularly on races where some rain or snowmelt can be expected.

Only in time trials are riders so concerned about aero that they wear skin suits, full aero shoe covers, aero helmets, use full-disc rear wheels … and braking isn’t usually a crucial factor in time trials.

But pro riders—who are people who know that other pro riders get Really messed up or killed when they crash—were choosing discs on mountain stages … and not just back-markers.

Maybe they wouldn’t in a Grand Tour, because the issue of neutral service and wheel-swap is a big one but … if you care enough to look it up, you can find the info. I know in Catalunya and whichever race I watched before that, riders were choosing to climb with discs.

And as for better braking … THAT is why they chose discs. Not just secure wet-weather braking … I have seen stuff from pro riders about better control with discs.

And yes … No road bike “needs” discs … or any brakes. Ask fixie riders. But the idea that one guy on some random bike forum can determine for all cyclists everywhere what brakes they “need” is prima facie absurd.

I have been surprised lately at how many disc Synapses show up for local rides. Some of the riders use them for gravel, but not all.

I have discs on my rain/camera bike. Because I am not competing, a hundred grams or one-ten-thousandth of a watt wasted energy is meaningless to me.

I’d say for most cyclists, discs are not only a valid choice, but almost not a choice. Pick the bike, not the brakes, unless you plan to ride in the rain A Lot. (and I have been saying this for a couple years now … a lot of people seem to have figured it out for themselves, also.)

Do discs stop “better”? Probably, in the hands of people who are in the habit of braking near the limit frequently.

I’d imagine pros (even the supposed ‘bad descenders” have a lot more experience slowing their bikes from very high speeds, just enough to get around a corner without losing any.

For the rest of us … probably we’d lock up the rear pretty often, or set it loose, but up front, discs might be a fraction better (dry brakes and pavement.) Probably not a huge difference either way.

For commuters who ride traffic in the rain often … I’d recommend discs.

And yes, Mr. @jefnvk it is possible o survive riding rim brakes on steel rims. I started commuting on that set-up and did a lot of wet miles on very sketchy brakes.

As I am sure you know, you don’t always have as much time as you’d like—sometimes a car will pull out and you will grab the brakes and hope that the rims squeegee dry enough in time ….

Having played that game enough to say it is slightly safer than Russian Roulette, I have opted not to any more.

Hey, some guys go without brakes. Some guys use old drum brakes. Some people don’t maintain their bikes, and the brakes are badly adjusted and stiff, and the shoes are harder than glass.

I don’t recommend any of that to a new cyclist.

If a person has to ask about brakes, I figure that person needs the best brakes possible. That might be upper-line Shimano rim brakes, cheap Tektro rim brakes with better shoes, (Coolstop black-and-orange, for instance) or it could be hydraulic discs.

Depends what the right bike comes with.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 12:04 PM
  #32  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,210

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3563 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
Did you actually read that article or did you read a line or two and believe you had something in your favor?
...
I'm a research and development engineer. I can see what they're doing and understand it. This was simply to see how much they might be losing. It would be less on a real TT bike because they use deep section rims and very deep section fork tubes. This helps mediate the drag losses on a TT bike from a disk brake that would not be present in a normal road bike. And yet on their chart they showed that in a turn into the disk there was more drag loss.
We're not talking about TT bikes or TT races, of which I have already stated is the one situation where a person may notice the drag from disc brakes. We're talking the bikes and riding that the 99% of this forum does. Which, as @Maelochs put it eloquently:
Discs drag a tiny bit more but except in time trials, no one would know or care
And yes I did read it. Did you miss the entire last two paragraphs of conclusions?

While this result is not universal, and does not encompass fully integrated systems of either brake type, it shows that the perceived increase in aerodynamic drag due to disc brakes is false. A bicycle designed around a specific braking system has the potential to better integrate components than seen here and so could reduce drag further. However, each braking solution offers opportunities to optimise different parts of the whole bicycle system. For example, while rim brakes may be integrated into the fork crown, this then dictates dimensions around the fork, head tube and down tube junction. Disc brakes remove the constraints in this area but move them to the fork leg.

The results show that disc brakes do not necessarily result in an increase in drag. This is subject to how the brakes are integrated into the system, however, the blanket statement that disc brakes are slow is not accurate.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-28-18, 04:14 PM
  #33  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 11,200

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I really don't think brakes matter all that much ... first let's make sure the guy gets the right fire extinguisher for his new ride. Does anyone else carry a fire extinguisher?
Maelochs is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.