Kapusta

This is not correct. Some will appreciate, some will not.

And the fact that your premise requires the car to be driven very little (and certainly not at a competition level) makes the comparison somewhat flawed.

If your point is that if you buy a $200k car and a $15k bike and leave them both in a garage for 30 years, then the car will retain a higher percentage of it’s value, I think you may be correct.

On the other hand, if the two were both subjected to frequent competition-level use for even 10 years, I’ll wager the bike will hold it’s value better, and that is not even accounting for maintenance costs of each (which are much higher, even as a percentage of the innitial costs, for the car).

Look I am not trying to justify the price of a $15K bike. And one does not really need to, as they are rare outliers in the cycling industry and in no way an indication of what it actually costs to buy a bike.

cyclist2000

So if you and your competition are basically on the same talent level that the one with advanced machine would normally win the competition. The extra cost may be worth it, if it will win more races and get more sponsors and a bigger paycheck.

AlmostTrick

Finally a voice of reason!


Not sure the model but I'm sure it cost him a lot less than $15,000. Although the owner(s) could likely get more than that for it now.




https://www.oneindia.com/internation...g-2554768.html

fietsbob

India has long produced the old British style roadster , rod brakes, etc.




..

jefnvk

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the cost of an F1 front wing/nose, since that is nothing but CF and a bit of hardware to hold it on a car. Even simpler device than a bike. Such an item costs an average of $300k for a single wing/nose piece.

I've seen two new bikes over $10k in my life, one the Specialized S-Works $15k job I mentioned earlier that just sat at a shop, and the other a model year old Trek that ran about $11k original but was marked down to about $8k at one of the LBS chain's closeout store.

rollagain

Someone beat me to it; it just occurred to me last night that this whole topic has been about "first-world" problems. And certainly there are millions of those bikes in use by people earning their daily living on them. I wonder what they'd say if they saw a telecast of a modern bicycle race. Maybe, "What's all the excitement about? I do that every day, except with a 300 pound load, and dodging trucks and cattle."

Koyote

Perhaps it's pointless to scold other people about their pointlessness?

Metieval

yet here you are... where does pointless begin, and pointless end?

SClaraPokeman

I think I have to disagree because 30 years ago a pretty good (not great) bike was about $1,500 and today a much more technologically advanced bike can be had for about $2,000. That's a lot less money in real terms, esp. considering the quality improvements.

For me, the main costs of cycling isn't the price of the bike, it's the time away from family to ride and the risk of traumatic injury (don't ride unless you are decently insured). Gnashing about extreme high end bike prices seems silly. My Accord was $24K and seems like a fine enough car; I don't price exotic Italian autos and say, "man, cars sure are unaffordable today".

AlmostTrick

Right. I think sometimes people get a little too serious in some of these threads. I'm certain I do it myself sometimes. It's ok to just have some fun with a silly topic like this. At least that's how I like to look at it. I mean com'on. A $15,000 bike for cry'n out loud!!!!


Some poke fun at the idea and others attempt to justify it. It's fun to watch! (and be part of)

Revoltingest

For a bike to hold its value, it would have to have a place in history & in the minds of future well heeled owners. I don't think many bicycles would have that. And the life of carbon frames is indeed questionable. With cars, plastic & rubber parts need regular replacement. That situation wouldn't bode well for a frame.
I'm hoping my titanium Helix will balloon in value though.

rgconner

There is no such baseline car at $10K new.

From KBB, 10 cheapest cars:

•Nissan Versa S Sedan, $12,780
•Chevrolet Spark LS Hatchback, $12,995
•Smart ForTwo Pure Coupe, $13,240
•Ford Fiesta S Sedan, $13,995
•Kia Rio LX Sedan, $14,350
•Ford Fiesta S Hatchback, $14,995
•Chevrolet Sonic Sedan, $14,995
•Toyota Yaris 3-door, $15,165
•Kia Soul, $15,175
•Hyundai Accent GLS Sedan, $15,340


Considering you are off on cars, I am not surprised you are off on bikes.


Motorcycles? Dead on. Even my relatively "lux" with ABS, Traction control, electronic adjustable traction, Tire pressure, heated grips, BMW F700gs cost $11K new and will do 0-60 under 3.

Oh, and gets 50-60 miles to the gallon.

indyfabz

Here I am not discussing the substance of the fabricated topic but rather discussing the point of discussing the fabricated topic and the motives behind fabricating it. So and to your little heart's desire.

OBoile

The flip side to this is that if you were to actually use the bike and car, in 30 years time you would have lost far, far less money with the bike.

McBTC

This was the comparison I had in mind (it apparently wasn't mentioned in the '63 catalog above)-- apparently, more like the Superior, being a 15 speed but, a Sierra in blue with chrome forks.

I think it is a fair comparison because the Paramount was the absolute best the company offered (based on the price), whereas the 15-spd Sierra was on the high end of pricing because it offered the latest technology but still provided a great value... which is what you get with modern hydroformed alloy frames with 105 components.

McBTC

Interestingly, a 15-spd Schwinn Sierra came with a Lycette saddle. The company doesn't exist anymore (I think it was taken over by Brooks years ago). The closest thing to it now would be a B17.

Kapusta

Why only look at the top end? Why not look at the other end of the scale?

The cheapest adult bike I see in that catalog with 26” wheels is listed at $39. That is for a single speed with a coaster brake. That $39 is $312 today. You can get a single speed cruiser with a coaster brake now for a lot less than that.

robertorolfo

Why do you continue to insist on making an argument that I've already told you has nothing to do with the intent of my post? Talking about F1 cars and MotoGP bikes? Really?

And I don't want to hear about CF frame design and aero, becuause bike frames haven't changed significantly in the past 5-10 years, and any claimed significant gains at speeds of 40 or 50mph (being very generous here) are marketing nonsense.

(Also, and this isn't on topic either, Harley's are way overpriced because of their name. The value is not equal to the sum of their parts, so that's a lousy example. Ditto the 1200GS, which is the Hummer of motorcycles and also considerably overpriced (even if it is a pretty good bike in its category). And R1 or Fireblade is just a few thousand over the 15K mark, so get serious).

What we are talking about, and try to stay focused here, is the idea that these bikes are nowhere near the value of the sum of their parts. I listed them previously, but most of them are either completely non-mechanical, or very simple mechanical parts (which, by the way, haven't changed for how many years now?) Yes, there are other products like that out there in the world, but this is the bike forum, and these bikes seem particularly out of proportion to me.

And, again, it's not just the $15K top of the like Trek. I'm not seeing the value (as described above), in the $10K model either. Even the $5K stuff seems like a stretch.


Sorry, my mind was on the European market at that point, where you can pick up things like a Ford KA, Fiat Panda, Renault Twingo... for around $10K us. Either way, even if you are paying $14K for a Ford Fiesta, it's still a car! Internal combustion engine that is more complicated and involves more moving parts than any bicycle ever. Complicated electronics for engine management, emissions... Plus safety stuff like mandatory airbags.

Maybe I should have stuck to motorcycles, and I see you are in agreement there. Your 11K BMW has WAY more going on than even the raciest of race bikes.

I was going to ask where these bikes were made, including the super-top $15K example, but we have been getting sidetracked.

Are you really saying it is China? Because that is just bonkers. And to think, people here are going on about all the meticulous engineering and wind-tunnel work that goes into these frames, and then you are going to have them made in China? My god...

I totally agree with you, and that is what I'm getting at. And yes, there are many other examples out there (you cited a couple of good ones), but this is a bike forum, and that's why I'm talking about bikes in particular.

Maybe I invited some of this on myself by comparing cars and motorcycles, but it just seemed convenient and somewhat apt.

Um, what false premise? How is my opinion that a $15K (or 10, or 5) bicycle is priced way about the value of it's parts and production, even moreso than many other overpriced items, false?

As someone said, this is a forum, and you are more than welcome to ignore this thread and this conversation.

robertorolfo

Sorry, almost missed this one (hard to respond to 10 people at once). This can also be it's own side discussion, because a lot is involved. Motorcycle racing is less machine dependent than car racing, but I think bikes take that even further. At the end of the day, cars and bikes are machines, and the machine alone can give you an advantage by itself. Yes, someone is going to come along and say that putting down X watts on a cheap bike won't have you going as fast as X watts on a better bike, but again we are splitting hairs.

The idea wasn't to try and figure out how much a person needs to spend on a bicycle in order to be competitive in racing, it was about the value of the item itself.

jefnvk

Umm, because those are the analogous situations to the bikes you are talking about. Those $15k bikes are designed to compete at the top levels of competition, just like F1 and MotoGP bikes. Your wanting to compare them to average cars and motorcycles is simply a joke, or shows a serious lack of logic, or simply wanting to troll.

Why do you continue to compare literally the top of the racing bike technology to middling to average cars and motorcycles? Much as you want to insist otherwise, the motorcycle market comes nowhere near to stopping anywhere close to a "reasonable" level.

So, you don't want to hear about the reasons they are expensive. Got it.

So, you want to discount examples that don't fit your narriative. Got it.

Umm, motorcycles haven't materially changed in a few decades. So, why again don't all cost as little as an Enfield? There is hardly much that is mechanically complex on a motorcycle, the basics have been around for a hundred years.

Umm, as one who actually works in the auto industry, I can guarantee you that parts for any number of high end and luxury cars are made in, wait for it, CHINA, including nearly all of your electronics. I'd be shocked if that $80k Ducati didn't contain many parts from good old Shanghai too. All that engineering you say puts the value of the car that high, how can it be with Made in China circuitboards? I mean, this statement alone shows more about your ignorance of manufacturing than anything.

Also, at least the Trek top of the line models are made right in the USA, not that you probably won't discount that as irrelevant too. https://www.cnbc.com/2014/08/01/in-w...-bicycles.html


I don't disagree that a $15k is a pointless expenditure for a bike for me, but I don't race competitively. If I did, it may well be a different story. In short, I get by with a $3k motorcycle and a $5k car, so obviously if you spent any more than that on your stuff, it was a pointless expenditure that I can't understand or agree with.

AlmostTrick

It seems often the assumption here is that a $15,000 (!!!!!!!) bike will outperform a model that costs less. But what if it doesn't? That sure would be funny. ...as long as you weren't the one footing the bill.

McBTC

It's interesting looking at the catalog above that spending $15K on a bike today would be like spending $1,850 in 1963... you could buy a fleet of Deluxe Paramount road racers for that amount.

McBTC

Comparo...

McBTC

I haven't listened to the video yet but the write-up is interesting and some of the comments great...

rgconner

Nonsense. The only 4K Kawi is 65cc off-roader.

That said, 10-11K will get you into a strip down Ninja ZX-6R, or Ninja 1000cc

Better power to weight ratio than just about 4 wheeled anything on the road.


But you won't get fit riding it!