You can just use zero float with the spring retention dialed up on clipless, no?

Yes,you can. But that misses the much bigger point. If I twist my foot, I uncleat. At 200+ RPM 1) no way am I looking down to see if my foot is turned and 2) no way can I tell by feel if my foot is straight. And it I have to take a corner, I tend to rotate my feet unconsciously "into" the turn. Hardly an issue coasting but a huge issue on a fix gear. No toeclips don't prevent un-cleating, I've done it a very high speed. But - very important!- when I do unclip, my foot is still on the pedal. My heart-rate skyrockets but outside that, it's no big deal. The same un-cleat on a clipless pedal would be a deal I would pay for the rest of my liife. (Likely permanent damage to my ankle or Achilles; never mind the crash.)

I spent a few years riding a fix gear with LOOK Delta and black no-float cleats. Scary on a hill near my house! (I rode that bike purposely with clipless to keep from riding hills. It was a frame that had been hit hard by a car. I didn't trust it.)

Ben

Someone who can explain things in physics better than me can explain this. When you are applying opposite forces on your pedals, only the stronger of the forces has an effect. In other words If you are pushing down on your pedals while trying to pull up, only the greater of those forces has an effect.

*This is a very simplified explanation, intended for novices*

Basically, on flats, you essentially are only putting power down as you extend your leading leg from the 2 o'clock to the 6 'oclock position. First one leg, then the other, primarily using the quadriceps. using a positive retention (straps or clipless) you can pull up on your trailing leg utilizing the hamstrings.
You may have heard reference to focusing on 'moving your feet in circles' instead of just pushing down. Switching the load around to different muscle groups will allow you to be smoother, with less perceived effort; something you'll notice the most on long climbs.
I'm a little more like a square, but still working on it.

If you've ever had to try to make a fast start in a really big gear, then you really notice the 'pull up' factor. Watch videos of track starts and you'll see what this looks like.


Lastly, since BF is primarily road-biased and it seems like no one ever talks about it; Clipless on MTB lets you use your feet to pick up the bike and move it around, particularly the back wheel. You can do it on good grippy flats, too, but with clipless, there's no effort or technique needed to keep the pedals attached to your feet, just yank. Bunny-hops become a no-brainer. It's a little intimidating to go in to a technical handling situation with your feet clipped in, but the increased level of control over the bike often will let you ride out of a situation where you otherwise would have had to put a foot down.

This remains in the field of theory that sounds interesting. People like to say it. It's entertaining. But there's no proof it actually works any better than a lucky rabbits foot. Studies on top racers have shown they do not pull the pedal up at least on the flats. Those studies are usually limited to a stationary bike in a lab, so they're limited, but the assertion about "pedalling in circles" has no proof that I know of for it, and some proof against it.

Not saying that's wrong, but people have been winning serious mountain bike races with flats, like Sam Hill:
https://m.vitalmtb.com/videos/member...93/bturman,109

I know in downhill racing the ability to quickly take your foot on and off the pedal lets you put a foot on the ground to handle wonky terrain. That's something you see people do in the race videos on youtube. There are also other theories about how flats let you change your foot position and balance on the bike more, but like the "spinning in circles" idea no one can really prove anything one way or the other.

While it is true that you can't pull up on flats, you can get power through more of the stroke than just between 2 and 6 o'clock. With grippy pedals and soles and good technique, you can power over the top and back across the bottom. I don't know the exact position, but I think it is more like 12 to 7 o'clock.

Two things you seem to be missing. "On the flats" refers to riding on flat terrain. But on hill and in sprints even the most vehement clipless hater will (usually) admit that clipless has utility and the rider is pulling up on the pedals. Most people aren't do a lot of sprints but they are doing hills and it's rather inconvenient to stop on the hills to change out the flat pedals for clipless and then to change back when you hit the flats again. That puts a huge dent in you overall speed.

And you also bring up the other problem with the "studies". They are limited.

True, and True. I'm not making a case for clipless making you measureably faster, My thesis was that postive retention can create less percieved effort. A given rider, on a given bike, on a given hill will only be able to produce essentially the same amount of power every time. If you can put it down smoother, spinning at a slightly higher cadence, than mashing a lower cadence creates lower peak exertions, even though you are most likely using more engergy, since you're activating a lot of smaller muscle groups,more frequently.
You can push 'over the top' and 'pull back' on the bottom of the stroke on flat pedals, too. No argument here. I run flats on a couple of the bikes; you do have to pay a little more effort to keeping your foot down. It's just that when your route throws a 1/2 mile long 10% grade with a false peak in at mile 98.5, you don't have to spend any effort or attention on foot-to-pedal technique, the cleats do it for you.
I'm not a top racer, or even a racer at all, so wringing every last kW or 0.01 second out isn't a goal for me. I just want to make the top of this hill without dying.

You may actually be doing more work, expending more energy, but it doesn't feel like it.

*I also freely admit that if you want to talk data points, then i'm an outlier. My primary roadbike is a classic Softride beam bike. (tube frame, not wing frame) The beam demands a smooth stroke for best performance; Press your weight back in to the saddle, keep your feet light, and spin, and that little bike is an excellent climber, especially on bad pavement. Start mashing on the pedals, and the beam will start to no-go-pogo, oscilating up and down, dissipating energy that could be going in to the cranks by moving your weight up and down.
If you get off your 'form' the bike lets you know.


I'm sure there's lots of serious MTB racers who could dust me on flat pedals. I never claimed to be one.
This is also a case where the MTB experience is way different depending on where and when you do most of your riding. I don't downhill, but i understand the 'dab'. I'm not entirely sure what Enduro is.
I put myself in to the 'old school' of East-Coast woods riders. Short-travel hardtails are my weapon of choice. My focus is on going up, when you're coming down, you've got gravity working for you, but if you're trying to get up some root ladder on the side of a hill, it's all about keeping it moving. Being able to pick up the back wheel to get over an obstacle and then get right back in to the power might mean making it up the climb 'clean' than having to stop and put a foot down. Because once you stop, it's always harder to get going again.
I also ride a lot in clay and loam, slippery, loose surfaces, where you need to stay smooth when climbing, to keep from spinning out the rear and dumping your momentum.

Sure, you can bunny-hop /wheelie-hop on flats; It's a good skill to have, and i practice it as i can. However, clipless makes it so much easier. On flats, i have to 'set up' for it, on clipless, i can just 'yank-and-go-up.' I don't aspire to the level of skill for Observed Trials, just improving the quality of my own ride.

You're telling me my 40 years of experience pulling my cleat off the pedal when I forgot to tighten my toestraps didn't happen. Or the miles I have pedaled "deleting" the downward push to save my knees when my CP (chrondomalcia patella) was kicking in. Or the miles I have done emphasizing the upward stroke to save my quads for later in the the race when I knew what was coming. These skills were all acquired by training to "pedal circles" like many of us were in the '70s.

So research proves my experience didn't happen. I guess I have been mislead a long time. I stand educated.

Ben

I really like the plain, cheap M520 for commuting:

- having SPDs on both sides means you can just put a foot down blindly and know that it'll clip in -- no concern about which side happens to be up
- getting a pedal up into position for taking off at the intersection is nicer with a foot "stuck" to a pedal -- no need to take a foot off and nudge the pedal up from underneath with your toes before putting it back on top again anymore (this really irritated me about my English 3-speed the other day when I dusted it off)

Thanks for the well written response.

I wanted to respond but I'm not sure there's more to cover. Your argument was one-sided on the side of clipless, and I wanted to point out the numerous arguments on the other side. Not sure I have more to add as for fact or points. :-)

Clipless vs flats is like debating a good compact car vs an suv. Which one is better depends on your priorities and what you need. The OP of this thread is in the same situation as I am commuting to work, so I feel like there's not much of a rational argument for clipless in this situation. Even if one did gain a little speed with clipless which is debatable, it's not going to be worth the time lost and additional hassle that would come with carrying a 2nd pair of shoes and switching shoes.

Going faster and swapping shoes are kinda strawmen, though. I don't care whether SPDs make me faster or slower, and my shoes are comfortable enough that I just continue to wear them all day. :)

Not sure why you're debating the merits of clipless for speed. The OP has clearly written that he cares about consistent foot placement, to which I've already vouched for vastly preferring clipless in my personal experience as a commuter:

I agree. There is no need to swap cycling shoes or change shoes at work if going to SPD.

You can keep your road shoes if you want... They make SPD cleats for three bolt road shoes.

https://www.modernbike.com/xpedo-xpr...pd-style-cleat

Quoc makes two bolt dress shoes and companies like Chrome and Five Ten make more casual two bolt shoes.

https://quocpham.com/


-Tim-

Starting post of thread:

Are you kdding? BF loves talking (arguing) about this. (See where you wrote you were going for it, and then the thread continued for 2 1/2 more pages?)

For those who ride fixies, definitely need some kind of foot retention.

For those who race, definitely want effective power (note there's a difference between efficient and effective--retention isn't more efficient, but it can be more effective).

For the vain, definitely want the pro look. (I'm in this category.)

For everyone else, doesn't really matter.

The downsides are: 1. extra cost (but it doesn't really have to cost an arm and a leg), and 2. a poor setup can cause repetitive strain injury (of course, a proper setup will be fine).

Eh, for me, I can take em or leave em. Buying MTB shoes and using without cleats got me to 95% of what I wanted simply from having a stiff sole on a flat pedal. Ended up putting cleats on them when the plate covering the holes got so worn it was useless after a year and a half, the feeling of being connected to the pedal is nice, the best description is that it essentially turns your entire shoe into a pedal, but I don't notice any more efficiency or such. I still regularly unclip and ride flats. I may still do my summer tour on flats, haven't decided if I want to car around a second set of shoes or not.

I run mostly dual-sided pedals, SPD on one side, flat on the other. At least with my Shimano pedals, when unclipped they always fall the same way so I just know to push the top of the pedal forward if I want SPD, or pull it back if I want flats.

I much prefer having clipless on my commute. With the frequent stops, being able to put my foot at the 2 o'clock position at each light is quite handy. I just use a par of "commuter" shoes and I don't have to change when I get to work either (fortunately my work isn't very formal).
I do, however, use pedals that are flat on one side. During my final couple km downtown I keep my one foot unclipped due to the extremely frequent stops.

You Ask A Simple Question...
 

So, you ask a simple question….. What do you get? Pages of loquacious, longwinded rhetoric that borders the N, E, S, and W of the original question. Whew,,, I did not think I’d get complete instructions on how to build a watch. I’m not suggesting that the posts were not interesting or helpful, on the contrary. I thank all for taking the time to respond!!

Anyway, I found the two most helpful posts were fromsurak and cyccommute. To the two of them I raise my mug of brewski. And to let them know that last Friday I received my order of Shimano PD-M520L clipless pedals, Tommaso Milano off road shoes, and Shimano SH-56 cleats. Saturday and Sunday I did a few miles around my ‘hood’ getting used to the ‘in & out’ clipping drill. (No I didn’t fall over---yet.)

Today is Wednesday and I’m three days into my 20 mile weekly morning road rides. All I can say is WOW. I should not have waited so long.

Again I give large thanks to all of you….. Great forum and by the way I already have a watch…….. (grin).

A couple of weeks ago I went with some people to a 35 mile ride. I forgot to bring my bike shoes and was reduced to riding in my tennis shoes. You aren't saying the HALF of it about using muscles you never knew you had just to keep your feet on the pedals. The ONLY con of clipless pedals is falling over because you're too slow clipping out. Even after 40 years I still manage to get in positions where I have very close calls getting unclipped.

It sounds like you tried to ride with tennis shoes on top of clipless pedals?

I experienced a little bit of foot not being rock solidly connected to the pedal with chrome shoes (regular rubber sole) and decent pedals. But that went away with five tens and their stickier rubber.

Seems a little odd that clipless using more muscles would be and advantage, but flats using more muscles would be a drawback.

Yes, tennis shoes on the back of Look Delta pedals.

You are using more muscles with clipless but with a great deal less output. When I start pedaling circles the bike accelerates quite a bit.