Cambrium C17 didn't work - which next?
06-01-18, 01:07 PM
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Cambrium C17 didn't work - which next?
Hi all
I've used Brooks B17 saddles for a number of years, but now that I'm doing more distance (~100 miles a week including one ride a week in the 40 to 70 mile range), perineal numbness has become a concern. I got a C17 carved (all weather) to address the issue. The cutout worked great. No more perineal numbness!! However, the seat caused a different problem - soreness in the coccyx area. I never had this problem on a bicycle before. However I had struggled with it in the past with kayak seats, because of the elevated knees seating position in a kayak putting all the pressure there. I was dumbfounded to find I had gotten this issue on a bicycle, because I didn't think the seat would even press against an area that would cause it (BTW my bike has basically a touring layout with drop bars and seat about the same height as the bars - not an aggressive racing position but not an upright comfort position either).
Relative to the B17 the C17 has a more rounded shape and the swoop up in the back is also more pronounced. I assume one or the other of these attributes is causing my problem. I've been wondering if one of the other Cambriums (C13, C15, or C19) would work better. My sit bone width measures at about 120 to 125 mm, so I think in that regard I could handle a narrower saddle. Perhaps with a C13 being so much narrower I would sit further back on it and there would be much less pressure on the coccyx area? OR perhaps a C19 would provide a flatter surface to sit on so that the curved saddle shape wouldn't be pushing so deep into my crotch and therefore it would relieve pressure on the coccyx in that way? Anyone here have a similar issue that can offer any advice?
I've used Brooks B17 saddles for a number of years, but now that I'm doing more distance (~100 miles a week including one ride a week in the 40 to 70 mile range), perineal numbness has become a concern. I got a C17 carved (all weather) to address the issue. The cutout worked great. No more perineal numbness!! However, the seat caused a different problem - soreness in the coccyx area. I never had this problem on a bicycle before. However I had struggled with it in the past with kayak seats, because of the elevated knees seating position in a kayak putting all the pressure there. I was dumbfounded to find I had gotten this issue on a bicycle, because I didn't think the seat would even press against an area that would cause it (BTW my bike has basically a touring layout with drop bars and seat about the same height as the bars - not an aggressive racing position but not an upright comfort position either).
Relative to the B17 the C17 has a more rounded shape and the swoop up in the back is also more pronounced. I assume one or the other of these attributes is causing my problem. I've been wondering if one of the other Cambriums (C13, C15, or C19) would work better. My sit bone width measures at about 120 to 125 mm, so I think in that regard I could handle a narrower saddle. Perhaps with a C13 being so much narrower I would sit further back on it and there would be much less pressure on the coccyx area? OR perhaps a C19 would provide a flatter surface to sit on so that the curved saddle shape wouldn't be pushing so deep into my crotch and therefore it would relieve pressure on the coccyx in that way? Anyone here have a similar issue that can offer any advice?
06-01-18, 02:06 PM
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I've found the Brooks are pretty sensitive to saddle angle -- or perhaps I should say, my bottom is sensitive to the saddle angle. On a typical one-bolt seatpost, it was hit or miss whether the micro-adjust angle adjustment would hit a high or a low spot at the perfect angle. No worries with a two-bolt post; you can tweak those to a fraction of a screw thread, and the whole thing doesn't lose fore-aft adjustment in the process.
If you haven't tried a two-bolt seatpost, you might find the perfect saddle angle for either saddle with one.
If you haven't tried a two-bolt seatpost, you might find the perfect saddle angle for either saddle with one.
06-01-18, 03:56 PM
#5
Jedi Master
06-01-18, 04:23 PM
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Tail-bone.
I landed hard on mine once when I slipped and fell on a hike, and it bothered me for 5 years. The OP may have an old injury, anomaly/deformity, or who knows what.
I think his assumption about the more pronounced ridge on the saddle is a likely explanation.
Based on this I am going to suggest checking out mountain bike saddles.
I recently got this one, which fits my 120/125mm B17-friendly arse:
https://www.sq-lab.com/shop/en/Saddl...ve-active.html
They come in a bunch of different sizes. Mine was
1x 611 Ergowave Active S-Tube Saddle - 14cm #1896 for $169.99 each (sku: 1896)
Their US website is https://sqlab-usa.com
I landed hard on mine once when I slipped and fell on a hike, and it bothered me for 5 years. The OP may have an old injury, anomaly/deformity, or who knows what.
I think his assumption about the more pronounced ridge on the saddle is a likely explanation.
Based on this I am going to suggest checking out mountain bike saddles.
I recently got this one, which fits my 120/125mm B17-friendly arse:
https://www.sq-lab.com/shop/en/Saddl...ve-active.html
They come in a bunch of different sizes. Mine was
1x 611 Ergowave Active S-Tube Saddle - 14cm #1896 for $169.99 each (sku: 1896)
Their US website is https://sqlab-usa.com
06-01-18, 05:06 PM
#7
Senior Member
I suggest checking out:
https://www.cervelo.com/en/engineeri...f-road-saddles
Selle SMP's patent app: Bicycle Saddle (Selle Smp S.a.s. Di Maurizio Schiavon)
ISM's theory: https://www.ismseat.com/technology/
Stev Hogg's blog: https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ll-about-smps/
https://www.cervelo.com/en/engineeri...f-road-saddles
Selle SMP's patent app: Bicycle Saddle (Selle Smp S.a.s. Di Maurizio Schiavon)
ISM's theory: https://www.ismseat.com/technology/
Stev Hogg's blog: https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ll-about-smps/
06-01-18, 05:33 PM
#8
WALSTIB
Have to agree on MRT2 on B17 with cutout maybe. I have used B17 w/cutout but now use C17 all weather w/cutout and haven't had any issues. I think the C17 with the cloth top was a little more comfortable but was getting pretty beat up looking. C17 all weather only not very comfy for rides without padded shorts for me. Maybe if you can still find the denim model C17 cutout an option too.
06-02-18, 04:51 AM
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I am a long time Brooks advocate. My latest is the C15 with the cutout. No problems after several hundred miles. 17s are too wide for me.
06-02-18, 05:48 AM
#12
Jedi Master
I had to google it. I've never heard of anyone with that complaint before.
I agree that a saddle with a flat or even a curved top would be worth trying out. I'd also fiddle around with the tilt as someone else mentioned to find that perfect balance between the coccyx and the perineal pressure.
I agree that a saddle with a flat or even a curved top would be worth trying out. I'd also fiddle around with the tilt as someone else mentioned to find that perfect balance between the coccyx and the perineal pressure.
06-02-18, 08:27 AM
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Thank you for all the replies. Laughing at myself a bit because I should have said 'tail-bone' instead of using the more technical term 'coccyx'. I'm guessing more than one person was thrown off by that. Anyway I had high hopes for the Cambium Carved because I really like an unpadded saddle. I usually don't wear any padded sorts or liner either, or if I do it's an ultra-thin triathlon type. I have found padding uncomfortable and makes perineal issues worse (or should I just say 'numb-dick'?). Anyway, I was very happy with the perineal relief from the cutout in the Cambium Carved. It was such a surprise to find it caused pain above the back of the seat in the tail-bone area. Yes, I did injure that area over 40 years ago, but as I said it's usually only been when sitting on a flat surface knees-up (as with a kayak seat) that has aggravated it. I was surprised to find a bicycle could apply pressure in the right area to cause this.
I've seen that saddle and was already considering it. I was wondering if its flatter platform is what I need. It's great to hear that it worked for a B17 afficianodo with tail-bone pain. Thank you very much for that input! Had you had any perineal issues before, and was the Ergowave effective for that as well? Do you do long (over 50 mile) rides and was it firm enough for that? (I find padding to be more of a problem the longer one is riding.)
I may cut (I believe 'butcher' is the term used) my B17 with a DIY imperial-type cutout so I can keep using it. But one of the other reasons I went to the Cambium series was so I could stop worrying about proper care and treatment of the B17's leather. I'm concerned that with a cutout, the saddle will be even less durable.
The other saddles I have considered (but haven't been able to try) are the Selle SMP Drakon, and the Fizik Antares EVO. The SMP curves up a lot in the back but its cutout extends all the way back so perhaps it wouldn't pressure the tailbone? wgscott, had you ever tried one of these? I wish there was an LBS around here that had these as test saddles so I could try a long ride before buying. I only found the C17 was a problem upon doing a 40 mile ride with it.
I may cut (I believe 'butcher' is the term used) my B17 with a DIY imperial-type cutout so I can keep using it. But one of the other reasons I went to the Cambium series was so I could stop worrying about proper care and treatment of the B17's leather. I'm concerned that with a cutout, the saddle will be even less durable.
The other saddles I have considered (but haven't been able to try) are the Selle SMP Drakon, and the Fizik Antares EVO. The SMP curves up a lot in the back but its cutout extends all the way back so perhaps it wouldn't pressure the tailbone? wgscott, had you ever tried one of these? I wish there was an LBS around here that had these as test saddles so I could try a long ride before buying. I only found the C17 was a problem upon doing a 40 mile ride with it.
06-02-18, 08:45 AM
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Thank you for all the replies. Laughing at myself a bit because I should have said 'tail-bone' instead of using the more technical term 'coccyx'. I'm guessing more than one person was thrown off by that. Anyway I had high hopes for the Cambium Carved because I really like an unpadded saddle. I usually don't wear any padded sorts or liner either, or if I do it's an ultra-thin triathlon type. I have found padding uncomfortable and makes perineal issues worse (or should I just say 'numb-dick'?). Anyway, I was very happy with the perineal relief from the cutout in the Cambium Carved. It was such a surprise to find it caused pain above the back of the seat in the tail-bone area. Yes, I did injure that area over 40 years ago, but as I said it's usually only been when sitting on a flat surface knees-up (as with a kayak seat) that has aggravated it. I was surprised to find a bicycle could apply pressure in the right area to cause this.
I've seen that saddle and was already considering it. I was wondering if its flatter platform is what I need. It's great to hear that it worked for a B17 afficianodo with tail-bone pain. Thank you very much for that input! Had you had any perineal issues before, and was the Ergowave effective for that as well? Do you do long (over 50 mile) rides and was it firm enough for that? (I find padding to be more of a problem the longer one is riding.)
I may cut (I believe 'butcher' is the term used) my B17 with a DIY imperial-type cutout so I can keep using it. But one of the other reasons I went to the Cambium series was so I could stop worrying about proper care and treatment of the B17's leather. I'm concerned that with a cutout, the saddle will be even less durable.
The other saddles I have considered (but haven't been able to try) are the Selle SMP Drakon, and the Fizik Antares EVO. The SMP curves up a lot in the back but its cutout extends all the way back so perhaps it wouldn't pressure the tailbone? wgscott, had you ever tried one of these? I wish there was an LBS around here that had these as test saddles so I could try a long ride before buying. I only found the C17 was a problem upon doing a 40 mile ride with it.
I've seen that saddle and was already considering it. I was wondering if its flatter platform is what I need. It's great to hear that it worked for a B17 afficianodo with tail-bone pain. Thank you very much for that input! Had you had any perineal issues before, and was the Ergowave effective for that as well? Do you do long (over 50 mile) rides and was it firm enough for that? (I find padding to be more of a problem the longer one is riding.)
I may cut (I believe 'butcher' is the term used) my B17 with a DIY imperial-type cutout so I can keep using it. But one of the other reasons I went to the Cambium series was so I could stop worrying about proper care and treatment of the B17's leather. I'm concerned that with a cutout, the saddle will be even less durable.
The other saddles I have considered (but haven't been able to try) are the Selle SMP Drakon, and the Fizik Antares EVO. The SMP curves up a lot in the back but its cutout extends all the way back so perhaps it wouldn't pressure the tailbone? wgscott, had you ever tried one of these? I wish there was an LBS around here that had these as test saddles so I could try a long ride before buying. I only found the C17 was a problem upon doing a 40 mile ride with it.
06-02-18, 09:11 AM
#15
Banned
My park, locked on the street in the rain, saddle is a Fizik Vitesse ,
from a special batch made for Brompton
offered in their light Ti parts factory upgrade options,years ago..
dense padding and Pleather covered.
rail bend pattern somewhat different than ,,
the regular Vitesse , a 'unisex' last seen in the regular Fizik line
in white and pink, rather than the black mine are..
99 saddles to try, on the wall, take one down ride it around,
98 saddles left to try on the wall
..
from a special batch made for Brompton
offered in their light Ti parts factory upgrade options,years ago..
dense padding and Pleather covered.
rail bend pattern somewhat different than ,,
the regular Vitesse , a 'unisex' last seen in the regular Fizik line
in white and pink, rather than the black mine are..
99 saddles to try, on the wall, take one down ride it around,
98 saddles left to try on the wall
..
06-02-18, 10:04 AM
#16
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I've seen that saddle and was already considering it. I was wondering if its flatter platform is what I need. It's great to hear that it worked for a B17 afficianodo with tail-bone pain. Thank you very much for that input! Had you had any perineal issues before, and was the Ergowave effective for that as well? Do you do long (over 50 mile) rides and was it firm enough for that? (I find padding to be more of a problem the longer one is riding.)
I may cut (I believe 'butcher' is the term used) my B17 with a DIY imperial-type cutout so I can keep using it. But one of the other reasons I went to the Cambium series was so I could stop worrying about proper care and treatment of the B17's leather. I'm concerned that with a cutout, the saddle will be even less durable.
The other saddles I have considered (but haven't been able to try) are the Selle SMP Drakon, and the Fizik Antares EVO. The SMP curves up a lot in the back but its cutout extends all the way back so perhaps it wouldn't pressure the tailbone? wgscott, had you ever tried one of these? I wish there was an LBS around here that had these as test saddles so I could try a long ride before buying. I only found the C17 was a problem upon doing a 40 mile ride with it.[/left]
With all of those disclaimers, my suggestion is probably next to worthless, but in general a mountain bike profile saddle might help, since they are designed for people who like to slide back over the saddle to distribute weight.
If the Brooks is no good to you now, you might as well carve it. It is very easy with a sharp scalpel or Xacto blade.
Also, these are on sale and might be worth a try:
https://selleanatomica.com/collectio...ivets-closeout
My kid uses one and it is the only saddle that worked for him. It is a lot softer than the Brooks, FWIW.
06-02-18, 10:29 AM
#17
Jedi Master
You can get Berthoud saddles with a cutout too. Another one to consider.
06-02-18, 10:55 AM
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Hi all
I've used Brooks B17 saddles for a number of years, but now that I'm doing more distance (~100 miles a week including one ride a week in the 40 to 70 mile range), perineal numbness has become a concern. I got a C17 carved (all weather) to address the issue. The cutout worked great. No more perineal numbness!! However, the seat caused a different problem - soreness in the coccyx area. I never had this problem on a bicycle before. However I had struggled with it in the past with kayak seats, because of the elevated knees seating position in a kayak putting all the pressure there. I was dumbfounded to find I had gotten this issue on a bicycle, because I didn't think the seat would even press against an area that would cause it (BTW my bike has basically a touring layout with drop bars and seat about the same height as the bars - not an aggressive racing position but not an upright comfort position either).
Relative to the B17 the C17 has a more rounded shape and the swoop up in the back is also more pronounced. I assume one or the other of these attributes is causing my problem. I've been wondering if one of the other Cambriums (C13, C15, or C19) would work better. My sit bone width measures at about 120 to 125 mm, so I think in that regard I could handle a narrower saddle. Perhaps with a C13 being so much narrower I would sit further back on it and there would be much less pressure on the coccyx area? OR perhaps a C19 would provide a flatter surface to sit on so that the curved saddle shape wouldn't be pushing so deep into my crotch and therefore it would relieve pressure on the coccyx in that way? Anyone here have a similar issue that can offer any advice?
I've used Brooks B17 saddles for a number of years, but now that I'm doing more distance (~100 miles a week including one ride a week in the 40 to 70 mile range), perineal numbness has become a concern. I got a C17 carved (all weather) to address the issue. The cutout worked great. No more perineal numbness!! However, the seat caused a different problem - soreness in the coccyx area. I never had this problem on a bicycle before. However I had struggled with it in the past with kayak seats, because of the elevated knees seating position in a kayak putting all the pressure there. I was dumbfounded to find I had gotten this issue on a bicycle, because I didn't think the seat would even press against an area that would cause it (BTW my bike has basically a touring layout with drop bars and seat about the same height as the bars - not an aggressive racing position but not an upright comfort position either).
Relative to the B17 the C17 has a more rounded shape and the swoop up in the back is also more pronounced. I assume one or the other of these attributes is causing my problem. I've been wondering if one of the other Cambriums (C13, C15, or C19) would work better. My sit bone width measures at about 120 to 125 mm, so I think in that regard I could handle a narrower saddle. Perhaps with a C13 being so much narrower I would sit further back on it and there would be much less pressure on the coccyx area? OR perhaps a C19 would provide a flatter surface to sit on so that the curved saddle shape wouldn't be pushing so deep into my crotch and therefore it would relieve pressure on the coccyx in that way? Anyone here have a similar issue that can offer any advice?
One tell, was that the dimples formed on my seat were slightly off centered, more to the right. I had been dropping my right side to compensate. Now that I have the seat lower, I have no back issues, no more hip pain, I thought I was just old and had beat my body over the years, which is all true, but the pain was from the bike. I no longer have quad soreness after a ride, no matter the distance. In other words, all my issues have gone away, same seat, simply lower.
I began trying to follow Steve's advice, but still resisted a bit, until over this past Winter on the trainer, had to move my light clamp to lower the seat a bit more, and didn't do it for a while since I though my seat was plenty low. On night after being frustrated with some soreness, I moved the clamp, lowered the seat, and it was like a light switch. It has remained there since. No perineal pain, no quad soreness, no hip pain, no back issues, no knee pain, nothing. I also have much more power up the Pittsburgh hills, fully loaded.
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/02/seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be/
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/
06-02-18, 11:10 AM
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@phughes
I found also that the Brooks B17 is more comfortable (to me) when the height is a bit lower (~5mm) than the recommended height based on my leg length. One of my legs is slightly shorter, which sounds a lot like your saddle dimple asymmetry observation.
So it might be worth simply lowering the B17 first to see if that helps. (If mine is too high, I feel it in the hip joint of the shorter leg.) Some people deliberately offset the saddle from center alignment for this reason, but I have never tried.
I found also that the Brooks B17 is more comfortable (to me) when the height is a bit lower (~5mm) than the recommended height based on my leg length. One of my legs is slightly shorter, which sounds a lot like your saddle dimple asymmetry observation.
So it might be worth simply lowering the B17 first to see if that helps. (If mine is too high, I feel it in the hip joint of the shorter leg.) Some people deliberately offset the saddle from center alignment for this reason, but I have never tried.
06-02-18, 11:23 AM
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Selle Italia. They have a notch or a cutout in the coccyx area. They also have a different philosophy on how a saddle should work (work in two pieces, left and right). They also incorporate the perineal relief cut.
https://www.selleitalia.com/en/saddles/
To this day I haven't digested the idea behind the Cambiums. You buy leather saddles with all the attendant maintenance/protection problems because the 'mature' (for lack of a better word) to your personal, individual 'shape'. Why buy a synthetic seat that will never conform to your 'personal shape'?
I have a B17 and a Flyer (B17 with springs).
https://www.selleitalia.com/en/saddles/
To this day I haven't digested the idea behind the Cambiums. You buy leather saddles with all the attendant maintenance/protection problems because the 'mature' (for lack of a better word) to your personal, individual 'shape'. Why buy a synthetic seat that will never conform to your 'personal shape'?
I have a B17 and a Flyer (B17 with springs).
06-02-18, 11:35 AM
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@phughes
I found also that the Brooks B17 is more comfortable (to me) when the height is a bit lower (~5mm) than the recommended height based on my leg length. One of my legs is slightly shorter, which sounds a lot like your saddle dimple asymmetry observation.
So it might be worth simply lowering the B17 first to see if that helps. (If mine is too high, I feel it in the hip joint of the shorter leg.) Some people deliberately offset the saddle from center alignment for this reason, but I have never tried.
I found also that the Brooks B17 is more comfortable (to me) when the height is a bit lower (~5mm) than the recommended height based on my leg length. One of my legs is slightly shorter, which sounds a lot like your saddle dimple asymmetry observation.
So it might be worth simply lowering the B17 first to see if that helps. (If mine is too high, I feel it in the hip joint of the shorter leg.) Some people deliberately offset the saddle from center alignment for this reason, but I have never tried.
06-02-18, 02:56 PM
#22
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So I bit the bullet today and butchered my B17. I templated the cutout shape from the C17 Carved (which is a different cutout shape from the B17 Imperial). Just finished a 25 mile ride with it and not a hint of numbness. I haven't punched holes in the sides to lace it like an Imperial, and around the cutout I just gave it a coat of poofhide - I don't know how to give it a nice finished edge (burnish?). But my riding experience was very positive. And my B17 is blue, which is a color you can't get with the Imperial, so this is now a real one of a kind. Happy camper.
06-02-18, 03:19 PM
#23
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@Dolphran Cool. I cut my blue B17 to look like a Swift by cutting the 'skirt' off. I haven't tried the center cut-out, but might at some point. I used a dremmel on the rough edges.
Please post a photo if you get a chance.
@phughes I made it almost 50 years without knowning my legs were of unequal length. I only found out when getting measured for a custom bike. I consider bilateral asymmetry to be a personal failing.
Please post a photo if you get a chance.
@phughes I made it almost 50 years without knowning my legs were of unequal length. I only found out when getting measured for a custom bike. I consider bilateral asymmetry to be a personal failing.
06-02-18, 09:04 PM
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@Dolphran Cool. I cut my blue B17 to look like a Swift by cutting the 'skirt' off. I haven't tried the center cut-out, but might at some point. I used a dremmel on the rough edges.
Please post a photo if you get a chance.
@phughes I made it almost 50 years without knowning my legs were of unequal length. I only found out when getting measured for a custom bike. I consider bilateral asymmetry to be a personal failing.
Please post a photo if you get a chance.
@phughes I made it almost 50 years without knowning my legs were of unequal length. I only found out when getting measured for a custom bike. I consider bilateral asymmetry to be a personal failing.
06-04-18, 05:10 AM
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