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Pepper Spray recommendations

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Old 07-09-18, 11:53 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
So was I ... neither time when I was on a bike and I grew up and got over it!
You missed my point. Think of more than yourself. What about the next person or child that is subjected to off leash, misbehaved animal?

I'll spell it out:
There is no good reason to subject more people to untrained dogs running loose.

If the owners fail to train, a shot of pepper will.

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Old 07-10-18, 12:11 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
I carry bear spray on every ride. I've used it several times on dogs that get within range, which is 15-20 feet. I'm not interested in guessing the dog's intentions, or hoping its owner has the dog's rabies vaccination up to date. The spray deploys as a fog, and to date, has stopped each dog in its tracks. I don't believe that the dog suffers permanent damage, but if it does, I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with crashing because of a dog running under my front wheel or because I'm kicking the dog in the face to try to make it back off. I hate effing dogs and their stupid owners who don't keep them on their own property.

I wonder in all seriousness how many innocent dogs that don't chase cyclists have been hit and injured by an idiot cyclist screaming round a corner on a MUP whilst out for a leisurely walk with their responsible owners .... maybe they should carry pepper spray for the irresponsible cyclists.

In terms of the dogs being kept on their own property ... wild dogs have roamed the earth since goodness knows when .... domesticated dogs for 32,000 which dwarfs the 2,000 the new invention called a bicycle has around ..... if you so strongly believe they should be segregated maybe the new invention should respect what's preceded for an awful lot longer and stay on it's own property instead.

With an attitude like yours I'll bet the owners and their dogs think much the same about you as you do them.
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Old 07-10-18, 12:19 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
You missed my point. Think of more than yourself. What about the next person or child that is subjected to off leash, misbehaved animal?

I'll spell it out:
There is no good reason to subject more people to untrained dogs running loose.

If the owners fail to train, a shot of pepper will.
Certainly if it is a vicious dog, here in the UK if they launch an unprovoked attack on someone I believe they're liable for destruction which personally I'm not against and don't condone genuinely vicious dogs in any way, shape or form.

I do think though the attitude portrayed by a number in here is shoot 1st ask questions later and the vast majority of the incidents referred to are probably just a dog playing and chasing a moving object.

How many times have you seen a dog chase a bird, squirrel, cat, rabbit ... half of them when they catch it they haven't got a clue what to do with it and just leave it alone .... 97% of incidents on bikes will fall into this category with the few incidents where the dog does actually attack but I don't think in these instances it'd be any different if it was a cyclist or just a child running by.
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Old 07-10-18, 12:21 AM
  #129  
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Old 07-10-18, 12:38 AM
  #130  
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Just as a sobering reminder, human instinct, well-intended, can have disastrous consequences :19 students hurt when car driver swerves to avoid dogs .
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Old 07-10-18, 12:39 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
Certainly if it is a vicious dog, here in the UK if they launch an unprovoked attack on someone I believe they're liable for destruction which personally I'm not against and don't condone genuinely vicious dogs in any way, shape or form.

I do think though the attitude portrayed by a number in here is shoot 1st ask questions later and the vast majority of the incidents referred to are probably just a dog playing and chasing a moving object.

How many times have you seen a dog chase a bird, squirrel, cat, rabbit ... half of them when they catch it they haven't got a clue what to do with it and just leave it alone .... 97% of incidents on bikes will fall into this category with the few incidents where the dog does actually attack but I don't think in these instances it'd be any different if it was a cyclist or just a child running by.
​​​​​
Another childhood experience: One of our newly adopted playful chasers was crushed by a pickup truck. I'd rather he'd been sprayed and learned not to chase.

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Old 07-10-18, 01:10 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
​​​​​
Another childhood experience: One of our newly adopted playful chasers was crushed by a pickup truck. I'd rather he'd been sprayed and learned not to chase.
But this is where it is down to the owner, you need to know your dog and understand how it'll react in different circumstances rather than leaving it until it's too late and always err on the side of caution.

Some people can walk down the side of the road with their dog dutifully next to them at their heels ... others, like our Labrador would run straight across the road to say hello to a dog on the opposite side and was totally oblivious to traffic so she never came off the lead anywhere there were likely to be cars.
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Old 07-10-18, 02:01 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
I wonder in all seriousness how many innocent dogs that don't chase cyclists have been hit and injured by an idiot cyclist screaming round a corner on a MUP whilst out for a leisurely walk with their responsible owners .... maybe they should carry pepper spray for the irresponsible cyclists.

In terms of the dogs being kept on their own property ... wild dogs have roamed the earth since goodness knows when .... domesticated dogs for 32,000 which dwarfs the 2,000 the new invention called a bicycle has around ..... if you so strongly believe they should be segregated maybe the new invention should respect what's preceded for an awful lot longer and stay on it's own property instead.

With an attitude like yours I'll bet the owners and their dogs think much the same about you as you do them.
I don't ride in the city or on any greenways, with very, very rare exceptions. I ride on rural roads way out in the country. Without exception, every dog that has ever chased me has been based at a rural household/yard and has come bounding down the driveway into the road, after me. They are NOT wild dogs. If they remain in their yard or on the shoulder of the road, they don't get sprayed. If they are on the pavement with me, THEY ARE A VERY REAL THREAT TO ME. Crashing because of a dog running under my front wheel can easily mean broken bones for me. A dog bite can mean an emergency room visit and rabies shots.

This is not a case of a mistaken identity; these animals are trying to defend their grandiose idea of their territory. I am not riding into a stranger's yard and encountering an animal faithfully defending its owner's house.

I am not, however, going to waste time arguing with a dog or with its imbecilic owner about my right to pass by their house without incident.

If you can't understand that, you're too stupid to continue this conversation. Just keep your dog out of the road and we won't have a problem.

And by the way, to date I have not had to spray the same dog twice, so either the dog or the owner learned from the experience.

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Old 07-10-18, 02:32 AM
  #134  
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Do you think the dogs understand your rules, Grandpa?

Are there also not rules and regulations about what you can or cannot do, because, with an attitude such as yours, you are going to get sued one day.
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Old 07-10-18, 02:53 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
I don't believe that the dog suffers permanent damage, but if it does, I'm okay with that.
I hate effing dogs and their stupid owners who don't keep them on their own property.
Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
I am not, however, going to waste time arguing with a dog or with its imbecilic owner about my right to pass by their house without incident.

If you can't understand that, you're too stupid to continue this conversation.
You really are piece of work aren't you, have you ever been mistaken for a dictatorial bully .... if so I love them ... the minute you stand up to them they poop themselves as it's normally all mouth ...

Be an interesting study to see what percentage of bully's are frightened of dogs ... a real man wouldn't be but hey .... if you want to fess up to being scared underneath the bravado that's OK .... you're amongst friends.
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Old 07-10-18, 06:39 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
You really are piece of work aren't you, have you ever been mistaken for a dictatorial bully .... if so I love them ... the minute you stand up to them they poop themselves as it's normally all mouth ...

Be an interesting study to see what percentage of bully's are frightened of dogs ... a real man wouldn't be but hey .... if you want to fess up to being scared underneath the bravado that's OK .... you're amongst friends.
It's about defending myself against dogs that are a threat to my safety, and the safety of the lady with whom I ride.

As usual, when people can't defend their point of view with logic, you resort to name calling.

It's pointless to continue this conversation. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
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Old 07-10-18, 06:49 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
But this is where it is down to the owner, you need to know your dog and understand how it'll react in different circumstances rather than leaving it until it's too late and always err on the side of caution.

Some people can walk down the side of the road with their dog dutifully next to them at their heels ... others, like our Labrador would run straight across the road to say hello to a dog on the opposite side and was totally oblivious to traffic so she never came off the lead anywhere there were likely to be cars.
Yes, but sadly, many owners don't understand or care, so the reality is that off-leash dogs exist, and they aren't rare. They may pose an attack threat or an accident threat.

There are multiple ways with which to deal with them, none of which are mutually exclusive.
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Old 07-10-18, 07:16 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
It's about defending myself against dogs that are a threat to my safety, and the safety of the lady with whom I ride.

As usual, when people can't defend their point of view with logic, you resort to name calling.

It's pointless to continue this conversation. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
Have you tried using logic with reference to your problems with dogs and their owners? Perhaps a little understanding might help.
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Old 07-10-18, 07:22 AM
  #139  
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Sound like some of you create your own threats and problems, either actually and/or in your minds.
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Old 07-10-18, 07:36 AM
  #140  
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https://www.kansascity.com/news/loca...170200977.html

https://www.westword.com/news/dog-at...erders-5821289

WARNING: This one has nasty pictures: Arkansas cyclist Richard Holt mauled bydog but owner says pit bull is NOT vicious | Daily Mail Online


For fairness--here's a dumb dog owner on a bike who killed someone:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/09/...alls-and-dies/

And for the folks who have been arguing that training can't make a dog look on humans as prey: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...385649621.html
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Old 07-10-18, 07:44 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
It's about defending myself against dogs that are a threat to my safety, and the safety of the lady with whom I ride.

As usual, when people can't defend their point of view with logic, you resort to name calling.

It's pointless to continue this conversation. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
Yup, I'm chiming in on your side. I was riding down a neighborhood street just yesterday and passed a large dog standing in the street holding his own leash in his mouth waiting patiently for his owner to let him into the car for a ride. So any responsible owner can train their dog. I've also had dogs on leash lunge at me growling. Had their owner not been able to pull them back, I would have certainly went down hard. I even had to shoot a fence jumper years ago that was mauling my own animal in my own fenced in yard. The police backed me up 100% and cited the owner for harboring a viscious animal (for the third and final time). Might be rare, but can and does happen. I even live and ride in a low crime area. Pepper gel makes perfect "logical" sense to me.

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Old 07-10-18, 08:10 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post

As usual, when people can't defend their point of view with logic, you resort to name calling.
Errr ... excuse me ... resort to name calling ..... who was it who said "effing dogs" and "their stupid owners", shortly followed up by "their imbecilic owners" and lastly "you're too stupid to continue this conversation" .... and you accuse me of name calling ..... I've never seen anything quite so hypocritical and only serves to summarise your credibility ... or lack of.
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Old 07-10-18, 08:38 AM
  #143  
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Old 07-10-18, 09:01 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This is where you get into trouble--some people breed and train dogs to be mean to other humans. There are bad human "pack leaders" who train their dogs to treat other people quite badly. These people are not uniformly distributed accross the country, but they do exist.
How about providing some evidence? A news report about some "bad human 'pack leaders'" who are training dogs to attack other humans who aren't in jail for assault would be nice. Someone who would train a dog to attack another human with the intent to kill them or seriously injure them is going to suffer a similar fate as the dog. They will both be removed from society.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Also, if you're riding in some rural areas, there's a reasonable possibility that that charging dog IS feral.
Yes, but they still have some instincts that predators have. In other words, predators don't attack prey that is strong enough to fight back. It's not worth the energy expenditure nor the possibility of injury. The advice for dealing with bears and mountain lions, for example, applies to dogs. Make yourself appear large and scary. Yell, throw rocks, fight back, etc. Feral dogs have a least some genetic tempering of the predatory instinct that bears and mountain lions have due to humankind's selective breeding over 20 millennia.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Like all other methods, your method works unless it doesn't. I've just never been in a situation where there would have been an upside to stopping, and so far riding like a bat out of hell has worked for me.
How many stories can you find of someone who stopped to deal with a dog that got injured vs someone who tried to outrun a dog who got injured? I haven't seen a single instance of the former and have seen lots and lots of instances of the later. Most of my dealing with rural dogs has been while on tour with a bicycle loaded with 40+ pounds of gear. I'm not going to be able to "rid[e] like a bat out of hell" on that kind of bike unless there is a downhill. I also know that my chances of crashing while attempting to get out a bottle and spray it behind me while slowly "riding like a bat out of hell" are much greater than if I stop and deal with the dog. Most of the time, aggressively yelling at the dog does the trick. If it doesn't...as I've said infinitum...I escalate up to other methods. Stopping and being threatening hasn't failed yet. It may fail someday but I'll deal with that when the time comes.

And...I'll point out again...I'm at a severe disadvantage to those of you who are riding where you live. I have no prior experience with an area I'm touring through. I don't know where the "bad" dogs are nor do I know where any dog is going to be. My dog encounters have all been random and without warning. Yet, somehow, in 10,000+ miles of touring, I have not run across a dog that I can't deal with using a loud voice and/or a threatening stance.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:04 AM
  #145  
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^^^This, although for me it's been about 15,000 miles of self contained touring and thousands more of supported touring^^^
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Old 07-10-18, 09:06 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by DomaneS5 View Post
I'd like to lecture people on keeping it civil and reasonable, but I just let myself get trolled into a nasty multi-day argument over the use of siren whistles on bike paths in Saudi Arabia.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:12 AM
  #147  
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I haven't had to use my pepper spray yet. But I get chased on several of my routes. Riding like a "bat out of hell" has worked so far. One dog that chases me is creepy as hell and almost as fast as a greyhound, but not nearly as nice as a typical greyhound. He doesn't bark... and I can hear his toe nails clicking on the pavement. Lucky for me... it's a down hill run, so he tires out after 150 meters.

Knowing where the problem dogs are and being prepared is crucial in my experience. I usually ride the same routes, so there's no surprises.. unless someone decides to get a new dog.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:15 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
You are from Georgia and have seen the packs of dogs in the countryside first hand. There is some naivety on this thread however and some seem to have a more genteel frame of reference. I'm not sure they would feel the same if they climbed up Racoon Creek Rd in Dallas or met the group of dogs near the train tracks at the end of Braswell Mountain Rd in Rockmart.
I would say that there is a whole lot of fear in this thread...and not a little misrepresentation of others' point of view.

Since I'm the one with what you seem to feel is the "genteel frame of reference" and has the "naivety" thing wrapped up in your mind, I'll address both. I'm not a proponent of baby talking to a dog nor of assuming that a dog is just a misunderstood puppy...nor have I seen anyone else post those points of view. I am a proponent of treating dogs as threats until otherwise informed. When I say "yell at a dog", I mean loudly and aggressively. We are the 800 pound gorilla that dogs should never look in the eye. We are the ultimate predator and every dog from the smallest to the largest knows this in their DNA because we made their DNA what it is.



Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I got some Sabre Red Pepper Gel on on my knees this Saturday - my own fault from my own spray while riding with one other person. It was pretty intense, really uncomfortable. Not bad at all while riding as the wind cooled it off but when I stopped it burned really bad to the point where I had to keep squirting my water bottle on my knees. It took about 4 hours to calm down.


-Tim-
And you don't see the problem with pepper spray? Were you just playing around with it? What would have happened if that person you were riding with happened to be downwind of the spray when you sprayed it?
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Old 07-10-18, 09:23 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'd like to lecture people on keeping it civil and reasonable, but I just let myself get trolled into a nasty multi-day argument over the use of siren whistles on bike paths in Saudi Arabia.
I love threads where people get all bent out of shape over trivial topics.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:58 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
How about providing some evidence? A news report about some "bad human 'pack leaders'" who are training dogs to attack other humans who aren't in jail for assault would be nice. Someone who would train a dog to attack another human with the intent to kill them or seriously injure them is going to suffer a similar fate as the dog. They will both be removed from society.
.
They don't actually have to be bad morally, they might be in law enforcement, and their "protective" dog got loose: These dogs are trained to "apprehend" humans:

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...385649621.html



The expression "mean as a junkyard dog" has a basis in reality. You don't think "mean" guard dogs ever get loose? Basically, they're trained to attack anyone who isn't part of their pack.

The military trains dogs to be fiercely protective of their handlers and potentially deadly against others. Are we really to assume there aren't survivalists and othe r crazies who don't employ those techniques?

Look, you have a strategy that works for you. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but there's a lot of situations where I'm sure I would have gotten into a lot more trouble employing it. I'm also quite sure that if I tried to use pepper spray, I'd be way more likely to spray myself than the dog, but I'm also not going to try to talk people out of using it if they find it works for them. If they're using it in a crowded area or on a group ride, that's another story.

I've said that the response has to be conditioned on the situation, your fully laden touring bike is part of your situation. If I'm on a fast bike on a good road, I'm sure I can outrun 95% of dogs. I like those odds compared to the probability that my yelling is going to stop the dog. In a self-defense situation, we play to our strengths, and try to avoid our weaknesses. My second option would be to act as you're describing, which I would do if I didn't like my chances of riding fast.

Given how out of control some of this thread has become, I want you to know that my disagreement with you is respectful, and I appreciate that you argue quite civilly. I think I've said as much as I want to on this subject, so please don't take offense if I don't respond further.
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