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Rivendell seems to have changed

Old 03-09-19, 02:47 PM
  #151  
Happy Feet
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Here's the top of an email I got from Rivendell recently:



So, if they could only ride, say, an OPEN U.P. they'd never get on a bike again? If they were only allowed to ride a Di2 Madone SLR with 700x28 tires, no more bike riding?

For a lot of people, the idea of a Rivendell bike is appealing. Twine, leather, steel, platform pedals, California sand roads, seersucker shirt, picnic basket, cork in the wine and on the bars. It's nice. But if I were to ever buy a Rivendell, it would be my fifth or sixth bike -- it's just not my regular life as a rider; not every day is a rambling picnic day.

Yes, if the only bikes available were Rivendell bikes, I would wash my beard in pine tar soap and saddle up. But that's not the world we live in. In the real world, modern bikes do everything a Rivendell bike does, just way better. And in the real world, you can buy a cool used steel framed bike that fits wide tires on eBay or your local swap for less than $200. That leaves about $2,000 for cork, chrome, leather, etc.

My advice for Rivendell would be to keep selling a vision, an aesthetic. But don't pretend the real world isn't out there; it is -- at best, they can offer an escape from it, not a whole substitution.
The real world is just an illusion. You make it whatever you want. For most I might think a utility bike (what the riv style is) would be what one would use everyday as opposed to say, a Di2 Madone SLR. That is a very specific type of bike. Do you haul groceries with it, lock it up outside when you're at work or attach a kids trailer on the weekend?

The Riv aesthetic harkens back to a time when ordinary people rode ordinary bikes for ordinary activities. I do agree it is a stylized aesthetic that one can replicate for far less but such is the nature of consumerism. People seem to spend an awful lot on leisure equipment that they hope reflects a certain image about them. Roadies and hipsters alike.
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Old 03-09-19, 03:50 PM
  #152  
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If I could only ride a Madone Di2 with 28s I probably would never ride a bike again...just not the type of riding I do anymore and riding a Madone on the gravel roads and trails I do would be a disaster.
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Old 03-09-19, 08:49 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Here's the top of an email I got from Rivendell recently:



So, if they could only ride, say, an OPEN U.P. they'd never get on a bike again? If they were only allowed to ride a Di2 Madone SLR with 700x28 tires, no more bike riding?

For a lot of people, the idea of a Rivendell bike is appealing. Twine, leather, steel, platform pedals, California sand roads, seersucker shirt, picnic basket, cork in the wine and on the bars. It's nice. But if I were to ever buy a Rivendell, it would be my fifth or sixth bike -- it's just not my regular life as a rider; not every day is a rambling picnic day.

Yes, if the only bikes available were Rivendell bikes, I would wash my beard in pine tar soap and saddle up. But that's not the world we live in. In the real world, modern bikes do everything a Rivendell bike does, just way better. And in the real world, you can buy a cool used steel framed bike that fits wide tires on eBay or your local swap for less than $200. That leaves about $2,000 for cork, chrome, leather, etc.

My advice for Rivendell would be to keep selling a vision, an aesthetic. But don't pretend the real world isn't out there; it is -- at best, they can offer an escape from it, not a whole substitution.
The thing is, a Riv bikes makes a good all around do anything bike. Itís just that dressed up in fancy packaging.

Also - Rivís California is far from the beach and sand.
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Old 03-09-19, 10:21 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post


I get from that RBR post that the issue there is that it was an INTEGRATED headset. Yes, I would avoid those (though I have never even come accross an integration option in any bike I have looked at).

I have owned something like 20 bikes with threadless headsets. None had any sort of proprietary headset. Can you give an example of a frame with a proprietary threadless headset? I am sure they exist, but I think they are very uncommon. Maybe C-dale with some of there oddball forks, or bikes with shocks inside the head tube?

Yes, you can overtighten a threadless headset, but you can also overtighten a threaded one. Not sure how one is more or less likely to be overtightened. I find the preload easier to fine tune on threadless, but that is just me.

You donít need to remove a threadless headset to pull the stem. Though keeping the fork from falling out does take some planning unless you keep the bike on the ground.

I guess if adjusting the height is something you do a lot, threaded would make that easier. I know this is what GP sells the idea on. Might be very useful if bike is used by different riders.

In terms of performance, For casual use I donít see much difference, but in applications where I am torquing on the bars hard, I find threadless to be stiffer, and threaded more likely to creak (assuming the threadless headset uses an expansion ring).

To each his own, I guess.
read this: Klein headsets and other proprietary headaches!
https://www.cannondaleexperts.com/Headsets_c_64.html
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Old 03-09-19, 11:39 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
You need rather large wrenches to adjust a threaded headset, where threadless only takes some allen keys. If you happen to be away from your workstation and the headset loosens up, you are generally out of luck until you get back.
you are out of luck, or you just hand tighten it maybe a few times during the rest of your ride. Come to a stop? A 1/8 turn will tighten it back up.
hardly a big deal.
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Old 03-09-19, 11:41 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
I think the only reason threadless came out was because of aluminum and carbon fiber frames, a bike company couldn't make the headtube light enough in the case of aluminum because the headtube would have to be thicker to prevent the quill's wedge from damaging the headtube as you tighten it down to secure it; and in the case of carbon fiber you would have to use a thick steel or aluminum insert to prevent damaging the CF again defeating the purpose of trying to get the bike frame lighter.
interesting thought, but incorrect.
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Old 03-10-19, 04:03 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
I think the only reason threadless came out was because of aluminum and carbon fiber frames, a bike company couldn't make the headtube light enough in the case of aluminum because the headtube would have to be thicker to prevent the quill's wedge from damaging the headtube as you tighten it down to secure it; and in the case of carbon fiber you would have to use a thick steel or aluminum insert to prevent damaging the CF ...
interesting thought, but incorrect.

Origins: How the AheadSet threadless headset changed bikes forever @ CyclingTips, by James Huang, 2017. Interviews and research with Dia-Compe/Cane Creek on the origins of the threadless AheadSet concept.
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Old 03-10-19, 10:07 AM
  #158  
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I just flew back from California, sat next to a guy who put a small level on his tray and asked me, doesn't the horizon looked flat out the window. He told me a lot about NASA photoshopping stuff. Rivendell will always have some market as long as they persist. The facts just aren't on their side. If you don't think unpaved roads in California are generally sandy, come to Wisconsin sometime to experience clay and loam soils.
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Old 03-10-19, 12:52 PM
  #159  
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Like I said, I believe they exist. However, they are very uncommon outside of applications where they may be justified, such as with a Headshock or something like that. It figures C-dale would be an offender

But still, the issue is not the thread-less headset, it is the fact that some companies just want to do proprietary stuff. You can make a proprietary version of anything if you want. Specialized made a habit (might still) of using oddball size shocks that Fox would make just for them. If threadless never came out, I am sure someone would have come up with a proprietary version of a threaded headset as well.

In any event, unless you end up buying one of these uncommon proprietary setups, it is really a non-issue.

This is really not something I feel that strongly about. I find threadless a better system to work with myself, but if someone else like threaded, that's great. It's all good.
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Old 03-10-19, 12:57 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
I just flew back from California, sat next to a guy who put a small level on his tray and asked me, doesn't the horizon looked flat out the window. He told me a lot about NASA photoshopping stuff. Rivendell will always have some market as long as they persist. The facts just aren't on their side. If you don't think unpaved roads in California are generally sandy, come to Wisconsin sometime to experience clay and loam soils.
It doesn't look like Riv is long for this world. When they are gone will people mourn them or celebrate?
In another ten years steel frames will be stuff for the museums. Cyclist will think. "Why did they want to ride crap like that?"
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Old 03-10-19, 01:12 PM
  #161  
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In another ten years steel frames will be stuff for the museums.
Absolutely correct. Same thing happened to the LP, which died when CDs came out. (Just search the web on 'LP sales.')
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Old 03-10-19, 01:27 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
It doesn't look like Riv is long for this world. When they are gone will people mourn them or celebrate?
In another ten years steel frames will be stuff for the museums. Cyclist will think. "Why did they want to ride crap like that?"
Complete nonsense.

Carbon has been around for what, a couple of decades now, and steel hasn't gone anywhere. It's not going to go anywhere.

Plus, calling all steel bikes crap just negates whatever shred of argument you had. Tell Richard Sachs, Sacha White, Mitch Pryor, Ira Ryan, or the multitude of independent shops creating awesome steel bikes that they are creating crap.

Hell, there are a bunch of people still shooting photography using film.
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Old 03-10-19, 01:37 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
It doesn't look like Riv is long for this world. When they are gone will people mourn them or celebrate?
In another ten years steel frames will be stuff for the museums. Cyclist will think. "Why did they want to ride crap like that?"
Hey, I don't see why that would bother anyone seeing as society was supposed to collapse with Y2K and end in 2012 according to the Mayans.

But why would anyone celebrate the demise of an Americam Company trying to bring a little diversity to the bike scene. How did it negatively effect their personal choices to such a degree and is anyone really riding the last bike or genre or technology they will ever try?

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Old 03-10-19, 02:57 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
In another ten years steel frames will be stuff for the museums. Cyclist will think. "Why did they want to ride crap like that?"
For a moment I thought you were serious
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Old 03-10-19, 06:53 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
When Grant was going on about 603mm bead seat diameter I dropped him a note saying that 597 had been largely abandoned by tire makers but there was a significant built-in market with old Schwinns and collectors of British 26x1-1/4 bikes. And it was only 1% different from his proposal. And the tire makers had molds for 597 already, all they needed was an order. Got back a 1500 word rant about how 1% really matters. And he was a genius. And I understood nothing about bicycles. Kinda lost interest in his sales spiel after that.
I'm guessing 6 mm in tire bead variance may be too much while a few mm in crank arms may be imperceptible. I'm a genius too but lack the 1500 word vocabulary even if I throw in my most salient expletives =*)
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Old 03-24-20, 09:31 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
Absolutely correct. Same thing happened to the LP, which died when CDs came out. (Just search the web on 'LP sales.')
LPs are back, CDs & MP3s are dying. I prefer The Beatles on LP/mono.
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Old 03-25-20, 02:34 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by vascoboy View Post
LPs are back, CDs & MP3s are dying. I prefer The Beatles on LP/mono.
LP sales show that there are a lot of '60s reenactors out there.
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Old 03-25-20, 08:44 AM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by vascoboy View Post
LPs are back, CDs & MP3s are dying. I prefer The Beatles on LP/mono.
Current LP sales are, what <1% of what they were at their peak? That's a odd example of being "back".

LP's are the Rivendell of the media world.
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Old 03-25-20, 09:45 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Current LP sales are, what <1% of what they were at their peak? That's a odd example of being "back".

LP's are the Rivendell of the media world.
Except that that Rivendell was never anything but niche.

LPs are the 26Ē mtb of the media world.
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Old 03-25-20, 11:10 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Except that that Rivendell was never anything but niche.
The bikes Rivendell makes weren't niche way back then.
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Old 03-25-20, 11:44 AM
  #171  
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LP sales show that there are a lot of '60s reenactors out there.
A lot of LP buyers weren't even twinkles in their parents' eyes in the '60s. A lot of the buyers' parents weren't even a live in the '60s. Hardly re-enactors.

LPs are making money. Not as much as in the '70s, but they are profitable. They're not dead, and they're not obsolete.
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Old 03-25-20, 12:41 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
The bikes Rivendell makes weren't niche way back then.
Yes they were. They are more niche now.
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Old 03-25-20, 12:42 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
A lot of LP buyers weren't even twinkles in their parents' eyes in the '60s. A lot of the buyers' parents weren't even a live in the '60s. Hardly re-enactors.

LPs are making money. Not as much as in the '70s, but they are profitable. They're not dead, and they're not obsolete.
Streaming has killed physical media. CDs and LPs. Some are arguing that it is killing music generally.
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Old 03-25-20, 12:50 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
A lot of LP buyers weren't even twinkles in their parents' eyes in the '60s. A lot of the buyers' parents weren't even a live in the '60s. Hardly re-enactors.
Re-enactors don't relive their past lives. They are re-enacting other (generally, dead) people's lives.

Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
LPs are making money. Not as much as in the '70s, but they are profitable. They're not dead, and they're not obsolete.
https://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...l6u-story.html

$224 million for LP's. $5.4 billion for streaming.

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Old 03-25-20, 01:08 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
A lot of LP buyers weren't even twinkles in their parents' eyes in the '60s. A lot of the buyers' parents weren't even a live in the '60s.
.
You might want to do the math on that and re-evaluate that claim

For any of those people, vinyl has been a niche their entire lives.
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