A Bike for All Seasons?
 

I live in Maryland and do most of my local riding on the NCR Trail (also known as the Torrey C. Brown Trail). And I always spend a couple of weeks every summer riding the C and O Canal (a 4 day tour from end to end as well as multiple day rides). I ride a 2015 Salsa Vaya. When I was touring the C and O Canal a couple of weeks ago, the trail was sloppy with multiple slick spots and washouts, creating a stressful situation and a ride that was less enjoyable than it had been previously. I met a guy who was riding a fat bike, and he rode through / across most obstacles without a problem. He let me ride his bike at one of the rest stops, and I was surprised at how smoothly the bike rode. It got me thinking about N+1.


I am not looking for a bike that I can use to go out and shred single track. I am looking for a bike that I can ride in the rain / after the rain without worrying about dodging mud puddles or bogging down in the ones that I cannot avoid. I think that I would ride in the snow if I had a bike that was capable of handling it. I have been researching fat bikes, and I am liking what I see. When I call the LBS's, none of them have one that I can test ride, and they downplay my interest in a fat bike, telling me that I don't want one of those, but that I really want is a "plus" bike - that they happen to have in stock, costing only $3k (roughly three times as much what I am looking to spend).


I do not ride fast, and I do not ride aggressively. I just want a bike that I can ride whenever the weather is not conducive to riding my Vaya. Is a fat bike that bike, or should I be looking at a "plus" bike?

WTH is a "plus bike?"

Evidently it is mountain bike with 3 inch wide tires. According to the LBS, most of them are 27.5+. Anything with tires beyond that (4 or 5 inch) is considered a fat bike.

It should not be a problem finding an all seasons bike. The challenge with winter is usually frost and gearing parts; wires, cable housing and moving joints have be given the chance to dry up between uses. Snow build-up on the gear arm can happen. The second thing I can think of is finding a tyre you like for snow and icy condtioins; a rough pattern for snow grip, maybe spikes if there's hard ice. You can usually find a good selection for 26" and 28" rims, and the frame has to take the width you choose.

Around 47 m.m. width is plenty enough for most on and off road use. and the right type of treading pattern should cope with muddy roads. I don't think I ever have exceeded 50 m.m. width. I don't know if you use fenders, but make sure there is plenty of room between fender and tyre, you might need to poke out snow build up if there's loose snow and it's just above the point of frost. You can get a new bike, but just as easily fix up and old bike with 559 rim wheels. A lot of people keep a winter bike because it's much harder on the bike, and it can be a good idea to have at least 35 m.m. tyre width in frost, snow and salty conditions. It needs a bit of extra upkeep, but it doesn't have to be something very special. Your Vaya might be the ideal all round build to begin with.

I have to add that I have only test ridden fat bikes and have no idea about their finer points, but I know you should be able to fit a more regular bike with suitable tyres and rims for the job. If you are interested in trying out fat bike tire dimensions, this should not prevent you from further experimenting. Like with all bikes, the componets make a difference, the type of frame you like, gears, etc. I guess a more expensive bike taking 55 mm width tyres can turn out to be the better one in the long run, but it all depends on the qualities you look for in a fat bike. Some of my favorite bikes (for completely different riding) have been vintage fix up bikes that cost much less money than a higher quality new bike. To many factors are involved to give any straight forward advice. Someone with a fat bike will hopefully reply to the tread ;- )

I had a 2015 VAYA, and never thought that handling in slick conditions was a factor. But, if one was looking for more stability, a Jones handlebar may help (though converting to MTB levers/Shifters would be an expense). There are also all sorts of new drop handlebars on the market that are meant to handle more diverse terrain...

A mountain bike with 3" wide tires as compared to the "normal" skinny 2 inch tires. A bit silly if you ask me. 2" tires are heavy enough and provide more than enough cushion, especially when used with a suspension system.

Although I haven't looked at them extensively, for touring you probably don't want a mountain bike...at least not one that is in the price range that they are suggesting. Few mountain bikes have any kind of attachments for racks and the more expensive, the less likely they are to have been made with any utility in mind. Given the cost, I would suspect that the bike is a dual suspension bike or a very, very high priced hard tail.

I would also suggest against something with super wide tires because you have to push those tires. It takes a lot of effort to spin a large tire like that. For a 27.5" tire, each one weighs around 1.2 to 1.5 kg (2.6 to 3.3lb) vs 600 to 700g (1.3 to 1.5lb) so you are pushing almost double the weight and, since it is rotating weight, it has more impact on your speed and effort. A 29er would weight even more. A 2" tire is probably overkill for even the roughest of mountain bike trails and certainly overkill for something like the C&O.

I would suggest just a regular hardtail mountain bike with "skinny" tires and an air suspension fork with lockout. Trek has a number of them that even have rack mounts. Look at the cheaper mountain bikes like the Trek X-Caliber or Roscoe. Or look into a used late model mountain bike.

One that will let you run Studded tires in deep winter?

That's what I was thinkin'. I'm not sure how big of a tire a Vaya can run. Without checking the geometry, is there a chance one could fit a nice fat gravel/MTB tire, or maybe a 27.5 fattie? This could be as easy as building up a second wheelset and swapping as desired.


-Kedosto

If the Vaya isn't versatile enough for you, then go for a mountain bike and get a set of slick tires for road riding.

The way the industry is going, someday MTB tires will be this size.

https://www.jegs.com/images/photos/6.../672-72532.jpg

When I think of an "all purpose" bike I think CX. I love my Colnago World Cuphttps://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b08b9b6ae4.jpg
CX.

Your Vaya can clear 700x42 tires (700x38 with fenders). Which tires were/are you running on your Vaya? Salsa themselves say that the Vaya can fit 26x1.9" (50/52cm) tires so I'd look for a different wheel set, either in 26" or 27.5".

Salsa Vaya 2015 Archives

The newer Vaya can fit 700x50, but I don't think it is worth replacing yours.

I really like my Vaya, and I regularly ride it on the roads as well as on the trails. I have the itch for another bike, and knowing that I already ride my Vaya year round made me think about when I would not ride it. I would not ride it in the snow, and I would not ride it on the trail right after a heavy rain. That is what drives me to ask the question: Should I be looking for a mountain bike with the "plus" dimension that the LBS describes (either 27.5 or 19 x 3 inches) or should I just go buy a fat bike? And, as described above, the LBS does not have a bike of either type in the price range that I am considering (< $1000).

>>> a SALSA FARGO can do it all but it'll be more work than the VAYA however you will never fear puddles again :giver:

In my experience, handeling mud and snow have more to do with tyre width and tread pattern than diameter of the rims. What is the maximum width your Vaya will accept? Have you tried different type of treading patterns for wet conditions? This will be much the same factors for any bike and tyre dimension as I'm sure you are aware off. As mentioned, I think you should do well if you can fit on 47 - 50 millimeter wide tyres. Nothing is wrong with having a second or different type of bike if you have the money to spend. It will with out a doubt feel different.

OMG, I thought you were one of the most knowledgeable authorities on this forum.

I've had a rigid "Plus" bike since last fall. For certain applications (riding surfaces), it is great. It is a specialized tool, not generally for riding pavement. If you ride lots of gravel, dirt or even mild to moderate singletrack, the 29x3 tires have incredible rollover, making roots, ruts and all but the largest obstacles a minor bump in the road. Mud and loose gravel are but annoyances, quickly put behind you. I bought mine for bikepacking. I think it's awesome. It has a place in some bike stables alongside a full suspension bike, which some use to ride the more "technical" trails, as opposed to the gravel, the dirt and the flowy. There's a whole 'nother world out there, off-pavement.

From what I know about fat bikes, they're for snow or loose sand. That might be over generalizing.

I'd ride something like the Vaya in the conditions that you describe, maybe with wider tires and a bit more tread. In fact my Diamondback is of a similar ilk, though not as high-end as the Vaya.

Though you don't mention winter specifically, I would opt for a separate bike to ride in the snow if you live in a road salt area. The Vaya is too nice.

Don't know what gave you that idea re: bikes and bike technology. I have two, A road bike and a Surly LHT. Road rides, commuting/errands and fully loaded touring both on and off pavement. When I read the term "plus bike" I thought it was something Amy Schumer rides. ;)

That is funny. You ride your LHT off pavement? See? I learned something from you right there. I didn't know the LHT was an off pavement bike. My plus bike is a Trek 1120, so it's not in the OP's price range, but maybe the Surly ECR in 29+ or 27.5+ would be the answer. I have to say that when the road is muddy, sketchy (fist-sized) or loose gravel, washboard or otherwise "non-greenway", my plus bike is a great non-suspension solution. I'm thinking about the Great Divide (at an old guy's touring pace) on that one.

It is if you want it to be. Ever hear of D2R2? It's a mostly dirt randonee ride out of Deerfield, MA. Very hard ride due to the hills and surfaces, which include some cobles. I have done the metric twice on my LHT. I have seen people do it on carbon road bikes, including at least one Colnago. Done plenty of other unpaved roads, including mountain passes, on it.

Sometimes all this specialization seems like a marketing ploy. "You need this bike with 1.25" tires for this type of riding. You need another bike with 1.26" tires for another type of riding. You need yet a third bike with 1.27" for another type...." What I have has taken me where I have wanted to go so far.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cd4221a664.jpg

Fat bikes are a trend now, and so are the pluss bikes. If you can afford to buy and store a speciality bike don't hesitate too much to try it out. It can be a lot of fun. I guess it originated from a couple of guys who built their own frame and experimented and thought it was fun. It caught on and these days fat bike frames tyres are generally availalbe for anyone who are interested. I have noticed a few fat bikes with electrical motor in my area, they roll along nicely on the pavement to and from the trail they are meant for. Some like them.

It's not that long a go a young guy fixed up a steel cantilever Schwinn frame for off the road use. It's an heavy all round frame that turned out to stand up to the job. It certainly wasn't made for off road uses. These days things have moved further along many times and builds optimised for various off the road purposes are available, it has a lot to do with just having fun with it too. I'm just saying, you can work on various types of builds and frames for intended purposes.

Something like tracking down a good set of tyres for special purposes and taking the bother to change tyres can get you quite far when it comes to grip in muddy conditions. This is the type of tyre I was thinking might improve your Vaya in muddy condtion.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...29b1f7af70.png

IMHO, the NCR and C&O aren't very demanding 'trails' They're unpaved, sure, but pretty gentle as far as curves and grades go. I've ridden the entire C&O, including Harpers Ferry to Georgetown on 32mm slicks, so a '+plus' bike or fatbike would be overkill for anything short of a full washout of the towpath, and they usually re-route the trail for that.

I think your issue with slippery / rough conditions is that your Vaya's based on a road bike, nothing crazy with the geometry, but it does have a road bike's forward weight bias. The more upright, rear bias of an MTB, along with wide, straight bars, even with a 'narrow' 2" tire would do more to improve the handling in those conditions than moto-size tires. A short-travel hardtail or rigid (do those still exist?) would give you the bad-surface performance without the speed and weight penalty of ovesized tires.

I wouldn't go super-agressive with the tires unless you plan on spending most of your time off-piste. I used WTB Raptor F/R's for the clay and loam you find on the other side of the river, but you pay for all that grip with increased rolling resistance on hard-packed surfaces.