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Guess I *won't* be going tubeless

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Guess I *won't* be going tubeless

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Old 10-15-18, 06:56 AM
  #151  
Caveman Grog
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Originally Posted by Rayzorx View Post


So Iím one of the ďyou guysĒ that is running tubeless, and I beg to differ with getting a lot of flats.
I purchased a new Giant Defy Adv. Pro 1 in March 2018 and it came with Giantís 25mm Gavia AC1 brand tubeless tires on the SLR wheels. To date, I have put over 3250 miles on the bike.
The original tires were changed out at 1800 miles with not one flat. At that point they were replaced with the same AC1ís but moved up to a 28mm size. I just completed 8 days riding across Utah, and a 3 day/300 mile trip down PCH1 in California. Again, not one flat. I run 100 psi in the rear and 90 psi int the front, and I weigh 145 lbs.(65.77k)

If youíre getting a flat every 1000 miles, maybe you should reconsider the tubeless option.
Iíll echo your sentiments. While it is not a guarantee of fewer flats, since that is dependent on many factors it is that for the majority of punctures, the ability to continue riding means far fewer incidents where a rider needs to stop to repair a flat. That alone is a huge advantage.
One thing Iím noticing in this thread is some people referring to tubeless and then mentioning things like Kevlar bead or running tube or tubeless. What I think may be misunderstood is that only tubeless tires and tubeless rims provide the ability to safely and reliably run without a tube. A standard clincher such as a Conti GP4000 or Michelin Power cannot be used as tubeless since a Kevlar bead will stretch beyond what will stay on the rim and the tires are not designed to hold air. Bead shape of the rims, tubeless vs clincher is also different and a clincher should not be used tubeless and expected to perform the same as one designed specifically for that purpose.
Tubeless tire and wheel systems can and do provide real world benefits but only when compatible products are used in the manner they were designed for. Going outside those design constraints can yield success for some but there are no assurances.
As for tire pressure tubeless tires can be run at the same pressures as a standard clincher but doing so relieved the user of some of the benefits like lower rolling resistance, greater comfort and enhanced cornering ability and feel.
To Rayzorx, Iím heavier than you by 15lbs and run 23 Pro Oneís at 85/90. You might like lower pressure if you have not tried it out. It does seem counterintuitive to what we knew years ago but amazing enough, it works out great.

Last edited by Caveman Grog; 10-15-18 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 10-15-18, 08:44 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Caveman Grog View Post

I’ll echo your sentiments. While it is not a guarantee of fewer flats, since that is dependent on many factors it is that for the majority of punctures, the ability to continue riding means far fewer incidents where a rider needs to stop to repair a flat. That alone is a huge advantage.


There is nothing about tubeless that makes them inherently less prone to flats. It the sealant that is used in the tires that makes them less prone to flats. You could easily use the same sealant in a tube to get the same flat free benefits.

Originally Posted by Caveman Grog View Post
Money thing I’m noticing in this thread is some people referring to tubeless and then mentioning things like Kevlar bead or running tube or tubeless. What I think may be misunderstood is that only tubeless tires and tubeless rims provide the ability to safely and reliably run without a tube. A standard clincher such as a Conti GP4000 or Michelin Power cannot be used as tubeless since a Kevlar bead will stretch beyond what will stay on the rim and the tires are not designed to hold air. Bead shape of the rims, tubeless vs clincher is also different and a clincher should not be used tubeless and expected to perform the same as one designed specifically for that purpose.
You keep saying this but there are, literally, millions of Kevlar beaded tires that have been used, and are still being used, for tubeless. Carbon beads are only a recent development and only on a few tires. Most all of them are still using aramid fiber beads. That's another name for Kevlar. Kevlar also isn't a "stretchy" material.

Originally Posted by Caveman Grog View Post
As for tire pressure tubeless tires can be run at the same pressures as a standard clincher but doing so relieved the user of some of the benefits like lower rolling resistance, greater comfort and enhanced cornering ability and feel.
Originally Posted by Caveman Grog View Post
Not according to many. There are examples given above. Mavic says in this article that tubeless pressures should be 15% lower than tubed pressures. See chart at the bottom of the article.
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Old 10-15-18, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Not according to many. There are examples given above. Mavic says in this article that tubeless pressures should be 15% lower than tubed pressures. See chart at the bottom of the article.
That's not what it says at all. What it says is, "For the use of an inner tube, you should add about 15% to the pressures indicated in the table."

Their pressure recommendations are performance-based, for optimum rolling resistance and aerodynamic profile. Too high of a pressure can give the tire a lightbulb-shape, compromising the aerodynamics, and lending to hysteresis. This doesn't affect most of us, as we are not using tubeless strictly for aerodynamic benefit. A tube in the same tire needs to be run at a higher pressure to prevent pinch flatting, which is something to which tubeless tires are virtually immune.

If you want to talk about minimum required pressures, tubed tires definitely have those, because below a certain point, the tire is just flat. I neglected to refresh the sealant in a tire and rode for around half an hour with about 12psi in my front tire, a 700x28. I've also ridden with a screw stuck in the back tire for about 20 miles. Tire lost 20psi, so I did those miles on a 700x25 @ ~70psi. At my weight, I'm not going anywhere on a tubed 700x25 with 70psi in it.
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Old 10-15-18, 10:48 AM
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[QUOTE=cyccommute;20616996]There is nothing about tubeless that makes them inherently less prone to flats. It the sealant that is used in the tires that makes them less prone to flats. You could easily use the same sealant in a tube to get the same flat free benefits.



You keep saying this but there are, literally, millions of Kevlar beaded tires that have been used, and are still being used, for tubeless. Carbon beads are only a recent development and only on a few tires. Most all of them are still using aramid fiber beads. That's another name for Kevlar. Kevlar also isn't a "stretchy.

You would be correct with respect to the use of Kevlar beads. Rather than just come about with a response I did a bit of research first. Did discover that some companies do go that route by do reinforce the bead for tubeless use. This seems to be especially true of tubeless ready tires. From the Vittoria website...

A tubeless ready bead allows the tire to be used either with a tube, or with just tire sealant (no tube). It is chosen for its unique performance. It locks into the rim wall to provide an airtight seal and ensure easy tubeless set-up, and to optimize air retention (minimize burping).

Vittoria tubeless-ready open tubular (TLR) shares the same production process and properties as the open tubular, with the addition of a stronger bead material (LCP). For optimal safety, this construction is designed to withstand 18 bar of pressure on a standard alloy tubeless rim.

Vittoria tubeless-ready open tubular road tyre selection:
  • Competition: Corsa Speed
I would disagree about carbon bead material being a recent development though. When Hutchinson and Shimano weíre developing the tech in the early 2000ís carbon bead material was used specifically due to its lack of stretch compared to Kevlar beads of standard road clinchers. From Hutchinsonís website...

Road Tubeless

Road Tubeless tires are the height of current clincher technology. Bead to bead puncture protection and a butyl sealing liner, specific carbon beads define this techology. Road Tubeless technolgy was developed as the next generation of bicycle tire. Its advantage are excellent rolling resistance, fewer punctures (no pinch flats) and safer tire. In the instance of puncture, the tire stays on the rim. The Galactik the lightest version for the Road Tubeless family. This is a sub-250g. tire that defines a Road Tubeless racing tire.

Thanks for the lively exchange. Iíll bow out of this at this point.
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Old 10-15-18, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Caveman Grog View Post

As for tire pressure tubeless tires can be run at the same pressures as a standard clincher but doing so relieved the user of some of the benefits like lower rolling resistance, greater comfort and enhanced cornering ability and feel.
To Rayzorx, Iím heavier than you by 15lbs and run 23 Pro Oneís at 85/90. You might like lower pressure if you have not tried it out. It does seem counterintuitive to what we knew years ago but amazing enough, it works out great.
Caveman Grog:
I took your advise and dropped the pressure in the rear to 90 psi as well as the front. It is a much nicer ride.
Thanks!
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Old 10-15-18, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
That's not what it says at all. What it says is, "For the use of an inner tube, you should add about 15% to the pressures indicated in the table."

Their pressure recommendations are performance-based, for optimum rolling resistance and aerodynamic profile. Too high of a pressure can give the tire a lightbulb-shape, compromising the aerodynamics, and lending to hysteresis. This doesn't affect most of us, as we are not using tubeless strictly for aerodynamic benefit. A tube in the same tire needs to be run at a higher pressure to prevent pinch flatting, which is something to which tubeless tires are virtually immune.
Your argument makes no sense. If the pressure given is for performance, it should be the same for tube or tubeless. I'm reading the chart as the maximum pressure (not as recommendations) that the rim can hold with a tubeless tire. The maximum pressure a tubed tire can hold is 15% higher. It doesn't have to be run at 15% higher but it can be run at 15% higher because the tubed tire can hold the pressure better.

Plus the title of chart is a dead giveaway: "Maximum pressure in service for TC or TSS approved contours". Nothing about performance.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
If you want to talk about minimum required pressures, tubed tires definitely have those, because below a certain point, the tire is just flat. I neglected to refresh the sealant in a tire and rode for around half an hour with about 12psi in my front tire, a 700x28. I've also ridden with a screw stuck in the back tire for about 20 miles. Tire lost 20psi, so I did those miles on a 700x25 @ ~70psi. At my weight, I'm not going anywhere on a tubed 700x25 with 70psi in it.
First, there is no "about" 12 psi. It is either 12 psi or not.

Second, you are giving far too much credit to tubeless. Many of us have ridden on a tire that is going flat with less than 70psi in it. Some of us have ridden with a tire at 70psi with a tube in it on purpose. I've toured on tires that I've had to lower the pressure on to that level so that I could ride the routes I had to ride. My touring bike has to carry my weight plus the weight of my gear. That's a lot of weight.

And third, even if tubeless tires won't pinch flat, low pressure in a tubeless can still bottom out on the rim and damage it. I see any number of tubeless wheels that have been ruined because people think that they can ride on flat tires and get away with it.

Last edited by cyccommute; 10-15-18 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 10-15-18, 12:23 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by pvillemasher View Post
I should have been more clear.
What I meant to say is "You guys running tubeless must have been getting a lot of flats with tube tires..."
My point was/is that a few flats a year isn't incentive enough for me to go tubeless, given what I am reading/seeing in this thread. Too much hassle to fix such a small problem (for me).
Thanks for the clarification. For me, this is a new bike and it came with tubleless rims and tires, so I just went with it and was pleasantly surprised at how well they perform. As for being a hassle, I will admit that the tubeless tires are a bit tighter going on the rim, but once on, thereís really no reason to take them off unless you get a real bad cut that the sealant wonít fix. For this situation, I always carry a tube and CO2 cartridges.
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Old 11-30-18, 11:47 AM
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Update

The second pair of Roubaix Pros now have just over 750 miles on them, without incident. I can see no significant tread wear. They have saved me from at least one flat. It actually sealed without me noticing. Some time later I saw a small Stan's booger on the rear tire. I pulled it off before realizing what it was, thinking maybe it was a small thorn. Of course, a bit of Stan's commenced to spraying out of the tire, so I simply rotated the puncture to the 6 o'clock position and the liquid sealer in the tire almost immediately sealed. Very cool!

The tires have sealed nicely. When I ride daily, they lose less air than my tubed tires. If the bike sits for a few days, they lose more air than tubes.

I had mentioned the tires seemed to have more rolling resistance that the 28mm GP4000S2s I'd been running (with tubes, of course). My gut feel is that at the lower pressure, the tires are a bit slower, but not by as much as I originally thought. I will also point out the obvious and say that the ride is much smoother than before.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the tires.

-Matt
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Old 02-14-19, 01:26 PM
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Another Update

I've now got about 1700 miles on the replacement tires. There still seems to be very little tread wear. The tires now seem to lose less air than I was losing with tubes. I've seen maybe a dozen damp spots on the tires over those miles where a tiny bit of sealant has wept out of some tiny hole. I assume most of those would have been slow leaks if not much quicker leaks. I have not yet seen the need to add more sealant.

Still very pleased with the tires.

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Old 02-14-19, 01:40 PM
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I run Hutchinsons 700c-25 tires on my Swiss rims and have never had a problem.
I have also run some non tubeless tires and they did leak through the sidewalls.

ETA...
I did have some stans Arch rims that I used with some 700-30 or 32 hybrid tires. I put them up to 45 pounds one morning and took off for work. About 1/4 of a mile later, one of the popped off the rim. I always used tubes with them after that.

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Old 02-14-19, 01:49 PM
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It looks like tubeless is a lot of hassle...are they worth it.
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Old 02-14-19, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
It looks like tubeless is a lot of hassle...are they worth it.
it really wasn’t much hassle other than the first set popping off the rim. All that’s really involved is cleaning the rim, and then taping it and installing the proper valve. It is a bit tricky adding the sealer without spilling it, but you could remove the valve core and inject the sealant that way. The new tires do take a few days to stop losing air over night.

I dont carry a spare spare tube on my local rides any more. On longer ride I would carry one just in case.

It is nice not worrying about small wires and what not causing flats. I suppose if you hit a big enough nail or screw you’re still going to flat.

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Old 02-17-19, 10:30 PM
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Still going strong

As an update to this thread, Iíve just installed my third set of Gavia AC1 tires on my bike. I got 2200 miles out of the second set. As of March 9, 2019 I will have gone one whole year on tubeless tires without a flat. Call me lucky I guess.

RayK
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Old 02-18-19, 11:31 AM
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Today, the 700x35 Hutchinson Overide TR has been in place on my Ritchey Swiss Cross' front wheel for 13 months and 5,641 miles. It has never been unmounted, requiring no other attention than a sealant check every 6 weeks or so, and one Dynaplug after I pulled out a whopping chunk of bottle glass about 3 months ago. I have recorded zero flats, and have never so much as had to put air in during a ride.

The rear Overide is roughly 4.5 months old, has logged 2,556 miles, and replaced a tire with 3,085 miles. I recorded zero flats during those 5,600 miles, but have had numerous instances of, "got home to find dried sealant all over the seat tube, never noticed during the ride." Number of flats avoided, countless. This rear is fairly worn (I can see the pattern of threads beneath the rubber) and will likely be replaced around the 2,800 mile mark. Neither of the rear tires needed removal for any reason, and performed their entire service lives on nothing more than sealant refresh.

Other bike, Giant Gavia AC1 700x25, front tire will have been in-service 9 months tomorrow, currently at 3,401 miles, no issues. Sealant refresh only. The rear has a mere 4.5 months and 1,627 miles on it. I have not had a tire related issue of any kind since running over a door hinge screw on September 1, 2018 (700x25) and not one but two drywall screws on February 7, 2018 (700x35.) The hinge screw did not result in a flat (rode about 20 miles with the screw stuck in the tire) so I have not recorded a flat in over 10,000 miles.

But yeah, tubeless must be a huge hassle.
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Old 02-18-19, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post

But yeah, tubeless must be a huge hassle.
Well.. to be fair. I haven't seen a 160+ post thread on how to install and pump up a tube tire lately. I would agree with someone upstream who said this is sort of the bike nerd/geek method as most recreational riders just wouldn't want the learning curve for marginal returns.

My thinking for adopting technology is: What problem does it solve, what problem does it create. I list it out on a piece of paper in pros and cons and consider if it's worth it. I think there are some scenarios where tubeless solves more than they create (thorn littered areas for example) but there are also situations where it's futzing for futzing sake. For all the nay saying about old tube tech it's set and forget and remarkably easy to use in the field.
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Old 02-18-19, 01:41 PM
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Iíve said it numerous times but apparently it bears repeatingó if you donít regularly get flats where you live, you donít need tubeless. Itís not necessary. Prior to tubeless, I had two choices: Gator Hardshells or 2-3 flats per week. I basically donít get flats anymore. I ride 10,000 miles a year in the glass and thorn capital of the world, and donít get flats.

Itís not a hassle. Itís dealing with tire maintenance at home, with my bike in a stand, rather than on the side of the road. The fact that people canít seem to get their heads around this is mind-boggling.
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Old 02-18-19, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rayzorx View Post
As an update to this thread, Iíve just installed my third set of Gavia AC1 tires on my bike. I got 2200 miles out of the second set. As of March 9, 2019 I will have gone one whole year on tubeless tires without a flat. Call me lucky I guess.

RayK
I'll add my data point, I have two years on a set of Schwalb Pro Ones (28mm-actually 31mm on the rim), maybe 6,000 miles on that bike, no flats. In addition to no flats, I can ride at low pressure (50-55lbs, I weigh 145lbs) which feels great.
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Old 02-18-19, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Iíve said it numerous times but apparently it bears repeatingó if you donít regularly get flats where you live, you donít need tubeless.

I agree with this as a good determining factor

Itís not a hassle. Itís dealing with tire maintenance at home, with my bike in a stand, rather than on the side of the road. The fact that people canít seem to get their heads around this is mind-boggling.

I might say that's the theory but sometimes practice illustrates other issues as in this case. There is a learning curve to tubeless and when they work they work but when they don't you often have interesting problems.

But again, it all comes down to frequency and intensity. So far I have found the frequency of flats very low and the intensity of patching or swapping tubes to not be that great so almost any tubless set up and maintainence issue creates more hassle than it solves.

However, that's so far and I'm always open to changing conditions creating changing needs.
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Old 03-19-19, 10:54 AM
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I now have about 2200 miles on these tires. The front looks almost new and the rear really doesn't show much wear, either. The rear tires has at least 5 would-be punctures in it, but it doesn't lose any more air than I was losing with tubes. Some mornings I'll see small wet spots on two or more of the holes indicating there is a slightly amount of leakage on those larger holes. For what it's worth, I run the rear at 90 PSI and the front at 80 PSI. I don't believe there are any holes in the front tire. It's been just over 5 months and I have not added any sealant. (Using Stan's Pro.) It's apparently not dry yet, or I wouldn't see the occasional wet spot on the holes.

I have not yet had a flat, nor have I have to add air to either tire during a ride. I stopped carrying a tube and CO2 inflator about 6 weeks ago, though I do carry a small micro-pump.

I'm very, very pleased with these tires. As I've said before, I suspect they have more rolling resistance than the GP4000SIIs I was running before, but I could be wrong. A pair of GP 5000 Tubeless tires should be arriving Thursday or Friday, but I'm hesitant to install them since these are working out so well. And I'm curious to see how many miles I can get out of them.

-Matt
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