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MattTheHat 10-05-18 09:26 AM

Guess I *won't* be going tubeless
 
I found this scene when I went out to ride this morning:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...036732379.jpeg

Gives me the willies thinking about the carnage if that would have happened going 40 miles per hour somewhere. Wheels are Roval SLX 24, tires are Specialized Roubaix Pro. Both are supposed to be tubeless. I've only been running tubeless since last Saturday and neither wheel sealed very well, but that's not uncommon from what I read. The rear would lose about 10 pounds over the course of a 2 hour ride. The front would lose about half that much. Not sure if it's a wheel issue (they're brand new) or the tires (they have about 400 miles on them) or what. Scary stuff.

Anyone know what solvent to use to remove Stan's sealer without removing paint?

-Matt

TrojanHorse 10-05-18 11:19 AM

It's just latex and alcohol I think, you can probably just wipe it off. I got some on my sunglasses when my wife's tire was spitting at me and it wiped right off.

trailangel 10-05-18 11:26 AM

Were do you find info that the Specialized Roubaix Pro is a tubeless tire?
It is not.

livedarklions 10-05-18 11:39 AM


Originally Posted by trailangel (Post 20601707)
Were do you find info that the Specialized Roubaix Pro is a tubeless tire?
It is not.


Apparently some of them are:

https://rideonmagazine.com.au/review-specialized-roubaix-pro-2bliss-tyre/

https://www.eriksbikeshop.com/specialized-roubaix-pro-tire-700x30/pr3e6249/product

trailangel 10-05-18 11:48 AM

Ok

motrheadsroadie 10-05-18 11:49 AM

you can clearly see the 2BLISS logo on the tire next to the chainstay.
ive only had tubeless tires blow off tubeless rims when the pressures were insanely high.

i would say try again, but with a real tubeless rimstrip instead of those veloplugs. and maybe lose 20-30psi.

CliffordK 10-05-18 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by trailangel (Post 20601707)
Were do you find info that the Specialized Roubaix Pro is a tubeless tire?
It is not.

Specialized is marketing a "Roubaix Pro 2Bliss Ready" tire (assuming that is the one the OP has). Need to verify.

I'm still rather new to the tubeless. Only have the front on the bike at the moment (Schwalbe Pro One, Ultegra WH-6800). Maybe 400 miles or so. Not a problem. I tend to let my tire pressures float a bit, but I haven't re-inflated since putting it on a few weeks ago.

I did have to wipe the rim & bead down with pure water to seat the bead, but after that, it seemed to hold pressure for a while before I put the sealant in.

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by trailangel (Post 20601707)
Were do you find info that the Specialized Roubaix Pro is a tubeless tire?
It is not.

I guess I assumed such from the title on Specialized's web site "Roubaix Pro 2Bliss Ready". Maybe 2Bliss Ready doesn't mean what I think it means!

-Matt

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by motrheadsroadie (Post 20601761)
you can clearly see the 2BLISS logo on the tire next to the chainstay.
ive only had tubeless tires blow off tubeless rims when the pressures were insanely high.

i would say try again, but with a real tubeless rimstrip instead of those veloplugs. and maybe lose 20-30psi.

The tire's max inflation rating is 115 PSI. I'm guessing the tire was at around 90. If I rode with the rear tire at 20-30 psi the rim would act like a pizza cutter and I'd be left with a three piece tire. :)


-Matt

CliffordK 10-05-18 12:11 PM

I would hope the Specialized 2Bliss tires would be suitable for the Specialized Tubeless rims. There are apparently a couple of different standards.

I assume you've mounted and removed the tires a couple of times (with tubes?)

However, how about some notes about the mounting of the tire tubeless.
  • Tire size?
  • Pressure?
  • What did you do to seat the bead? Lots of popping during seating?
  • Tools used for mounting/removing tire?
  • Other details?
  • Can you see any damage to the tire?

As mentioned, I'm still a tubeless newbie, but my Schwalbe Pro One has a very snug fit on the rim. The tire has only been mounted once.

I am having troubles imagining how a blowoff like the one above could occur, without taking half the tire with it.

With my first inflation attempt, my bead didn't seat fully. It looked good from the outside, but as soon as I let the pressure out, it started leaking again. It wasn't until I wiped the rim and bead down with water than it actually seated properly. About a dozen little pops as I brought it up to pressure. And, that tire isn't going anywhere. I fear for the day I'll have to pull the tire while on the road.

Anyway, my concern about the OP's tire is that it may not have ever properly seated. At which point, if something happened while the bike was parked that allowed the tire to move on the rim, it just blew off.

Repeated mounting and removing the tire could also stress it.... possibly.

unterhausen 10-05-18 12:13 PM

I think with a couple of layers of stan's tape it would not have blown off. I fully understand why you wouldn't want to try that though.

I have been running 38mm tires tubeless, but I'm a little reluctant to try anything smaller than that because I have heard of problems like the OP had. But at this point, I don't feel compelled to try it either. But the 38mm have been great that way.

jimincalif 10-05-18 12:22 PM

Jan Heine is on record suggesting max tubeless pressure of 60 psi. I don't know exactly what to make of this as there are lots of people running road tubeless at higher pressures with no issues. I have tubeless 38mm G-One All Arounds on my gravel bike, and I want to get a set of carbon road wheels and road tubeless tires for it, but stories like this scare me off. At my weight of 204#, I'm guessing I'll need to run 80-90 psi in the back with 28-32mm tires.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...road-tubeless/

wsteve464 10-05-18 12:24 PM

Tubless works great if done right. It is hard to be sure from the pic but it looks like your sealant has dried out. It should look like skim milk inside the tire. It needs to be checked every 4 weeks or so to make sure it is still liquid if not just add more. Loose the Stans sealant and go with Truckers Cream.

No idea why it blew off the rim tubeless tire or not there is something wrong with the fit of the tire, did you ride the bike with the tire flat?

indyfabz 10-05-18 12:34 PM

The sealant cleans off with water.

I have been riding tubeless for some five years. Never had anything like that happen. I have them mounted (for free) by the shop that built my frame and built it up. I have total confidence the sop and its work.

And word about Orange Seal. I would remove any from the frame ASAP. I got a puncture during a long ride and did even realize it until the day after the ride when I noticed orange tinting on parts of my frame. There is a few light permanent stains from it. My frame is coated with Cerakote ceramic glaze, not paint. Don't know if that played a role in the staining.

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by CliffordK (Post 20601802)
I would hope the Specialized 2Bliss tires would be suitable for the Specialized Tubeless rims. There are apparently a couple of different standards.

I assume you've mounted and removed the tires a couple of times (with tubes?)

However, how about some notes about the mounting of the tire tubeless.
  • Tire size?
  • Pressure?
  • What did you do to seat the bead? Lots of popping during seating?
  • Tools used for mounting/removing tire?
  • Other details?
  • Can you see any damage to the tire?

As mentioned, I'm still a tubeless newbie, but my Schwalbe Pro One has a very snug fit on the rim. The tire has only been mounted once.

I am having troubles imagining how a blowoff like the one above could occur, without taking half the tire with it.

With my first inflation attempt, my bead didn't seat fully. It looked good from the outside, but as soon as I let the pressure out, it started leaking again. It wasn't until I wiped the rim and bead down with water than it actually seated properly. About a dozen little pops as I brought it up to pressure. And, that tire isn't going anywhere. I fear for the day I'll have to pull the tire while on the road.

Anyway, my concern about the OP's tire is that it may not have ever properly seated. At which point, if something happened while the bike was parked that allowed the tire to move on the rim, it just blew off.

Repeated mounting and removing the tire could also stress it.... possibly.

The tire is 32mm. I've only been riding for a few months but during that time I've been on a guest to find tires I like on several different bikes. So lots of practice changing tires. I have tire levers but don't use them. I pull the tire off the rim by hand and install them the same way. I seat the bead using a pancake compressor after spraying both sides of the bead lightly with soapy water in a spray bottle. I fill the tire to about one third the pressure I'm going to run it at and then add pressure slowly while the bead seats. I then check the bead on each side visually all the way around both sides of the bead and then spin the wheel/tire and look for lumps. Using soapy water really eliminates uneven bead seating and lumps. The tires seated beautifully with no problems whatsoever.

Tires were ridden for about 160 miles this week. Front at 80 PSI, rear at 100 PSI. Which is probably too much air. But I hate running with too little air. I contacted Roval before purchasing the wheels and asked about if there was a maximum inflation spec. Their response was that I could use the rating on the tire.

I have not closely inspected the tires yet. I will try to do so tonight.

I can't imagine what could have possibly happened that would allow the tire to do that after having ridden for 160 miles or more. I'm glad it didn't, but it seems very, very odd.

-Matt

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:48 PM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 20601809)
I think with a couple of layers of stan's tape it would not have blown off. I fully understand why you wouldn't want to try that though.

I have been running 38mm tires tubeless, but I'm a little reluctant to try anything smaller than that because I have heard of problems like the OP had. But at this point, I don't feel compelled to try it either. But the 38mm have been great that way.

I don't see how rim tape would have prevented this. If the spoke plugs leaked, I guess yeah, the tire could come off, but there was spray all over the garage floor. Pretty obvious that it came off at fairly high pressure. I have some Stan's tape, but I've got a bad case of the heebie jeebies now. Not sure I want to give it another go. I honestly don't see a lot of advantage over tubes. Especially having them leak down 10 psi during a ride.


-Matt

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:52 PM


Originally Posted by jimincalif (Post 20601822)
Jan Heine is on record suggesting max tubeless pressure of 60 psi. I don't know exactly what to make of this as there are lots of people running road tubeless at higher pressures with no issues. I have tubeless 38mm G-One All Arounds on my gravel bike, and I want to get a set of carbon road wheels and road tubeless tires for it, but stories like this scare me off. At my weight of 204#, I'm guessing I'll need to run 80-90 psi in the back with 28-32mm tires.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...road-tubeless/

Interesting. I weigh 230. LOTS of pressure on every part of that tire when I'm humping it down a hill at a fairly high rate of speed. Even more so when cornering at speed.

Maybe when the tires were put on the original rims the bead could have been damaged. I honestly don't think that's likely, but it's possible. Short of finding some damage on the tires I don't think I'm going to try running tubeless again. Tubes just aren't enough trouble to risk a blow out while riding.

-Matt

trailangel 10-05-18 12:55 PM

I see that they do indeed make a tubeless tire, but maybe you just put too much air into the rear.
  • Casing: 120 TPI
  • Bead: Foldable
  • Butyl wrapped bead = 2Bliss Ready
  • Compound: GRIPTON
  • Flat Protection: Endurant Casing and BlackBelt
  • 700 x 30mm/32mm, PSI 45-90, approximate weight 375g

MattTheHat 10-05-18 12:58 PM


Originally Posted by wsteve464 (Post 20601829)
Tubless works great if done right. It is hard to be sure from the pic but it looks like your sealant has dried out. It should look like skim milk inside the tire. It needs to be checked every 4 weeks or so to make sure it is still liquid if not just add more. Loose the Stans sealant and go with Truckers Cream.

No idea why it blew off the rim tubeless tire or not there is something wrong with the fit of the tire, did you ride the bike with the tire flat?

Sealant was put in 5-6 days ago. It looks dried out because most of it blew all over the garage. What was left in the tire was still liquid.

As I mentioned, the tire installed and seated perfectly. I will check for damage on the bead or elsewhere tonight. I guess it's possible there was some damage elsewhere on the tire and it could have blown there overnight, but I didn't notice anything while cleaning the sealant out of the tire (but I wasn't looking either). I did not ride the tire flat. It was off the rim like that when I came out to ride first thing in the morning.

The only explanation I can think of is damage elsewhere on the tire that expanded and popped over night. Come to think of it, I ran over some kind of ceramic sounding object about three miles from home last night. I circled around to see what it was but couldn't find it. I'll closely examine the tire tonight.

-Matt

cyclintom 10-05-18 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 20601809)
I think with a couple of layers of stan's tape it would not have blown off. I fully understand why you wouldn't want to try that though.

I have been running 38mm tires tubeless, but I'm a little reluctant to try anything smaller than that because I have heard of problems like the OP had. But at this point, I don't feel compelled to try it either. But the 38mm have been great that way.

This had nothing to do with the tape. If you look at the way that the Stan's is puddled it looks like he just put his setup together and hadn't even ridden it once which you need to seal all of the leaks. I'm fairly certain what when the tire was leaking pressure down he pumped it up to 120 psi which on a 32 mm tire would blow it all the way to the moon. Normally you run tubeless at LEAST 10 psi less than you would a tube tire. And I often don't re-adjust the tire pressure for several weeks and the pressure only falls 20 psi below my normal pressure.

I'm really not familiar with Stan's and use only Orange which works a LOT better than several other brands I've tried - one even had something that looked like glitter in it and didn't seal anything.

California has exceptionally horrible roads and the lower pressure possible with tubeless greatly improves the ride. Moreover, the worse the road conditions the lower the rolling resistance will be with tubeless. This is why half of all the new racing tires are now tubeless. On one of these groups I had people arguing the Pro's use only tubular tires etc. A Pro mechanic emailed me directly saying that most of the TT bikes use tubeless because of the reduced rolling resistance. He also said that there was a reason that they use tubular. He said that the "fans" break glass on the roads to slow people behind their favorites. The team cars are forever replacing wheels because of this. Well the roof of a team car has limited space. So using tubulars a team mechanic can sit in the back seat and pull the flatted tubular off and the new tubular on and fill it with a CO2 cartridge. That's why you can see team mechanics leaning out the windows and placing the repaired wheels into the wheel racks.

I only have tubeless on one of my bikes but they perform so well that I'm changing everything over. But like anything else you have to install them correctly or you'll have problems.

cyclintom 10-05-18 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by MattTheHat (Post 20601887)
Sealant was put in 5-6 days ago. It looks dried out because most of it blew all over the garage. What was left in the tire was still liquid.

As I mentioned, the tire installed and seated perfectly. I will check for damage on the bead or elsewhere tonight. I guess it's possible there was some damage elsewhere on the tire and it could have blown there overnight, but I didn't notice anything while cleaning the sealant out of the tire (but I wasn't looking either). I did not ride the tire flat. It was off the rim like that when I came out to ride first thing in the morning.

The only explanation I can think of is damage elsewhere on the tire that expanded and popped over night. Come to think of it, I ran over some kind of ceramic sounding object about three miles from home last night. I circled around to see what it was but couldn't find it. I'll closely examine the tire tonight.

-Matt

Matt - the tire doesn't look like you rode it after installation. Why would the sealant be only puddled on the bottom and no residue anywhere else in the visible part of the tire? Also a puncture of any kind would at worst cause the pressure to go down and not to blow off the rim. That sort of thing is from way over-pressure.

MattTheHat 10-05-18 01:50 PM


Originally Posted by cyclintom (Post 20601922)
Matt - the tire doesn't look like you rode it after installation. Why would the sealant be only puddled on the bottom and no residue anywhere else in the visible part of the tire? Also a puncture of any kind would at worst cause the pressure to go down and not to blow off the rim. That sort of thing is from way over-pressure.

I installed the tire last Saturday and rode it approximately 160 miles since then. The tires had about 400 miles on them with tubes in them. They were definitely ridden after installation.

I assume the residue was puddle only in the bottom because a) most of it was blown around the rest of the garage and b) because the sealant was liquid and ran down into the bottom of the tire. I don't have much experience with sealant. The Stan's stuff is *very* fluid. When it's wet, it just wipes up and is not even really sticky. So yes, it runs right down the inside of the tire.

Immediately before leaving for my night ride last night around 9:00 PM, the pressure was set at 101.5 PSI as checked on my Chinesium digital air pressure chuck. It was also double checked with a digital air pressure gauge immediately after (because I don't totally trust the Chinesium air chuck), which read 100 PSI. When I returned home shortly after 11 PM, I checked the tire pressure with the digital air pressure gauge. I don't remember the exact reading, but it was somewhere around 90 PSI.

Now, 90 PSI may well be "way over-pressure", though the tire itself clearly indicates 115 PSI max pressure. If 100 PSI was too much pressure, I'd sure think the tire would blow whilst riding and heating up a little with plenty of stress on it. Blowing over night at 90 PSI seems really unusual.

When I mention tire damage, I'm not talking about a puncture. I'd agree that a puncture would result in a slow leak. I'm thinking that there may be some dame in the sidewall that cut into the belting material but not through the rubber. At 90 PSI, the damaged belting could have stretched and torn. I would think such a scenario would look something like the picture I posted.


-Matt

motrheadsroadie 10-05-18 01:53 PM

my velocity a23s require two layers of basetape per rim in order for the tubeless to work properly.
basetape builds up on the bottom of the rim making the fit between the bead of the tire and the rim a lil more snug than without.
veloplugs are some roadie weightweenie garbage. they are not intended for what youre doing.
if stans tape makes you a coward, go to your local specialized dealer and get a pack of their 2BLISS rimstrips.

motrheadsroadie 10-05-18 01:55 PM

stans ironcross rims have an absurdly low psi (like 40psi max?) that they recommend not going over because the bead is so shallow that it cant hold a tire at high pressure. it has nothing to do with what tire you use.

MattTheHat 10-05-18 01:57 PM


Originally Posted by cyclintom (Post 20601911)
This had nothing to do with the tape. If you look at the way that the Stan's is puddled it looks like he just put his setup together and hadn't even ridden it once which you need to seal all of the leaks. I'm fairly certain what when the tire was leaking pressure down he pumped it up to 120 psi which on a 32 mm tire would blow it all the way to the moon. Normally you run tubeless at LEAST 10 psi less than you would a tube tire. And I often don't re-adjust the tire pressure for several weeks and the pressure only falls 20 psi below my normal pressure.

I'm really not familiar with Stan's and use only Orange which works a LOT better than several other brands I've tried - one even had something that looked like glitter in it and didn't seal anything.

California has exceptionally horrible roads and the lower pressure possible with tubeless greatly improves the ride. Moreover, the worse the road conditions the lower the rolling resistance will be with tubeless. This is why half of all the new racing tires are now tubeless. On one of these groups I had people arguing the Pro's use only tubular tires etc. A Pro mechanic emailed me directly saying that most of the TT bikes use tubeless because of the reduced rolling resistance. He also said that there was a reason that they use tubular. He said that the "fans" break glass on the roads to slow people behind their favorites. The team cars are forever replacing wheels because of this. Well the roof of a team car has limited space. So using tubulars a team mechanic can sit in the back seat and pull the flatted tubular off and the new tubular on and fill it with a CO2 cartridge. That's why you can see team mechanics leaning out the windows and placing the repaired wheels into the wheel racks.

I only have tubeless on one of my bikes but they perform so well that I'm changing everything over. But like anything else you have to install them correctly or you'll have problems.

You may be fairly certain, but you'd be wrong. The pressure was checked with two different digital gauges which both ready within 1.5 PSI of each other.

The tire is rated at 115 PSI. I don't think 120 PSI would blow it to the moon. (That would take at least 123 PSI.)

Yes, I'm sure a tubeless tire needs to be installed correctly to work properly. You are 100% correct. The same is true for a regular clincher. I'm also pretty sure I installed them correctly, it's really not rocket science.

I'm glad tubeless is working for you, and apparently many others as well.

-Matt


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