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Rolling resistance and weight vs puncture resistance

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Rolling resistance and weight vs puncture resistance

Old 11-04-18, 05:40 PM
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jackb
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Rolling resistance and weight vs puncture resistance

I am replacing the tires on my Trek Domane SL5 Disc. I spent a lot of time reading about tires and finally decided on Schwalbe Marathon HS for the puncture resistance and durability. The other contender was the Continental Gatorskins. The Gatorskins were about half the weight of the Marathon's. I'm riding on 32s. Is there much difference in the effects of these two tires on speed and climbing? Could I actually feel the difference between these two tires?
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Old 11-04-18, 06:01 PM
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IMO, life is too short to ride tires like Gatorskins... or Marathons. They give up ride quality in exchange for puncture-resistance. I don't know what tires you're coming from, but unless they were something like Duranos, you're going to notice the stiffness and sluggishness. I'd rather patch a tube than ride a rock hard tire. But I'd rather spend a little more to not have to do either.

I pay the money and spend the time to run tubeless so I don't have to run heavy, stiff, puncture-resistant tires. You have to give up something to get that flat-resistance-- there's weight, there's rolling resistance, there's suppleness and ride quality-- I choose to give up money.

Short answer: you won't notice much difference between the Marathon and the Gatorskin unless the ground is wet. Gatorskins are like ice-on-ice in the rain.
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Old 11-04-18, 09:40 PM
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Run schwalbe pro one tubeless. It will be almost a lb lighter and will roll faster
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Old 11-04-18, 09:42 PM
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Do you know for a fact that you need extra puncture resistance for usual places you are riding? E.g. if in regular tires you'll get one puncture, say, every 3 thousand miles and in super duper puncture resistant every 30 thousand miles than in theory it is 10x improvement - but in practice it makes no difference at all. Except that you'll enjoy your riding much less on heavy stiff tires.
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Old 11-04-18, 09:43 PM
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I'd go for Conti GP 4000 SII's. While not as puncture resistant as gatorskins, they ride is so much smoother. Gaterskins added more road vibration and I felt every bump. The really made my ride less enjoyable. The 4K SII's never gave me an issue, even with Michigan's crap roads. I'm sold on them. And they're faster too.
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Old 11-05-18, 02:09 AM
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Ditto, @DrIsotope's philosophy. Life is too short to put lead filled garden hose on our wheels.

Only one of my bikes has heavy duty puncture resistant tires, my heavy comfort hybrid which mostly serves as my errand bike now. It weighs nearly 40 lbs with rear rack, panniers, etc., so the 1,100 gram Michelin Protek Cross Max tires don't add much weight (those tires weigh more than some carbon racing frames). No puncture flats in three years, even when I've picked broken glass, nails, screws and radial tire wire out of the tread. I wouldn't want those tires on my sportier hybrid.

I've ridden Schwalbe One V-Guards and Continental Ultra Sport II on my road bike. Both very comparable in performance and road feel. The Schwalbes have a thin puncture shield but I doubt it accomplishes much. The Conti supposedly has no puncture shield I've had fewer punctures than with the Schwalbes -- mostly because the Contis are tougher without sacrificing too much in rolling resistance. Haven't found any reason to put Gatorskins or comparable tires on my road bike. The Ultra Sport II may be the best value for road bikes and sporty hybrids on decent pavement. I just do my part to avoid glass and shoulder debris. One puncture flat with the Ultra Sports, back in the spring -- I could hear the glass tinkle a split second before the pssssstttt!

My main hybrid has recently gone from Conti Speed Rides -- dry condition cyclocross type tires with minimal puncture shield -- to Conti Sport Contact II, with thicker tread and sidewalls and some puncture shield. They weigh about the same but feel very different. Decent puncture resistance, and I can't see any reason to put Schwalbe Marathons or Conti Gatorskins on that bike. I didn't get many flats with the Speed Rides, and most of those occurred within the first two months when I experimented with more off road/no-road riding to test the tread grip and handling -- lots of goathead grass burr punctures, and one from broken glass. None since in nearly two years. The Sport Contact II set have been on the bike only a couple of weeks and seem good. 50-60 psi feels about right for my weight (160) and riding conditions.
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Old 11-05-18, 04:22 AM
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I'd say the short answer is 'yes'. The Marathon is a great tyre if you need that level of puncture resistance but you'll definitely notice the extra rolling resistance.

Life is all about compromise so you'll need to work out what level of compromise is right for you. Personally I ride Continental GP 4 Season - much the same puncture resistance and better rolling than the Gatorskin, better puncture resistance and poorer rolling resistance than the GP 4000 SII.

Here is a use full website that will give you some facts and figures to work with.

My guess is that the tyres that came with your Trek were not very good. Manufacturers put all the money where you can see it on their bikes, and the tyres are an obvious place for saving. Think about what you pay for really good bike tyres and then look at it from the point of view of a bike builder. Would you rather spend £50 on tyres and put, say, £5 brakes on, or would you rather install the brakes that match the rest of the groupset and spend £5 on the tyres. So if you suffered a lot from punctures you'll probably find that getting any half-decent tyre will improve that as well as having noticeably lower rolling resistance.

John
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Old 11-05-18, 07:14 AM
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Rolling resistance and weight vs puncture resistance
Originally Posted by jackb View Post
I am replacing the tires on my Trek Domane SL5 Disc. I spent a lot of time reading about tires and finally decided on Schwalbe Marathon HS for the puncture resistance and durability.

The other contender was the Continental Gatorskins. The Gatorskins were about half the weight of the Marathon's. I'm riding on 32s. Is there much difference in the effects of these two tires on speed and climbing? Could I actually feel the difference between these two tires?
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
IMO, life is too short to ride tires like Gatorskins... or Marathons. They give up ride quality in exchange for puncture-resistance.

I don't know what tires you're coming from, but unless they were something like Duranos, you're going to notice the stiffness and sluggishness. I'd rather patch a tube than ride a rock hard tire. But I'd rather spend a little more to not have to do either
Just yesterday, I posted to this thread, “
Emergency Winter Cycling Kit?
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I also use Kevlar tire liners year round, even on my fair weather carbon fiber road bike, to hopefully forestall flats.
I have pretty good luck with avoiding flats, but I don’t know if the tire liners help.The most frequent objects I recall finding are strand of fine wires as found in car and truck tires, and I think the kevlar stops them. I don't particularly note increased rolling resistance, and I think they are good to have.

In the Winter I ride Marathon Winter studded tires:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I ride studded tires all winter from December to March, nearly entirely on bare, wet, and/or salted pavement.

My first pair lasted several seasons, and may be still useable…

I really like the Schwalbe tires because I don't seem to feel the increased rolling resistance many claim for more aggressively treaded studded tires.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 11-05-18 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 11-05-18, 08:01 AM
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The problem with Mr. Tuffy / Rhinodillos is that while they absolutely do work, they turn most any tire into a lead-filled garden hose. They can be okay in say a Panaracer Pasela, because the sidewalls are so thin, the tire can still offer some compliance. But in most tires, they just succeed in turning that tire into a Gatorskin-- if you need that extreme level of puncture resistance, either consider tubeless, or resign yourself to a life of rocks disguised as tires.

My previous experience is this: I put 6,500 miles on a pair of 700x28 Gator Hardshells. I did not record a single puncture in those miles, and at the end of that time, the front tire looked... almost new. The back tire had just barely gotten through the wear indicators. As I had gotten zero flats in that time, I decided to try something new, and replaced the Gators with a pair of Michelin Pro4 Endurance-- not the fastest or most supple tire out there by any means, either-- and it was like being set free. It would be no exaggeration to claim my average speed went up 1.5mph overall. But it was the ride quality above and beyond any speed increase. It felt like a new bike. Later, when 700x28 tubeless went on, the Pro4s felt like Gators by comparison.
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Old 11-05-18, 09:36 AM
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I rode gatorskins for years and rarely got punctures, so they definitely do that job well.

But as as others have said, they roll like garden hoses. I finally branched out and tried something new and the difference in ride quality was amazing... and I still wasnít getting punctures, so I concluded that maybe my roads were better than I thought.

So so I bought some compass tires, because why not have plush fast tires and enjoy the ride more? Well, i quickly got a lot of punctures, although the ride quality was great while it lasted.

So so what did I do? Converted to tubeless. Now I get no punctures and ride on a cushion. Couldnít be happier, totally worth the money.
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Old 11-05-18, 09:56 AM
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Somebody's got to disagree with the prevailing sentiment or it's just an echo chamber, and I guess I can fill that slot.

I ride Gatorskins in almost any weather (hail, lightning, tornados and snow and ice excepted). I've never had cause to complain about the traction -- wet steel plates, railroad tracks, and paint stripes are slippery with everything I've ridden on. I didn't notice much difference in the ride between Gatorskins and 4000s (back to back switches both ways). The ride is a little softer on Panaracer Paselas, but the tread life is shorter IME. I did notice the Marathons I've ridden were much heavier, enough to change the ride from a lighter tire.

It might be worth noting that on a supported ride in Wyoming last summer, the organizers specifically recommended Gatorskins. Driving to and from that ride, there was a sign at the state line but the road surface didn't change noticeably.

But tires are replaceable use components. Buy one, try it for a few thousand miles, and try something else. Your own experience, once you've gained some, is more relevant to your choices than any of the rest of ours'.
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Old 11-05-18, 11:24 AM
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Thanks for all the responses. I dislike flats so much, that I am willing to put up with some disadvantages in ride. I was just wondering how severe they would be. As I am not a racer and don't worry to much about speed, I can handle some increased rolling resistance. However, I don't want to feel that I'm pedaling a truck. But as one person has said, try them for a few thousand miles and see how they feel. I can change them anytime I like. It's interesting to note that in all the sites I checked there is so much disagreement concerning which tires are "better" that I come away a little confused. I've heard great and terrible things about Gatorskins as I have about Marathon's. But whatever tires I ride on, it's not the end of the world if I don't like them.
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Old 11-05-18, 11:59 AM
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Toured From SW Ireland to NE Scotland (2 ~11/97), without a puncture
having Thorn resistant, heavier tubes, in the tires..
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Old 11-05-18, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jackb View Post
Thanks for all the responses. I dislike flats so much, that I am willing to put up with some disadvantages in ride. I was just wondering how severe they would be. As I am not a racer and don't worry to much about speed, I can handle some increased rolling resistance. However, I don't want to feel that I'm pedaling a truck. But as one person has said, try them for a few thousand miles and see how they feel. I can change them anytime I like. It's interesting to note that in all the sites I checked there is so much disagreement concerning which tires are "better" that I come away a little confused. I've heard great and terrible things about Gatorskins as I have about Marathon's. But whatever tires I ride on, it's not the end of the world if I don't like them.
we all dislike flats. Serious questions: how often do you actually get flats? Are they actual punctures, or do you get the occasional pinch flat? Are your roads in terrible shape? Lots of debris? Or maybe a lot of potholes?

i donít know what your case is, but Iíve found that more often than not, people confuse punctures and pinch flats and end up spending big bucks on puncture resistant tires they donít actually need. I think in truth, if where you ride there is a constant risk of actual punctures, a set of resistant tires wonít offer you anything beyond an undeserved piece of mind. If you ride somewhere with a lot of thorns, like goats headís, I would actually recommend going over to a tubless setup instead of resistant tires. Iím not saying they are bad, I just think most people think they need them when they donít.

I never found gatorskins to be all that effective. I think most people recommend them because theyíre one of the most well known resistant tires. The schwalbe, are probably the best tires short of solid non-pneumatic tires at being essentially puncture proof, but they will absolutely ride like tank tracks.

my best advice would be to do a comparison in this respect: if I hate getting a flat and having to do a roadside repair: realistically how many times, say in the last year, did I get a flat, and were they punctures or pinch flats. If punctures, Is that number high enough to justify particular tires in a cost vs time spent ratio.

if itís worth it, then I would recommend the schwalbes above everything else. But you will absolutely suffer a much heavier, slower tire. If what youíre dealing with are pinch flats, you donít need resistant tires, all you need are larger volume (bigger) tires.

Last edited by seamuis; 11-05-18 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-05-18, 02:22 PM
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Googling it the msrp on your Trek Domane SL5 Disc is $2,699.99.

Tire choice is a "choose 2" situation:
- Cost
- Ride Quality
- Puncture Protection

For that kind of money, no way I would put cheaper mediocre tires like gatorskins or entry level schwalbe marathons.

Max out flat protection:
- Schwalbe Marathon Plus / Specialized Armadillo Elite: in skinny tires for road bikes they're the most flat resistant tires you can buy. However ride quality suffers.
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_t...hon_Plus_HS440

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_t...hon_Plus_HS440
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/al...elite/p/133571

- I was also going to suggest the Specialized Roubaix Armadillo Elite as probably having a nicer ride while also prioritizing flat resistance, but it only appears to come in a 23/25 size? Not sure if that's to skinny for you. That's usually the typical road bike tire size.
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ro...=228363-155299

These kind of tires do have a reputation for riding like you're driving a tractor though.

Wider tire:
- Schwable Marathon Supreme. Smallest size is 32c, and it is really expensive for a tire, but it does everything well. Good flat resistance, rolls well, grips well, good ride. I'm not sure if a 32c would fit on your Domane though? All road bikes will fit a 25c tire, most road bikes nowadays will fit up to a 28c tire, 32c might be to big.

Typical tire for an expensive road bike:
- Continental gp4000 - these are the go-to tire for most people who want to ride a road bike fast. Very fast rolling, very comfortable to ride, very good grip. The drawbacks are they only have decent flat protection, and they have a bit of a "dead" feeling when riding them.

It's kinda hard to describe the difference. The gp4000 rides like a levitating race car. Very fast, very grippy, but sorta...disconnected from the road at the same time. It's not a negative feeling like "rides like a tractor" it just sorta lacks most road feedback.

What I ride:
I started with the gp4000's but didn't like the "disconnected" feeling so I switched to the Specialized Roubaix Pro. It's the most pleasant riding road bike tire I've ever ridden. It's worked fine for me for flat resistance though it only has an "ok" reputation for flat resistance in general so it probably wouldn't be what you're looking for:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ro...=228240-132291

The gatorskins don't have a great reputation - not a great ride, poor traction in the wet, not particularly cheap. I haven't used them personally but nothing I do hear about them inclines me to try them. The Schwalbe Marathon HS's you mentioned are more "if you want to spend less money they're a perfectly good tire" kind of thing. They'll work, but with the amount of money you're spending on your bike I would think that it would be worth it to spend a little more and get a little nicer tire.

I grew to absolutely hate flats from experiences back in the day 10-20 years ago. Flat resistant tires have made a huge improvement since then. I've never actually gotten a flat on my gp4000's for example in 2 years of riding them. I've read plenty of other people have had it happen at some point, but...I mean 10-20 years ago, I'd get 2-3 flats/year. It was rediculous. The invention of flat resistant tires of any level has improved things a ton.

Last edited by PaulRivers; 11-05-18 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 11-05-18, 07:26 PM
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On my Miyata 710, I had initially purchased heavy (410g) Vittoria Randonneur II in 700x28 and they felt dead. The LBS in Tempe AZ didn't have any other 28s in stock. On my next visit out there I took those off and replaced them with Vittoria Rubino Pro Tech III (also in 28mm) and over a quarter-pound lighter at 280g. Both tires have flat protection layer, but the Pro Tech IIIs were sooooo much more lively.
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Old 11-06-18, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
...The gatorskins don't have a great reputation - not a great ride, poor traction in the wet, not particularly cheap...
I think the reason is that Conti haven't updated them for a while. The GP 4 Season has pretty much the same puncture resistance in a much nicer package using Conti's black chilli compound, which has great grip in all conditions. Tyre technology is moving foward all the time and there are some great riding tires out there with really good puncture protection.
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Old 11-07-18, 01:30 AM
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I have Marathon Plus tires on my commuting bike.
If you have a dedicated commuting bicycle, then it can make sense to use heavy-but-bulletproof tires.
With a commuting bike the main thing you want is dependability, and using thick tires doesn't slow you down as much as stopping to fix a flat tire does.

While the Marathon Plus tires are great for not getting flats, they are heavy and rather draggy and they are not a joy to ride. My other bikes don't have them.
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Old 11-07-18, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jackb View Post
Thanks for all the responses. I dislike flats so much, that I am willing to put up with some disadvantages in ride. I was just wondering how severe they would be.
I'm in that camp as well. Dislike flats and dealing with them. Given where I ride, there is a lot of junk on the roads and trails, so flats are very likely. (Haven't gotten one in the past 3yrs or so, so I'm doing something right.)

Myself, I use the Continental Ride Tour tires (47-622 910g, and 37-622 650g). At 910g each (on the 47-622 tires), they're not exactly lightweights. But they have a stiff centerline area that rolls nicely. For general commuting where I'm unconcerned about zippier performance related to rolling weight, for me it's a no-brainer trade. It's a noticeable dip in performance, I suppose, but not all that bad. Depends on one's POV as to whether it's "too much" to bear.
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Old 11-07-18, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
I'm in that camp as well. Dislike flats and dealing with them. Given where I ride, there is a lot of junk on the roads and trails, so flats are very likely. (Haven't gotten one in the past 3yrs or so, so I'm doing something right.)
pardon my playing the devils advocate here, but surely, if you havenít gotten a single flat in 3 years, then flats are not in fact, very likely. So many people say they donít like getting flats, but then will almost always follow that up with ďbut I havenít gotten a flat in yearsĒ. Iím a commuter, I do on average, close to 20 miles everyday. I havenít had an actual puncture in probably 5+ years. Havenít had a pinch flat since I moved from 25/28mm tires to 32mm. I realised I was paying for heavy slow tires, for no real reason. I ride panaracer gravelkings now, and my commute is better for it.

This is why Iím always keen to ask, are you dealing with actual punctures, or pinch flats? To everyone who thinks they need these heavy tires. Because these are very different things, that these heavy Ďresistantí tires donít protect you from.
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Old 11-07-18, 02:42 AM
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Interesting thread. I've never suffered from a puncture but used to have Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres as I was paranoid about getting a puncture. Lately I've stuck with the stock tyres that come with the bike and still haven't had a puncture. That's over about 7 years of casual leisure cycling.

Mind you, I do try to look at the road ahead and avoid as much as I can riding over areas that may cause a puncture.
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Old 11-07-18, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by seamuis View Post

pardon my playing the devils advocate here, but surely, if you havenít gotten a single flat in 3 years, then flats are not in fact, very likely.
Personally I don't agree with this, where I cycle there are quite a lot of thorns and I had 6 flats in 6 rides and got fed up with it so switched my tyres to Smart Sam Plus's and didn't have a single flat on them in months whilst the guys I cycle with continued to get them regularly ... one of the guys had 2 within 10 mins of each other so switched his as well.

I switched to a more road friendly tyre to do a charity ride, 1st time I took them over the same area got a flat and now the charity rides over have swapped them back again.

The panaracer gravelkings I believe have a reasonable level of puncture protection so maybe that's part of the reason you're not getting them, I only know that as I was looking at them and Schwalbe G-ones as a more road friendly alternative to going back to the Smart Sams but recognised I still needed some protection from my previous experience.
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Old 11-07-18, 05:07 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Witterings View Post
Personally I don't agree with this, where I cycle there are quite a lot of thorns and I had 6 flats in 6 rides and got fed up with it so switched my tyres to Smart Sam Plus's and didn't have a single flat on them in months whilst the guys I cycle with continued to get them regularly ... one of the guys had 2 within 10 mins of each other so switched his as well.

I switched to a more road friendly tyre to do a charity ride, 1st time I took them over the same area got a flat and now the charity rides over have swapped them back again.

The panaracer gravelkings I believe have a reasonable level of puncture protection so maybe that's part of the reason you're not getting them, I only know that as I was looking at them and Schwalbe G-ones as a more road friendly alternative to going back to the Smart Sams but recognised I still needed some protection from my previous experience.
I have specifically mentioned thorns, like goatheads in another discussion, and I have strongly recommended the use of schwalbe marathon supremes for this enviornment. So in fact, you donít disagree with me. The main point I was addressing, was talking about the difference between punctures and pinch flats, and the constant talk about flats but then saying they rarely or never get them. What Iím drilling down to, is the discrepancy here between the admitted number of flats vs the number of people who seem convinced, despite experience that they need these type of tires.

no, the gravelkings have essentially ZERO. I only just recently switched to the gravelkings. In the past Iíve commuted on 32mm Clťment stradaís (no protection), and 28mm of the same tire. You know when something punctures your tire. I have no punctures in those tires. Iím not saying my experience is gospel, Again, Iím merely pointing out what people say and what they admit their experiences are.

Last edited by seamuis; 11-07-18 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 11-07-18, 05:24 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by seamuis View Post
no, the gravelkings have essentially ZERO. I only just recently switched to the gravelkings. I
All 3 of the links posted below for the GK's mention puncture protection in the description so unless you've some other sort of Gravelking's **********?

Wiggle | Panaracer Gravel King Folding Road Tyre | Tyres

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Pan...ible-Tyre/EQ4X

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod149455
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Old 11-07-18, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jackb View Post
Thanks for all the responses. I dislike flats so much, that I am willing to put up with some disadvantages in ride.
As do I. Besides, ride quality if more a function of air pressure than anything else. Rolling resistance is measurable but insignificant for all intents and purposes.
I was just wondering how severe they would be. As I am not a racer and don't worry to much about speed, I can handle some increased rolling resistance. However, I don't want to feel that I'm pedaling a truck. But as one person has said, try them for a few thousand miles and see how they feel. I can change them anytime I like. It's interesting to note that in all the sites I checked there is so much disagreement concerning which tires are "better" that I come away a little confused. I've heard great and terrible things about Gatorskins as I have about Marathon's. But whatever tires I ride on, it's not the end of the world if I don't like them.
You won't. There's a difference, but its way exaggerated here.
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