10- or 11-speed
 

Personal preferences? Is it worth it to pay more for a 105 group to get the 11-speed?

What are you doing with it? Racing Cat I, sure. Hitting up the rail trails on a Saturday morning, no.

105 is worth it for reliability, weight, quality, durability, and compatibility. The extra cog is icing.

Only you can decide whether something is worth it to you. After all, it's your money.

If buying new ?, why would you buy 10 when 11 has been the standard and is a much refined group. The front derailer was redesigned for the 105 5800 series, was a HUGE improvement and we are now up to the 7000 series. It's a really great group at a great price for performance. Only and BIG question is if you are using vintage wheels, will they accept an 11 spd. cassette ?

When I was building up a newly acquired frame a few years ago, 11 speed derailleurs and hubs/cassettes seemed easier to buy so that's what I went with. I had originally thought about a double chainset but ultimately opted for 1X.

Go for the 11sp set up. You won't regret it.

Are you someone who keeps your bikes a long time? I bought a Campagnolo 9-speed groupset back around 1997. It started to fail last year and there's now only one bottom of the range Campag 9-speed brifter, and even then I had to change the rear mech as well because the pull ratio has changed. I imagine if you bought 10-speed now you would be in a similar position rather sooner than if you bought 11-speed. Depending how long you plan to keep your bike that might not matter to you.

Seven is heaven.

The 5800 front derailleur has that long arm which interferes with a lot of tires and is finicky as all getout to set up from scratch.
What was that an improvement from?...the 5700 worked fine.

The 5800 was replaced by the 5801 which is an actual improvement as the long arm was removed which improves tire clearance and the JIS screws were replaced with hex bolts.

I absolutely LOVE the 5800 set up on my bike. That being said unless you have 11speed compatible hubs i would stick with 10 speed. Most builds i do for casual weekend use or century rides i prefer to use 9 speed. Parts are much cheaper. Wheel selection is also much wider.

I ride 8s, 9s, and 11s bikes/groupsets. Somehow so far I've avoided 10s.

If buying new, I'd skip directly to 11s, and not go 10s, unless there is a compelling reason such as a 10s wheelset.

If buying used, there is no reason not to use 10s, or to strip and upgrade simply because it was 10s.

Use My Rohloff more than any Derailleur bikes, myself.. it has 14.

5800 is a hella good value groupset.

5800: Meh. I've ridden most of 2018 on two 5800-equipped bikes; the stuff works well, but no more than many other gruppos I've set up in the past. I just sold one of the 5800 bikes, and will likely swap out the Shimano hardware on the other.

I built up a bike yesterday; you can buy a complete Ultegra 8000 setup for about $550, so I was tempted. But I this is a personal bike, so I opted for Campy Record Titanium 10-speed from about 10 years ago. Brilliant stuff. I much prefer the Ergopower shifting ergonomics. The other factor is that all of the Shimano 11-speed cassettes that I can find feature useless 11 and 12 tooth cogs, inferior to the Campagnolo 10-speed 13-26 and 13-29 cogsets. So in effect, the 10-speed cassettes offer more useful cogs than the 11's.

Finally, all things being equal, 10-speed Shimano wheels have superior structural integrity and stability than 11 speed wheels, due to the increased freehub width, and rear wheel dish, and all of the negative stuff that follows from that.

Dura-Ace 7700: now that was a great gruppo.

I really like the Campagnolo 11 speed drive train, but tend to use Shimano (or compatible) 11 speed wheels and cassettes. They just work best for my applications.

And, Campy/Shimano 11s are a better match than Campy/Shimano 10s.

Isn't 12s the way to go?

I've read this over and again on the internet and understand the theory of why.
but still, it certainly hasnt been noticable in my experience(albeit admittedly limited). My 11sp wheelsets have been just as strong and reliable as my 7sp and 9sp wheelsets.

the integrity and stability certainly hasnt been anything to even think of.

wheelsets in 126mm were and are hit/miss depending on how they were built and used.
wheelsets in 130mm up to 10sp were and are hit/miss depending on how they were built and used.
wheelsets in 130mm 11sp were and are hit/miss depending on how they were built and used.

again, its limited in experience, but I see build quality and matching intended use to materials as more important than # of cogs so far when it comes to wheelset integrity and stability.

Look at the width of the 11-speed freehub. It is wider than the 10-speed, and much wider than the old 7. There is only 130mm of real estate on a road hub, so in order to make room for the ever increasing number of cogs, the hub flanges are being made closer together.

The closer the flanges, the lower the spoke bracing angles, and the lower the stiffness of the wheel.

Even worse is the growing amount of dish. 11-speed wheels feature drive-side spoke tensions double that of the non-drive side.

These structural hurdles are now requiring wheel manufacturers to use ridiculous kludges, such as offset rims, 2:1 (G3) spoking, and much stiffer (heavy) rims.

All things being equal (materials and expertise) a 7-speed wheelset can be made that is stiffer, lighter, and have superior longevity than an 11-speed version.

I don't know about Shimano/SRAM, but Campag compatible wheels haven't changed since 9-speed. They just made the cassette and the chain narrower.

This is an excellent explanation and as stated, I understand the theory. I was simply saying that so far the theory hasnt played out in practice for me.
My 11sp wheelsets feel as stiff as or stiffer than my less than 11sp wheelsets. They are the same weight or lighter(depending on what hub is used). And they have been completely reliable with traditional center hole building(so none are offset). I am hardly a featherweight too.


For what its worth, my 11sp wheelsets arent low spoke count rims so if the theories of 11sp weaker wheels apply more to low spoke wheels, that could be why I havent found my wheels to be weaker or flex more. My 11sp wheelsets are 28/32 and 36/36, and both are properly tensioned.

Actually, high spoke count wheels with wide (11-speed) freehubs suffer.

So you understand the high dish of these wheels leads to drive-side spoke tensions being double non-drive side. Not good. But you also need to know that the non-drive spokes have to maintain relatively high tension under rider weight and pedaling torque, which both tend to loosen spokes once per revolution. If spokes get close to going slack, then the wheel is floppy, and spoke nipples start to unwind.

So if the non-drive spokes need to be tight, then the drive side spokes have to be double tight. Simple geometry.

So you need beefy rims that can handle the high spoke tensions, and tension differentials between the drive and non-drive sides. This is why current rims are so heavy, compared to what was common in the 80s, with 6/7 speeds. Current rims are pigs, adding weight at the worst possible place on a bike.

But every 7 years we need to add another cog to the cassette... Progress! Planned obsolescence!

Interesting that more spokes makes the issue worse. Never knew that.
I guess my lack of issues is even more lucky than as I am tempting fate with rider weight and high spoke counts.
Ill keep pressing my luck I guess as my next bike will be with a gravel frame I will braze together that will once again be 11speed. No plans to get rid of any of my 30+ year old frames modernized to 9sp though.

I get the argument again planned obsolescence in cycling. I see it and dislike it too, but 11sp road hubs just doesnt register for me as being planned obsolescence.
- It has helped allow gravel bikes to explode as proper gearing is now used for that style riding.
- It has allowed 1x to become popular in CX(and some gravel bikes) due to the smaller jumps compared to a 9sp drivetrain.
- Furthermore, its not like old gearing was all that great. 52/39 mated to a 12-25 cassette just isnt ideal for many(most?) cyclists. That should be obsolete and the new common setups are what should have been around back then. But again, the jumps would have been huge, so 11sp helps ensure some of the jumps(besides the largest cogs) are smaller.

11sp doesnt require us to stop using older tech. On of my road bikes is a frame from '87, a drivetrain from '89, a wheelset with hubs from '92, and 7sp Microshift STIs. All that stuff is still working great.
Planned obsolescence isnt nearly as big a deal as what many make it to be. This is an industry that needs continual change to generate revenue for companies to stay in business. Auto industry, computers, cell phones, etc- all rely on continual change to generate revenue. If that revenue isnt around, those companies arent around.