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Belt vs Chain

Old 12-26-18, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
For me, it’s all about flat tire issues. I bought a frame with the intention of building a belt drive rig, but after taking a close look at fixing a flat on the side of the road, well, I’m not feeling the love.

Sure, setup and dialing in the system is easy in the comfort of the garage, but achieving similar results at the curb requires too many tools and finesse. Add in darkness and rain, and, count me out. I’m pretty sure breaking it down wouldn’t be too hard, but after slapping on the patch, getting it all back together and functional seems like a roadside PITA.

I’ve considered going tubeless, but that’s not a bombproof option. In fact, it may actually be worse because I’d still have to carry all the tools necessary for a tubeless system failure as well as fixing a slimy tubeless flat on top of the belt drive shenanigans. Solid, airless tires would work perfectly here, but who wants to ride like that? I’m not that desperate for belt drive.

Plenty of people say “it’s no big deal” but they’re not commuting through deep East Oakland. I can fix a rear flat like a NASCAR pit crew on a derailleur bike. I haven’t seen anyone be able to do the same on a belt drive bike.


-Kedosto
Not trying to sound like a broken record, but ... The arched swing arm makes dropping the rear wheel out a snap. The drop-outs are vertical, so no change in tension out to back in. I think belts may be forgiving of some tension loss. They need to be snug, but not tight, so I suspect it could be managed. Especially if there was a lower roller that could be swung back into place to do the final tension ... Sort of like the chain guide roller (mini sprocket) used to prevent chain drops on MTB's ...

Will an IGH fit in a 135mm drop-out width? Do IGH's need a torque arm like the old 3-speed hubs did?

I think If I were building a prototype, I'd see if I could get a planetary geared BB to drive the front pulley. 3-speeds might be enough for much of commuting, except hilly routes like Seattle or SF ...
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Old 12-26-18, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
Plenty of people say “it’s no big deal” but they’re not commuting through deep East Oakland. I can fix a rear flat like a NASCAR pit crew on a derailleur bike. I haven’t seen anyone be able to do the same on a belt drive bike.
I take your point. Sliding dropouts help, but there are still the fiddly shifter cable (s) to attach at the hub interface.
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Old 12-26-18, 09:42 PM
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How does mud affect belt drives?
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Old 12-26-18, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds
How does mud affect belt drives?
It doesn't. Just rinse off the mud with a hose when you're done.
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Old 12-26-18, 10:53 PM
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I've had mine two years. Priority Eight, 8 speed with a Gates belt. The belt failed after a year, maybe 3k miles. Fortunately I was in the city, so I took transit home. Turns out the OEM belt was "for casual use", which evidently doesn't include hauling my 200 pound self to and from work daily. I replaced it with Gates' best quality belt, for about $100. The cog failed after another year, leaving me alongside the road on a cold rainy day. Gates warranted the replacement, which otherwise would have been $90. I think the replacement cog is also of higher quality than the OEM model.

I've had my share of flats. I feel like the argument about fixing flats is overstated, but has some merit. It's a bit slower, and requires belt adjustment when you get home.

Prior to the cog failure, I rode it on a Randonneuring Dart - a 12 hour ride. I'll have to be convinced the new components are much better than OEM before doing anything like that again. In 50 years of cycling, including 1200ks, 24 hour races, and year round commuting, I've never been stranded with a chain driveline failure. I HAVE snapped a chain, on a 600k, but I fixed it and finished.

I like the silence and freedom from lubrication, but I'll seriously consider switching it to chain drive before dropping $100 on another belt or cog.
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Old 12-26-18, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Not trying to sound like a broken record, but ... The arched swing arm makes dropping the rear wheel out a snap. The drop-outs are vertical, so no change in tension out to back in. I think belts may be forgiving of some tension loss. They need to be snug, but not tight, so I suspect it could be managed. Especially if there was a lower roller that could be swung back into place to do the final tension ... Sort of like the chain guide roller (mini sprocket) used to prevent chain drops on MTB's ...
If only it were that easy. Belt systems require high belt tension. Tension levels so high that the belt can’t simply be pulled off or swung out of a dropout by hand. Once it’s put back together, it requires wrenches to reach the appropriate tension. They also require highly accurate alignment between the cogs. Very slight misalignment results in power robbing drag or the belt can creep off the cog. Again, these issues are easily resolved in the comfort of a well appointed garage, but at the curb armed only with the tools I could carry? I’m not convinced it’s “no big deal.”

Perhaps it’s reasonable to assume a temporary fix could be achieved at the curbside, with a revision once back in the garage. Experienced belt cyclists may have insight here.


-Kedosto
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Old 12-26-18, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kedosto
Perhaps it’s reasonable to assume a temporary fix could be achieved at the curbside, with a revision once back in the garage. Experienced belt cyclists may have insight here.
You could pop the tire off the wheel while it's still mounted, if you're planning on just patching the tube. Might take a bit longer to find the hole though.
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Old 12-27-18, 12:07 AM
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The tensioner is built into the frame. Achieving tension is spinning an Allen wrench. Getting the right tension can be done several ways. It would help to have a briefing about it before you started taking the wheel off, but it’s easy to do. I can’t figure how cog alignment would be a problem.

on my bike the tires were stout, the culprit was a too cheap machine wheel build that went taco.

”Overstated, but some merit...” lol BikeForums in a nutshell
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Old 12-27-18, 02:21 PM
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I did not read all the thread. But comparing a belt to chain without considering the whole system is not meaningful. If you need a single speed, you may be onto something. But if you need gears, then you have to consider the whole system.

Example: I dropped 2# switching from disc brakes to rim brakes - because, I could change the fork too...

So the entire belt system needs to be looked at. So far, I can't see it beats an 11 speed chain and cassette. Esp when bringing in the two front rings.
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Old 12-27-18, 06:39 PM
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Seems to me Gates belts have a center "groove" that keeps them in alignment and the pulleys are machined accordingly ... So we have a toothed belt and a self aligning system. Yeah, I suppose you could throw if off somehow. But if you are QR, I wonder how that would happen? Stuff comes apart and goes back the same. Unless you lost a spacer or something ...

My Harley made somewhere around 75 HP and would occasionally pull the front wheel with a stock belt drive. I had the rear wheel on.off quite a few times w/o issue. OTOH, my bud was always complaining that his Sporty rode strange .. So I took it for a ride - you, wandering, feeling skatey, etc.

So we decided to check the rear alignment. We used an old 4' fluorescent tube (they roll and are straight) from front wheel to rear. Yup off. So I grabbed his belt to see what it was doing? Rock hard, no give. Went to my bike, 1/2" to 3/4" deflection with my thumb and middling pressure. Went back to his and backed it off to about the same. 90% of the evil handling went away. The moral here is cogged belts do not need to be nearly as tight as say a V belt. They can live nicely with just enough tension to stop them from "climbing" out of the cogs in the pulley.

And with only human HP input, they could prolly be lightly tensioned by our current standard. I gotta see what Gates actually says about minimum tension ... Looks like 35# is the minimum tension for any of the road bike types. I don't think it would be too hard to get to 35# ... And even if I could not do that roadside, I'll bet I could get some tension into it and ride home w/o standing into the pedals.

Automotive belts run high tension, but they are either V belts or flat belts with tiny vee's. They depend on surface friction. Bicycle belts I have seen are more like chain drives than other types of belt drives

Here's the Gates Tech Manual: Gates Tech Resources

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Old 12-27-18, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BrocLuno
snip
Will an IGH fit in a 135mm drop-out width? Do IGH's need a torque arm like the old 3-speed hubs did?
Don't know about the width; you can look that up. As to torque arms, they're still around, but only on hubs with an internal brake. IHGs without internal brakes use non-turn washers.

I think If I were building a prototype, I'd see if I could get a planetary geared BB to drive the front pulley. 3-speeds might be enough for much of commuting, except hilly routes like Seattle or SF ...
3-speed BBs are available; Efneo makes one. Its gears aren't in the BB, though, they're in a pancake housing attached to the chainring. I can't recommend 3-speed anything for hills; by the time you get it geared down enough to climb, you have no cruising gear.

And we're drifting off topic.
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Old 12-28-18, 08:27 AM
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from cantitoe road
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Old 12-28-18, 08:49 PM
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I once had a bike with belt drive. I think they're kind of cool. To me, the belt's biggest advantages are that you never have to lube it and there's no oily mess when you're handling the bike. Biggest disadvantage is the additional work when removing/installing the wheel (like for fixing a flat). I think the pros and cons of the belt itself are less of a consideration than those of the drivetrain types that it's compatible with, i.e., single speed, fixed gear, and internally geared hub. If you want one of these systems anyway, belts are great. But if you like derailleurs and you're "settling" or compromising for the sake of the belt... NOT worth it. On my bike, there were more things I greatly disliked about the IGH than what I enjoyed about the belt, so I got rid of it. I think I'd really enjoy a simple, durable, single speed bike with belt drive.
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Old 12-31-18, 09:22 AM
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I have a BF Pakit with a Sturmey Archer 4 speed & Gates belt drive. I think the belt is perfect for a folding bike. No chain grunge to foul up the other things in the travel case! Whisper quiet on the road.

To me, this issue of tight belts and hard flat fixes is overblown. I don't think it's much harder to change a flat on the Pakit than it is for my Merlin Road except when I run tubulars on the Merlin.

A Rohloff hub with belt is pretty spendy but I bet it could be set up to reasonably match the gear range on a 1x11 chain system for mountain bikes. A belt on a mountain bike would be wonderful! No low-hanging derailleur to get beat up and no problems with dirty gritty chains... maintenance would be much easier with a belt on a mtn bike.
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Old 12-31-18, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff
It doesn't. Just rinse off the mud with a hose when you're done.
RE: How does mud affect belt drives?

Mud can cause some slippage of the belt which is not a big deal for a single bike, but it can be an issue on a tandem. We have a belt timing "chain". On a muddy gravel ride in Oklahoma a couple of years ago our timing belt slipped. On a tandem this impacts the weight distributions between the captain and stoker. I was wondering why I was missing clean lines I was trying to hit. By the time we realized what was happening, our timing was 180 degrees out of sync. Other than that, I love out timing belt.
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Old 12-31-18, 08:30 PM
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Which Dominates? Belts or Chains?

Originally Posted by alanf
Just curious about belt drives. How do they compare with chain?
Efficiency, Weather resistance, Slippage, longevity

Anything else?
A couple of years ago I learned about belt drive bikes from a fellow I know who has one. He uses it for commuting and its a very pricey rig. He liked the convenience and its "look." It was and is, from my perspective, quite limiting, as he only has one forward speed, variable only through the application of leg power. No cassette or variable gear ratios. No differentiation from the chain wheel side either.

He told me Gates Rubber made the belt, so I called the product manager at Gates who explained a little about it to me. Offered as a low maintenance, long life option for single speed bikes. There were no plans to attempt gearing with the belt drive, and he knew of no attempts by anyone at the time.

If you want to do a lot of riding and one speed is sufficient for your needs, then I guess they are all right.

Properly designed and manufactured drive belts are durable and long lasting if not abused. Gates Rubber Co. is probably the best maker of industrial drive belts in the world. Their premium grade products outlast alternatives by orders of magnitude. They are the only things I use when it comes to automobiles and trucks.
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Old 01-01-19, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by slowrevs
...There were no plans to attempt gearing with the belt drive, and he knew of no attempts by anyone at the time.

If you want to do a lot of riding and one speed is sufficient for your needs, then I guess they are all right..
Singlespeed on a belt-drive is a joy. It's one of the best and easiest use cases.

For gearing, you need something internal like a gearbox or a geared hub. Then you begin to have tradeoffs that enthusiasts such as ourselves will obsess over way more than will a casual rider who just wants a bike in the garage for a sunny day.
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Old 01-01-19, 10:19 AM
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I'm surprised no one has devised an emergency belt or connector to get you home as they have for v belts. Maybe the market isn't big enough?

https://www.royalsupply.com/store/pc...YaAu1BEALw_wcB
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Old 01-01-19, 10:17 PM
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Belt-drive bikes have been sold in Japan for decades. They are used mainly on single-speed bikes intended for light commuting and shopping. Their main selling advantages are easier maintenance and quiet operation. Literally millions of Japanese ride bikes every day, but they are not very good at doing things like oiling bike chains. Every single day I hear bikes going by with it's rusty chain shrieking and squeaking.
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Old 01-04-19, 05:01 PM
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While I am not into it the latest craze seems to be gravel grinding. A belt paired with an IGH would seem to be a good solution.
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Old 01-04-19, 05:04 PM
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Using a belt would get rid of thousands of posts on how to lube your chain.
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Old 01-05-19, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by randallr
from cantitoe road
Image from Cantitoe Road
Point number 1 isn't so obvious now that there are split belt options that work on non-split frames. As far as I'm aware they don't wear down significantly faster than normal belts.
https://www.veercycle.com/
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Old 01-06-19, 06:24 PM
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Wow. Intriguing. Could be a game-changer. For anyone already possessing an IGH it would be fairly cheap to stick one's toe into the belt drive water and see how it goes. No need for a new bike. I'm probably going stick with my Connex chain and stainless chainrings, however.

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Old 01-06-19, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by randallr
Wow. Intriguing. Could be a game-changer. For anyone already possessing an IGH it would be fairly cheap to stick one's toe into the belt drive water and see how it goes. No need for a new bike.
Sorry, belt needs a special frame with a break in it to slip the belt through. Different frame-makers address this issue and tensioning differently
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Old 01-07-19, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Archwhorides
Sorry, belt needs a special frame with a break in it to slip the belt through. Different frame-makers address this issue and tensioning differently
The Veer belts are spliced together and don't require a split frame. They look similar in concept to the emergency drive belts that used to be sold for Harley Davidson motorcycles. Here's a link to a short video showing one of those:


I should try one, actually. I'm curious about them.
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