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What Are The Advantages Of Tubeless and Why.??

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What Are The Advantages Of Tubeless and Why.??

Old 01-12-19, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BirdsBikeBinocs View Post
I use google as little as possible. They're biased, at least.
Ah, that explains everything. You're one of "those."
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Old 01-12-19, 04:14 PM
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Use

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It is even more fun than trolling.
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Old 01-12-19, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
Ah, that explains everything. You're one of "those."
You're not.?? Figures.... I should have known.
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Old 01-12-19, 08:31 PM
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nothing is perfect

Now there is an after market widget to go in your tubeless tires to protect your rim from damage, when your tubeless tire goes flat...

must have been a need perceived ..


REI stocks them..




...

Last edited by fietsbob; 01-12-19 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 01-12-19, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Now there is an after market widget to go in your tubeless tires to protect your rim from damage, when your tubeless tire goes flat...

must have been a need perceived ..


REI stocks them..




...
No, you're wrong.

Cushcore inserts are not there to protect the rim when a tubeless tire goes flat.

You can educate yourself here:

https://www.cushcore.com/
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Old 01-12-19, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Use

www.Duckduckgo.com

It is even more fun than trolling.
As do I - and Bing. As I'm the only one that uses Bing, it is always fast for me.
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Old 01-12-19, 09:32 PM
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I was gonna say-- Cushcore are for those guys running like 20psi in big, pillowy MTB tires. Those dudes are on +30mm wide rims.
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Old 01-14-19, 03:49 PM
  #33  
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For me the advantages of going tubeless were less flats. I seem to be changing tyres/tubes less frequently. I course now that I've said that I'm probably dooming myself to a summer of flats...

A major disadvantage though seems to be price. I feel like between the cost of the tyres, the goop, the wheels, etc. that I'm paying slightly more for my setup than a regular tyre/tube setup. But maybe I'm just not aware of where to get the deals. And if that is the case, hopefully someone here will enlighten me on where to go.
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Old 01-14-19, 04:08 PM
  #34  
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When I lived in cactus country the tires were lined with Mr. Tuffy tire liners and had no issues. Tubeless with sealant is a bonus for dealing with goat heads and similar puncture producing agents, however for most situations it is not necessary.

Don't see the purpose of running 15-20 psi in a 29er tire as traction was not at all horrible at 28 psi. In fact it was quite nice. I'd rather run higher psi anyway as I like the faster roll. I charge a lot to deal with setting up tubeless and fixing them when they flat because it is a royal PIA.
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Old 01-14-19, 04:27 PM
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I run tubeless in my gravel bike because all the cool kids do it. They're cool for a reason.
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Old 01-14-19, 04:42 PM
  #36  
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I smashed a rim and the tubeless system didn't flat.

40 mm tires at 35 PSI. Ran into a pot hole and felt the rim bottom out on the edge of the hole as I exited.

I rode another 16 miles of mixed singletrack and pavement like this. It was still 35 PSI when I got home. I could air it up and ride it right now if I wanted.

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Old 01-14-19, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Don't see the purpose of running 15-20 psi in a 29er tire as traction was not at all horrible at 28 psi. In fact it was quite nice. I'd rather run higher psi anyway as I like the faster roll.
Lower pressure = better grip and lower rolling resistance.

p.s. plugging a flat tubeless tire is quick and easy. Faster than putting in a tube.
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Old 01-14-19, 05:08 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by BirdsBikeBinocs View Post
Wow. That's pretty cool. Can someone tell me what a pinch flat is.?? I honestly don't know.
There's good information here on what a pinch flat is but what they haven't told you is that it's something that can be avoided by using the proper pressure in your tires. Sure, tubeless eliminates pinch flats but so does proper inflation. As an added bonus, you don't ruin wheels like below.

Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I smashed a rim and the tubeless system didn't flat.

40 mm tires at 35 PSI. Ran into a pot hole and felt the rim bottom out on the edge of the hole as I exited.

I rode another 16 miles of mixed singletrack and pavement like this. It was still 35 PSI when I got home. I could air it up and ride it right now if I wanted.

That is a ruined wheel. Good luck on getting it to seal if you have to change the tire. And therein lies the problem with running tubeless at such low pressures. Yes, you can get away with it so you can get a cushy ride but you can end up with expensive repair. I see lots of mountain bikes with severely blipped tubeless rims for exactly the same reason as yours was blipped. I seldom see other wheels...mountain or road...that are blipped because people who use tubes have to keep them inflated.

You can also avoid this kind of damage by unweighting the saddle when you go into that pot hole.
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Old 01-14-19, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
There's good information here on what a pinch flat is but what they haven't told you is that it's something that can be avoided by using the proper pressure in your tires. Sure, tubeless eliminates pinch flats but so does proper inflation.
One of the advantages of a tubeless setup is that the proper pressure is lower than the same setup with a tube.
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Old 01-15-19, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
One of the advantages of a tubeless setup is that the proper pressure is lower than the same setup with a tube.
No, tubeless have to be run at lower pressure due to the physics of how the tire and bead interact. That's not necessarily an "advantage". If the result is a higher likelihood of damaged rims, that's not an advantage.

The cushcore product you linked to illustrates a number of problems with tubeless that can be solved by adding what is essentially a solid tire inside the tubeless one.
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Old 01-15-19, 09:13 AM
  #41  
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As far as road bike tires/rims; how do tubeless tires and current spec lightweight rims compare to an old set of Mavic GL330s (or the modern equivalent) with modern light weight competition tubulars as far as overall weight?
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Old 01-15-19, 09:20 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
No, tubeless have to be run at lower pressure due to the physics of how the tire and bead interact.
That's false.

I can run my tubeless MTB tires at 20 psi, 28 psi,40 psi, etc. The difference between those pressures will be the varying amount of grip and rolling resistance (including the increased deflection associated with higher pressures).

I can run my gravel tires at 35, 45, 60 psi The difference between those pressures will be the varying amount of grip and rolling resistance (including the increased deflection associated with higher pressures).

My kid runs his 26mm tubeless road tires at 95psi. The manufacturer lists the psi range at 90-115.

Re: Cushcore

Never used it and haven't ever encountered the "problems"/marketing talking points that they describe.
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Old 01-15-19, 09:48 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
That's false.
If it is "false" then why did you say it? You are the one that said "the proper pressure is lower than the same setup with a tube." This article backs that up and states quite clearly that the tubeless pressure is 85% of the tubed pressure. They don't give the reason behind it but it's because the tube increases friction and holds the bead in place while only pressure holds a tubeless bead in place.

Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
I can run my tubeless MTB tires at 20 psi, 28 psi,40 psi, etc. The difference between those pressures will be the varying amount of grip and rolling resistance (including the increased deflection associated with higher pressures).

I can run my gravel tires at 35, 45, 60 psi The difference between those pressures will be the varying amount of grip and rolling resistance (including the increased deflection associated with higher pressures).
And that says what? I can run tubed tires at the same pressure for the same reasons. I choose not to because I value my wheels. I also don't find flat tires...and 20psi is definitely "flat"...all that enjoyable to ride. I most assuredly don't find the rolling resistance to decrease at 20psi over 40 psi. I don't think you can find a chart that would say that nor is riding at 20 psi done to decrease rolling resistance on mountain bikes. More grip is more rolling resistance.

Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
Re: Cushcore

Never used it and haven't ever encountered the "problems"/marketing talking points that they describe.
Many people have. Burped tires and blipped rims are things I've seen on many tubeless rims. TimothyH's rim damage above is a very good example of a common tubeless problem...mostly caused by riding flat tires.
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Old 01-15-19, 10:10 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
If it is "false" then why did you say it? You are the one that said "the proper pressure is lower than the same setup with a tube."

I didn't say "tubeless have to be run at lower pressure due to the physics of how the tire and bead interact"


I merely noted that the proper pressure (i.e. the best pressure in terms of grip and rolling resistance) is lower for a tubeless setup. That's because you can run tubeless at lower pressures without snake biting.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
And that says what?
It refutes your crazy claim that tubeless tires "Have to be run at lower pressures."

As does the fact that my kid's tubeless road tires don't have to be run at lower pressures.

etc. etc.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I can run tubed tires at the same pressure for the same reasons. I choose not to because I value my wheels. I also don't find flat tires...and 20psi is definitely "flat"...all that enjoyable to ride. I most assuredly don't find the rolling resistance to decrease at 20psi over 40 psi. I don't think you can find a chart that would say that nor is riding at 20 psi done to decrease rolling resistance on mountain bikes. More grip is more rolling resistance.
This paragraph highlights your myopia when it comes to tubeless setups, and mountain biking as well.

My tubeless 32c tires may be "flat" at 20 psi yet my 2.5 tubeless MTB tires on 35 id rims, at my weight, are far from flat. They're very enjoyable to ride with less rolling resistance (tire conforms to trail irregularities rather than deflecting). In many years of pounding through the chunk at speed I've never had a rim strike at 20 psi, or lower.

What you apparently fail to understand is that tubeless psi, like tubed psi, really depends on rim width, tire size/volume, casing type, and rider weight.

That's why the manufacturer of my 700c gravel rims recommends starting tubeless psi of between 18-67 psi. Those variations vary by weight and tire volume.

Last edited by balut bandit; 01-15-19 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-15-19, 10:46 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
There's good information here on what a pinch flat is but what they haven't told you is that it's something that can be avoided by using the proper pressure in your tires. Sure, tubeless eliminates pinch flats but so does proper inflation. As an added bonus, you don't ruin wheels like below.

That is a ruined wheel. Good luck on getting it to seal if you have to change the tire. And therein lies the problem with running tubeless at such low pressures. Yes, you can get away with it so you can get a cushy ride but you can end up with expensive repair. I see lots of mountain bikes with severely blipped tubeless rims for exactly the same reason as yours was blipped. I seldom see other wheels...mountain or road...that are blipped because people who use tubes have to keep them inflated.

You can also avoid this kind of damage by unweighting the saddle when you go into that pot hole.
I'm not sure where you are getting this information Stuart, but much if not all of it simply isn't the case.

It is true that the wheel is ruined. ProWheelBuilder is lacing a new rim this afternoon.

Given the hole, no amount of unweighting would have saved this wheel. I noticed last night that the highway dept had filled the hole. I wanted to get a photo.

Mountain bikers wheels are dented because they beat the crud out of their bikes - jump off cliffs, run into rocks, etc. I ride this bike hard and am surprised the wheels have lasted as long as it has.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 01-15-19 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 01-15-19, 09:54 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
I didn't say "tubeless have to be run at lower pressure due to the physics of how the tire and bead interact"


I merely noted that the proper pressure (i.e. the best pressure in terms of grip and rolling resistance) is lower for a tubeless setup. That's because you can run tubeless at lower pressures without snake biting.
Perhaps that is because you donít understand the physics of the tire/bead interaction. Mavicís information on tubeless requiring 15% lower pressures says that they understand the physics quite well. Snake bites are secondary. The mechanism for snake bites is still there but there isnít a tube to absorb them...the rim does. Iíd much prefer repairing a snake bite than repairing a wheel. One costs a few pennies, the other doesnít.

It refutes your crazy claim that tubeless tires "Have to be run at lower pressures."
I can run the same pressures as you can. I have a slightly higher risk of pinch flats with a tubed tire but only slightly. I donít run those kinds of pressures for the reasons given above. I value my wheels more than I value my tubes

This paragraph highlights your myopia when it comes to tubeless setups, and mountain biking as well.

My tubeless 32c tires may be "flat" at 20 psi yet my 2.5 tubeless MTB tires on 35 id rims, at my weight, are far from flat. They're very enjoyable to ride with less rolling resistance (tire conforms to trail irregularities rather than deflecting). In many years of pounding through the chunk at speed I've never had a rim strike at 20 psi, or lower.

What you apparently fail to understand is that tubeless psi, like tubed psi, really depends on rim width, tire size/volume, casing type, and rider weight.

That's why the manufacturer of my 700c gravel rims recommends starting tubeless psi of between 18-67 psi. Those variations vary by weight and tire volume.
Yes, the pressure certainly depends on a number of factors. Not damaging the wheels is very, very, very high on the list. I would put it at the top spot. If I canít ride becuase the wheels are damaged, that has a really detrimental impact on my over all speed. Lower on the list is a tire that squirms and wallows. Riding at 20 psi on mountain bike for me​ has never been a pleasant experience. It might help on climbing...marginally...but itís not all that confidence inspiring anywhere else. It also damages the tire side walls.​​​​​​
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Old 01-15-19, 10:11 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Given the hole, no amount of unweighting would have saved this wheel. I noticed last night that the highway dept had filled the hole. I wanted to get a photo.

Mountain bikers wheels are dented because they beat the crud out of their bikes - jump off cliffs, run into rocks, etc. I ride this bike hard and am surprised the wheels have lasted as long as it has.


-Tim-
Iíve hit lots of holes in lots of situations including hitting a bridge drain hole on US52 near Ironton, OH at about 20mph on a loaded touring bike. The last time I blipped a rim due to impact was about 30 years ago when I miss judged a curb hop, bottomed out the tire and bent the rim. I didnít even flat the tire...so much for snake bites. Since then I have ridden a lot of miles and destroyed a lot of wheels but none of them have been been due to impacts.

I also see a lot of wheels...hundreds to thousands per year...at my local co-op. Few of the mountain bike rims that have been used with tubed tires have damaged rims...some but not a lot. On the other hand, most of the tubeless mountain bike rims I see are indeed ďbeat to crudĒ.

And, to be clear, Iím not a timid rider. I bomb downhills as fast as Iím able.
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Old 01-16-19, 08:08 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
That is a ruined wheel.
The owner of prowheelbuilder.com was able to salvage the rim by working the metal.

It is in my garage holding 50 PSI since 5:00 PM yesterday.


-Tim-
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Old 01-16-19, 08:29 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by balut bandit View Post
Lower pressure = lower rolling resistance.

.
Can you support that assertion?
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Old 01-16-19, 09:10 AM
  #50  
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This thread is a wealth of misinformation about tires and wheels in general and tubeless in particular.

I would encourage the OP to speak with individuals who actually ride tubeless day in and day out.


-Tim-
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