Why do some people refer to some bicycles as BSO?
02-11-19, 04:59 PM
#226
Banned
Not every machine can be fixed... in fact many machines nowadays are made so they cannot even be opened once they are manufactured.
I have a ton of burnt-out coffee-makers that were glued and riveted shut so a person had to literally break the device to open it up to eve see if it could be fixed. (I used to drink a lot of coffee.)
There are No spare or replacement parts offered for those devices. They are so cheap, just buy another one, seems to be the thinking---which I find offensive, but whatever.
Really bad BSOs are the same. Really cheap plastic or pot-metal levers, bearing cups, retaining bolts .... just really cheap parts, and no replacements available. The only option is to do what i did, and scavenge dozens of BSOs, or upgrade to real parts ... which costs a lot of money, way more than the bike costs originally. Weak rims with bad bearings, cheap headsets and bottom brackets maybe not particularly carefully inserted and maybe not properly lubricated, cheap bendable/breakable levers which will break if you try to bend them straight ... I even had a chain ring snap off a one-piece Ashtabula crank while crossing an intersection ....
So all I have to do is buy a $150 bike, then two new wheels, a new front and rear derailleur, a new BB, a new headset, and new levers ... plus the saddle, which I would expect to replace ..... and now I have $400 worth of parts on an overweight frame. And if I had to buy the tools to do the work, there is another $100. Why not just buy a $600 bike?
And please don't tell me about all this unless you have Actually Done This ... because I Did. i scavenged and rebuilt BSOs, dumpster-dived behind bike shops, bought batches of spare parts, scrounged yard sales ....
Sure, if you buy a broom and replace the bristles and then the handle, you have "fixed" the broom ... right? The only way to "fix" some BSOs is to constantly pump in cheap parts, or buy a bunch of real parts ... but the only sensible way, economically, to get all those good parts is to buy a good bike---which is what I did as soon as i had saved up enough money.
I don't look down on people who ride Any bike, whether it be a $16,000 bling-machine or a $99 Walmart BSO. I also don't think either bike says anything about the rider necessarily. I also know form experience that for a person who wants to ride vigorously every day, a BSO is a money-losing proposition.
And for all those folks who bought bSOs and made them last ... cool. I could have bought a Yugo and babied it for 35 years so i could still be driving it slowly today. it would still be a piece of crap communist copy of an old Fiat, but I could have kept it running if i was interested.
Nothing against people who have made that choice.
I rode BSOs for several years while I went from near zero to being able to afford a couple of good bikes. i don't regret the experience, I learned a lot about roadside wrenching, I walked home carrying a broken bike more than i would have wanted but not as often as some might imagine .... and I would never buy a BSO again, because the best they can ever be will never be worth what it costs to be that.
Well ... I Hope I never buy another BSO. if my personal economy were to tank, i would start hitting the rash heaps and yard sales totally without shame ... and I would ride BSOs ... until I had saved enough for a bike which was strong and reliable, just like I did last time.
I have a ton of burnt-out coffee-makers that were glued and riveted shut so a person had to literally break the device to open it up to eve see if it could be fixed. (I used to drink a lot of coffee.)
There are No spare or replacement parts offered for those devices. They are so cheap, just buy another one, seems to be the thinking---which I find offensive, but whatever.
Really bad BSOs are the same. Really cheap plastic or pot-metal levers, bearing cups, retaining bolts .... just really cheap parts, and no replacements available. The only option is to do what i did, and scavenge dozens of BSOs, or upgrade to real parts ... which costs a lot of money, way more than the bike costs originally. Weak rims with bad bearings, cheap headsets and bottom brackets maybe not particularly carefully inserted and maybe not properly lubricated, cheap bendable/breakable levers which will break if you try to bend them straight ... I even had a chain ring snap off a one-piece Ashtabula crank while crossing an intersection ....
So all I have to do is buy a $150 bike, then two new wheels, a new front and rear derailleur, a new BB, a new headset, and new levers ... plus the saddle, which I would expect to replace ..... and now I have $400 worth of parts on an overweight frame. And if I had to buy the tools to do the work, there is another $100. Why not just buy a $600 bike?
And please don't tell me about all this unless you have Actually Done This ... because I Did. i scavenged and rebuilt BSOs, dumpster-dived behind bike shops, bought batches of spare parts, scrounged yard sales ....
Sure, if you buy a broom and replace the bristles and then the handle, you have "fixed" the broom ... right? The only way to "fix" some BSOs is to constantly pump in cheap parts, or buy a bunch of real parts ... but the only sensible way, economically, to get all those good parts is to buy a good bike---which is what I did as soon as i had saved up enough money.
I don't look down on people who ride Any bike, whether it be a $16,000 bling-machine or a $99 Walmart BSO. I also don't think either bike says anything about the rider necessarily. I also know form experience that for a person who wants to ride vigorously every day, a BSO is a money-losing proposition.
And for all those folks who bought bSOs and made them last ... cool. I could have bought a Yugo and babied it for 35 years so i could still be driving it slowly today. it would still be a piece of crap communist copy of an old Fiat, but I could have kept it running if i was interested.
Nothing against people who have made that choice.
I rode BSOs for several years while I went from near zero to being able to afford a couple of good bikes. i don't regret the experience, I learned a lot about roadside wrenching, I walked home carrying a broken bike more than i would have wanted but not as often as some might imagine .... and I would never buy a BSO again, because the best they can ever be will never be worth what it costs to be that.
Well ... I Hope I never buy another BSO. if my personal economy were to tank, i would start hitting the rash heaps and yard sales totally without shame ... and I would ride BSOs ... until I had saved enough for a bike which was strong and reliable, just like I did last time.
02-11-19, 05:00 PM
#227
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I suggest that you do not disagree with cyclocommute.
I find that it rarely is worth my time. That user will tell you how your bicycle is (or how life is) without having owned one (or having lived there.)
Best to not engage as the fruits of your labour will be minimal at best.
I find that it rarely is worth my time. That user will tell you how your bicycle is (or how life is) without having owned one (or having lived there.)
Best to not engage as the fruits of your labour will be minimal at best.
Incorrect.
19" Denali
19" Denali
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Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-11-19, 05:03 PM
#228
Banned
I have been to Europe and I have been to bicycle shops in Europe. They have service bays just like American shops and they offer mechanical services. They kind of have to have mechanical services if they are going to be even just a point of sale since they have to assemble the bikes. A proper shop assembly isn't like the kind of assembly that you'll get at HelMart.
Not everyone in the US goes to a shop to fix their bikes either. Many do it at home or at co-ops. The 1500 people that I see is per year. I've been doing this for 10 years. Yes, my co-op is the only one in Denver but there are other co-ops in Colorado and many of them throughout the US. People here work on their bikes just as much as Europeans do.
You don't get to set limits on discussion. As I recall, you really didn't do much bicycling until you went to Europe so it's not like you have a lot of experience on this side of the Pond that you can draw on to make an argument that is "two-sided".
Not everyone in the US goes to a shop to fix their bikes either. Many do it at home or at co-ops. The 1500 people that I see is per year. I've been doing this for 10 years. Yes, my co-op is the only one in Denver but there are other co-ops in Colorado and many of them throughout the US. People here work on their bikes just as much as Europeans do.
You don't get to set limits on discussion. As I recall, you really didn't do much bicycling until you went to Europe so it's not like you have a lot of experience on this side of the Pond that you can draw on to make an argument that is "two-sided".
Sorry, mate, you need a reality check. I commuted every day in Texas for 7 years. I think you need to check your facts and get a little more diverse before making sweeping commentary without the real-world experience to back it up. I also cycled at a university in Maine but that was standard campus fare so I don't count that.
02-11-19, 05:07 PM
#229
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Also ... I have to wonder if the BSO-type bikes sold in Europe aren't a bit better out of the box than the U.S. versions. because Europe has a much stronger cycling culture, a bike which didn't stand up wouldn't sell. A lot of people buy BSOs here either for growing kids, in which case they expect to replace the bike every couple years, or people who simply cannot afford one penny more and don't have any expectations of getting a decent bike because they have no context .... all they have ever seen are garbage bikes.
I know bikes used to be handed down through families ... nowadays i would be surprised to see most BSOs last three seasons. But maybe Europe has held closer to the standards that the U.S. used to have, where 'cheap" bikes were just simply, sturdy, unflashy bikes---the types which Could be passed down through three children as each outgrew it. In a culture where a lot of people ride bikes a lot, a modern Walmart bike wouldn't make it because those people are serious--they aren't riding to show the their friends at school their plastic MTBs, but to actually go places by bike---something which doesn't much happen in the U.S. (When I see kids biking for transport in the u.S. it is either Mormons, or high-school kids generally riding BMX/urban assault bikes.)
I haven't lived in Europe long enough to have an informed opinion--but those who do, seem to be saying that the basic Euro bike offerings are more sturdy and more practical. I can see how that would be---but most pf the folks on this site seem to ideologically wedded to one point of view or another, so no one has actually done a breakdown on the most basic Euro bikes versus the $99 Walmart offerings.
I know bikes used to be handed down through families ... nowadays i would be surprised to see most BSOs last three seasons. But maybe Europe has held closer to the standards that the U.S. used to have, where 'cheap" bikes were just simply, sturdy, unflashy bikes---the types which Could be passed down through three children as each outgrew it. In a culture where a lot of people ride bikes a lot, a modern Walmart bike wouldn't make it because those people are serious--they aren't riding to show the their friends at school their plastic MTBs, but to actually go places by bike---something which doesn't much happen in the U.S. (When I see kids biking for transport in the u.S. it is either Mormons, or high-school kids generally riding BMX/urban assault bikes.)
I haven't lived in Europe long enough to have an informed opinion--but those who do, seem to be saying that the basic Euro bike offerings are more sturdy and more practical. I can see how that would be---but most pf the folks on this site seem to ideologically wedded to one point of view or another, so no one has actually done a breakdown on the most basic Euro bikes versus the $99 Walmart offerings.
02-11-19, 05:09 PM
#230
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I almost missed that ... yeah, the cups seal to the frame and when they come out (18" ratchet handle and a 30" metal tube) they often take the threads with them. The cranks get loose, round out the cheap spindles, you want to replace them ... but good luck if the cups were installed with no lube, because the frame will self-destruct.
Still "fixable." I have a couple "repair" threaded-together square-taper bottom brackets on my shelf right now. So ... just tear the old set-up apart, buy a new crank set and repair bottom bracket .... you can do it all for about $60 ... for a $100 bike which still has major issues.
Still "fixable." I have a couple "repair" threaded-together square-taper bottom brackets on my shelf right now. So ... just tear the old set-up apart, buy a new crank set and repair bottom bracket .... you can do it all for about $60 ... for a $100 bike which still has major issues.
Additionally, it would be debatable if pulling out the threads in the bottom bracket shell would be "fixable". If there is nothing to thread into or if you can't thread in a new cup because the threads are buggered, the frame is
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-11-19, 05:14 PM
#231
Banned
Here is a European BSO for €165 at a large supermarket (HEB in the southern US or Market Basket in the northeast US).
https://www.real.de/product/320114076/
Here's the list from REAL (price upward up to about €2000 for an e-bike).
Remember that 19% of that price is tax.
https://www.real.de/category/43011/r...rtby=price-asc
https://www.real.de/product/320114076/
Here's the list from REAL (price upward up to about €2000 for an e-bike).
Remember that 19% of that price is tax.
https://www.real.de/category/43011/r...rtby=price-asc
02-11-19, 05:28 PM
#232
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I haven't lived in Europe long enough to have an informed opinion--but those who do, seem to be saying that the basic Euro bike offerings are more sturdy and more practical. I can see how that would be---but most pf the folks on this site seem to ideologically wedded to one point of view or another, so no one has actually done a breakdown on the most basic Euro bikes versus the $99 Walmart offerings.
HelMart probably doesn't even make that much on their bikes even with a (likely) larger mark up and their nickel and dimeing the suppliers. That's why HelMart bikes are of such poor quality.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 02-11-19 at 06:06 PM.
02-11-19, 05:49 PM
#233
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02-11-19, 05:49 PM
#234
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Here is a European BSO for €165 at a large supermarket (HEB in the southern US or Market Basket in the northeast US).
https://www.real.de/product/320114076/
Here's the list from REAL (price upward up to about €2000 for an e-bike).
Remember that 19% of that price is tax.
https://www.real.de/category/43011/r...rtby=price-asc
https://www.real.de/product/320114076/
Here's the list from REAL (price upward up to about €2000 for an e-bike).
Remember that 19% of that price is tax.
https://www.real.de/category/43011/r...rtby=price-asc
Is That the kind of bike you see a lot of Euro commuters riding everywhere for years at a time? Does Real sell replacement fender mounts?
Something like this (https://www.real.de/product/323269638/) or this (https://www.real.de/product/325435163/) look to be a lot more practical for general riding and commuting.
02-11-19, 05:58 PM
#235
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[QUOTE=BrocLuno;20790134]So Wal-Marts Hyper Carbon X is a BSO ...
But would most people find it more practical to buy an $800 hybrid to start with?
What sort of tools would you need to do the work? What sort of expertise? And how many hours would you have to spend shopping EBay for the right parts at the right price to show up? having gone that route myself, I know it can be time-intensive--not hours per day, but an hour or two Every day, to get the good deals as soon as they show up.
The fact that you could strip the frame, and would know which parts to buy and where, and how to assemble them, removes you from the realm of the general buying public.
Say--Have you actually bought and rebuilt that bike? So ... what did you need to replace? Did you keep anything besides the frame and fork? Did you even keep the fork? And what did you spend parts And Labor for the $600 upgrade (parts alone.)
Even at minimum wage you've got another few hundred dollars in ... which means now you are comparing it to a $1000 hybrid. And Maybe you could get it that cheap and that light ... if you haven't done it ..... who knows?
And in any case ... as it comes, out of the box ... good enough for you?
A skilled mechanic with a well-equipped shop could keep a Yugo running for 35 years ... most people couldn't keep them together for 3.5 years.
A person could buy an old Pinto, build a tube frame, swap in a Mustang II front end and a 4-link rear suspension, drop in a turbo Eco-Boost V6, add a roll cage and two racing seats, fire extinguisher, electronic engine management, fuel cell .... doesn't mean the old Pinto was worth anything but scrap.
What sort of tools would you need to do the work? What sort of expertise? And how many hours would you have to spend shopping EBay for the right parts at the right price to show up? having gone that route myself, I know it can be time-intensive--not hours per day, but an hour or two Every day, to get the good deals as soon as they show up.
The fact that you could strip the frame, and would know which parts to buy and where, and how to assemble them, removes you from the realm of the general buying public.
Say--Have you actually bought and rebuilt that bike? So ... what did you need to replace? Did you keep anything besides the frame and fork? Did you even keep the fork? And what did you spend parts And Labor for the $600 upgrade (parts alone.)
Even at minimum wage you've got another few hundred dollars in ... which means now you are comparing it to a $1000 hybrid. And Maybe you could get it that cheap and that light ... if you haven't done it ..... who knows?
And in any case ... as it comes, out of the box ... good enough for you?
A skilled mechanic with a well-equipped shop could keep a Yugo running for 35 years ... most people couldn't keep them together for 3.5 years.
A person could buy an old Pinto, build a tube frame, swap in a Mustang II front end and a 4-link rear suspension, drop in a turbo Eco-Boost V6, add a roll cage and two racing seats, fire extinguisher, electronic engine management, fuel cell .... doesn't mean the old Pinto was worth anything but scrap.
Last edited by Maelochs; 02-11-19 at 06:01 PM.
02-11-19, 06:13 PM
#236
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So, you go on a holiday and understand the society. Sorry, mate, you need a reality check. I commuted every day in Texas for 7 years. I think you need to check your facts and get a little more diverse before making sweeping commentary without the real-world experience to back it up. I also cycled at a university in Maine but that was standard campus fare so I don't count that.
Sorry, mate, you need a reality check. I commuted every day in Texas for 7 years. I think you need to check your facts and get a little more diverse before making sweeping commentary without the real-world experience to back it up. I also cycled at a university in Maine but that was standard campus fare so I don't count that.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-11-19, 10:48 PM
#237
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It was inexpensive and an excellent bicycle for commuting and other in town use as well as day trips. Foolish people might describe it and similar bikes derisively as a BSO or some other snarky term because it doesn't fit their concept of what a "proper" bicycle costs, looks like or wasn't sold at an LBS that employs or caters to enthusiastic self described bicycle cognoscenti like themselves
02-12-19, 02:30 AM
#238
Banned
This bicycle with 7speed Sachs IGH with coaster brake that I used for over 50,000 all weather, all season miles of commuting and shopping in the U.S. from 2002 -2018 with few issues was bought at the Real Dept store in Hockenheim, DE in 2000 for 268DM (about $135) without VAT. The plastic chainguard broke up after 10 years. I suppose chainguards wouldn't be a problem on any of the "good" bicycles touted by the BF bicycling enthusiasts.
It was inexpensive and an excellent bicycle for commuting and other in town use as well as day trips. Foolish people might describe it and similar bikes derisively as a BSO or some other snarky term because it doesn't fit their concept of what a "proper" bicycle costs, looks like or wasn't sold at an LBS that employs or caters to enthusiastic self described bicycle cognoscenti like themselves
It was inexpensive and an excellent bicycle for commuting and other in town use as well as day trips. Foolish people might describe it and similar bikes derisively as a BSO or some other snarky term because it doesn't fit their concept of what a "proper" bicycle costs, looks like or wasn't sold at an LBS that employs or caters to enthusiastic self described bicycle cognoscenti like themselves
They're good bikes but the bottom of the market. They're the worst that the German will tolerate. I find that the market low-end is even higher in Scandinavia and much lower (like the US in the UK and Eastern Europe, driven my cost.)
Now, I understand that an inexpensive bicycle doesn't make it a BSO automatically, but when other BF members post a price point that is very low (WalMart $99 bike), I feel so inclined to post a cheap German bike. In the end this would be a German BSO.
Bikemaxx might be more of a BSO but I never went in when I lived in Frankfurt.
This is the cheapest full-size bike they have (I would consider it a BSO, but I guess that you guys wouldn't):
https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-siena/1...temId=186448-1
https://www.boc24.de/fahrraeder/?show=all&filter.from_PRICE=3&filter.to_PRICE=9999&price_range_changed=false&sortBy=price
02-12-19, 02:35 AM
#239
Banned
My mistake on your commuting experience but in those 7 years of daily commutes, did you take your bike to a shop to have it fixed? Or did you fix it yourself? Most commuters I know fix their own bikes because they can’t wait a week for a shop to fix even a minor problem. Most of the mountain bikers I know fix most of their bikes with the possible exception of suspension systems for the same reason. Even then, many of them can rebuild a fork or shock if push comes to shove. Even the road bike riders I know fix their own bikes because they don’t want to wait on their bikes. I do know a thing or two about the bicycle community in the US. I’ve been a card carrying member for more than 40 years.
My commentary was against you stating that "people are people" and that the average American would fix a bike like a European. I don't think you can make that argument if you haven't lived under both systems. Going on a holiday to a bike shop is irrelevant as the profit make from bikes/service is different (I couldn't find a citation in English or German to post) and I only have spoken knowledge of that concept.
Also, the markets are totally different as I posted below based on the lowest price points I could find.
02-12-19, 02:39 AM
#240
Banned
Sorry, but that looks like the same cheap-as-crap pseudo MTB that Walmart sells for about the same money. 21-speed, which likely means freewheel and weak axle, cheap front shock, threaded headset ... the rear fender blocks the tail light, but that's okay, because from the look of it one good crash (supposing the bike ever actually saw an MTB trail) would snap the fender or bend it so that bending it back would break it.
Is That the kind of bike you see a lot of Euro commuters riding everywhere for years at a time? Does Real sell replacement fender mounts?
Something like this (https://www.real.de/product/323269638/) or this (https://www.real.de/product/325435163/) look to be a lot more practical for general riding and commuting.
Is That the kind of bike you see a lot of Euro commuters riding everywhere for years at a time? Does Real sell replacement fender mounts?
Something like this (https://www.real.de/product/323269638/) or this (https://www.real.de/product/325435163/) look to be a lot more practical for general riding and commuting.
But the low-end of the market (€200 or so) if very different than in the US usually driven by the StVZO, which people hate around here but it forces a minimal quality of bike to be ridden on the streets/cyclelanes or in "traffic" (regulations for lights and fenders, etc...)
02-12-19, 05:27 AM
#241
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How dare you guys look down on some kid's dream Christmas present!
I protest!
I had the best times in my life on one of those cheap things!
I recently was in a Giant bike store. I was looking at one of those and I thought to myself, "Wow! That is a lot of stuff you get for 200 dollars". I've never seen one of those things break. They just needed "tuning" like every other bike.
I protest!
I had the best times in my life on one of those cheap things!
I recently was in a Giant bike store. I was looking at one of those and I thought to myself, "Wow! That is a lot of stuff you get for 200 dollars". I've never seen one of those things break. They just needed "tuning" like every other bike.
02-12-19, 06:08 AM
#242
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I have known well several shop owners who would not work on BSOs precisely because they cannot be "fixed" in the sense that work will last for an acceptable period of time without causing safety concerns. And it goes beyond shifting to things like bottom brackets/cranks and wheels and brakes and headsets. It's not worth the liability risk for them. It's also not worth having to deal with a pissed off customer who comes back for the same repair two weeks later claiming the shop did substandard work.
02-12-19, 07:31 AM
#243
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Uncorrect. I am talking about shops that I allow to work on my higher-end custom bikes. Tell me...How many Yugos do you still see on the streets? Some things are simply junk and cannot be reliably repaired. (And why would anyone in their right mind want to spend even $10 on a BSO that needed constant repair?) You are living in a world that no longer exists. Very high quality items that last and can repaired reliably are few and far between compared to BITD, hence the term "disposable society?" But live in the past if you'd like. Just understand that your failure to grasp the current state of affairs causes you to believe things that are not true.
02-12-19, 08:10 AM
#244
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My commentary was against you stating that "people are people" and that the average American would fix a bike like a European. I don't think you can make that argument if you haven't lived under both systems. Going on a holiday to a bike shop is irrelevant as the profit make from bikes/service is different (I couldn't find a citation in English or German to post) and I only have spoken knowledge of that concept.
Also, the markets are totally different as I posted below based on the lowest price points I could find.
Also, the markets are totally different as I posted below based on the lowest price points I could find.
As to the shops, bikes, bike parts, and accessories sell for about the same as bikes, bike parts, and accessories here in the US since they are all global commodities. Bikes are, by and large, imported from the same suppliers for the same costs and, since they sell for a similar price when adjusted for the exchange rate. Bike shops don't make a lot of money on the bikes and they make less money on lower end bikes. A single speed Dutch commuter is a cheap bike made for a cheap price and no one is going to make a living off selling them. Bike shops are going to make their living off fixing them. That's the way of bike shops everywhere.
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02-12-19, 08:31 AM
#245
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No, it indicates a realistic bike shop. Bike shops may make their money on repairs but they don't want to alienate customers and potential customers by fleecing them on those repairs. A shop that wants to say in business, that is.
I think the problem here is a misunderstanding of what "unrepairable" means. You could go out today, buy a Yugo...there's one on Fleabay for $3500 with only 1800 miles on it...and spend thousands of dollars getting it to factory spec. But you'd have a Yugo that is factory spec plus an empty wallet. Would the Yugo be worth the money you spent on it? Could you get your investment back either at sale or in miles of use? Probably not. There's a reason you don't find a lot of used Yugos around.
On the other hand, you could go and spend that $3500 on a Honda Accord (there's a 2003 one on Craigslist in my area) and have a car that you wouldn't necessarily have to spend thousands to make it run properly.
The same applies to HelMart bikes, especially current ones. You could spend a lot of money fixing everything that is wrong with one...and everything is wrong with them...but in the end, you've spent as much to fix the bike as it costs to buy a new, better bike. Shops realize this and don't want to take people's money under false pretenses.
Could shops be a bit more gentle about letting down a customer when it comes to fixing a HelMart bike? Probably. But not matter what they do, some people are going to feel slighted because the shop won't "fix" their bike. That same customer would be hopping mad when they got the bill for those repairs. In my area, a lot of shops will direct people to my co-op because we will fix most anything...or at least attempt to fix most anything. But, a lot of times, these bikes do have unfixable problems even for us.
Uncorrect. I am talking about shops that I allow to work on my higher-end custom bikes. Tell me...How many Yugos do you still see on the streets? Some things are simply junk and cannot be reliably repaired. (And why would anyone in their right mind want to spend even $10 on a BSO that needed constant repair?) You are living in a world that no longer exists. Very high quality items that last and can repaired reliably are few and far between compared to BITD, hence the term "disposable society?" But live in the past if you'd like. Just understand that your failure to grasp the current state of affairs causes you to believe things that are not true.
On the other hand, you could go and spend that $3500 on a Honda Accord (there's a 2003 one on Craigslist in my area) and have a car that you wouldn't necessarily have to spend thousands to make it run properly.
The same applies to HelMart bikes, especially current ones. You could spend a lot of money fixing everything that is wrong with one...and everything is wrong with them...but in the end, you've spent as much to fix the bike as it costs to buy a new, better bike. Shops realize this and don't want to take people's money under false pretenses.
Could shops be a bit more gentle about letting down a customer when it comes to fixing a HelMart bike? Probably. But not matter what they do, some people are going to feel slighted because the shop won't "fix" their bike. That same customer would be hopping mad when they got the bill for those repairs. In my area, a lot of shops will direct people to my co-op because we will fix most anything...or at least attempt to fix most anything. But, a lot of times, these bikes do have unfixable problems even for us.
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Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-12-19, 08:32 AM
#246
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Now, at post 245 of this circular "debate", can something useful be salvaged from this thread?
Can anyone discuss and give examples of decent new assembled bikes that can be bought for less than $200? "Decent" is defined as reliable enough for regular short commute usage for at least three years without major components upgrade (tires, pedals and saddles don't count as "major"). I know that's arbitrary, but I also think it's not an unreasonable definition.
I'd really like to hear from people who think they've bought such bikes in the U.S. in the last few years, and would hope that other posters will refrain from trying to convince them that they're somehow wrong to like their bike..The value in a forum like this is to learn from other people's different experiences, not to convince other people that yours is the only way of looking at things.
Can anyone discuss and give examples of decent new assembled bikes that can be bought for less than $200? "Decent" is defined as reliable enough for regular short commute usage for at least three years without major components upgrade (tires, pedals and saddles don't count as "major"). I know that's arbitrary, but I also think it's not an unreasonable definition.
I'd really like to hear from people who think they've bought such bikes in the U.S. in the last few years, and would hope that other posters will refrain from trying to convince them that they're somehow wrong to like their bike..The value in a forum like this is to learn from other people's different experiences, not to convince other people that yours is the only way of looking at things.
02-12-19, 08:55 AM
#247
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Also ... I have to wonder if the BSO-type bikes sold in Europe aren't a bit better out of the box than the U.S. versions. because Europe has a much stronger cycling culture, a bike which didn't stand up wouldn't sell. A lot of people buy BSOs here either for growing kids, in which case they expect to replace the bike every couple years, or people who simply cannot afford one penny more and don't have any expectations of getting a decent bike because they have no context .... all they have ever seen are garbage bikes.
I think the problem here is a misunderstanding of what "unrepairable" means. You could go out today, buy a Yugo...there's one on Fleabay for $3500 with only 1800 miles on it...and spend thousands of dollars getting it to factory spec. But you'd have a Yugo that is factory spec plus an empty wallet. Would the Yugo be worth the money you spent on it? Could you get your investment back either at sale or in miles of use? Probably not. There's a reason you don't find a lot of used Yugos around.
Coops around me have zero issue fixing those bikes, and I'd argue do far more repair in them than anything nicer. They however have the advantage of a pile of scrap parts that are essentially free, and cheap/nonexistent labor rates.
And I'd probably spend the money on the Yugo, but I'm odd like that.
02-12-19, 09:17 AM
#248
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The bottom line is who gives a darn what slangy terms of disparagement ("BSO", "Helmart") BF self-styled "experts" use to describe products and organizations that don't meet their allegedly superior personal standards?
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 02-12-19 at 09:24 AM.
02-12-19, 09:20 AM
#249
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Okay, show some evidence that people in Europe work on their bikes more than Americans and take them to shops at a lower rate.
As to the shops, bikes, bike parts, and accessories sell for about the same as bikes, bike parts, and accessories here in the US since they are all global commodities. Bikes are, by and large, imported from the same suppliers for the same costs and, since they sell for a similar price when adjusted for the exchange rate. Bike shops don't make a lot of money on the bikes and they make less money on lower end bikes. A single speed Dutch commuter is a cheap bike made for a cheap price and no one is going to make a living off selling them. Bike shops are going to make their living off fixing them. That's the way of bike shops everywhere.
As to the shops, bikes, bike parts, and accessories sell for about the same as bikes, bike parts, and accessories here in the US since they are all global commodities. Bikes are, by and large, imported from the same suppliers for the same costs and, since they sell for a similar price when adjusted for the exchange rate. Bike shops don't make a lot of money on the bikes and they make less money on lower end bikes. A single speed Dutch commuter is a cheap bike made for a cheap price and no one is going to make a living off selling them. Bike shops are going to make their living off fixing them. That's the way of bike shops everywhere.
Like I said before, going on a holiday and seeing a shop or two doesn't make one understand a foreign market.
02-12-19, 09:34 AM
#250
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No. Bike shops don't sell cheap bikes in Germany. Supermarkets, do. You're showing your ineptitude. Where I bought my CUBE MTB in Frankfurt, the cheapest bike for sale was around €700. No used bikes were available. A few number of accessories were available. They hardly did any service (one clamp bay), never really needed to as most Germans did it at home in the bikeroom in the basement, which everyone in Frankfurt. In addition every house had shared tools and bench space in that room.
Like I said before, going on a holiday and seeing a shop or two doesn't make one understand a foreign market.
Like I said before, going on a holiday and seeing a shop or two doesn't make one understand a foreign market.
As to the "single bay", how big was the shop? Did it only have a few bikes or was it a large showroom. Common practice in bike shops is to have a single bay (or a couple of bays) on the showroom to do minor adjustments and have other mechanics bays out of sight. Showroom space is often more important to "show" customers than mechanical space.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 02-12-19 at 10:01 AM.
