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What is Shimano doing?

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Old 02-04-19, 06:06 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I've stopped buying Shimano until they can come up with a global spare parts pricing strategy that doesn't completely screw Americans.
Okay, what will you use that's not Shimano?
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Old 02-04-19, 06:27 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by 980C Rider View Post
Okay, what will you use that's not Shimano?
Depending on the part there are usually a some non-shimano replacement options available, especially for consumables like cassettes, bottom brackets and chains. The last groupset I bought was campagnolo, so I'm not too worried about avoiding buying any more shimano stuff for a while.
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Old 02-04-19, 06:32 PM
  #103  
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So Who is going to Osaka to ask in person? any volunteers?
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Old 02-05-19, 12:56 AM
  #104  
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There is another side to the price and Shimano story. What I've heard is that some on-line stores buy "leftover" parts from big bike factories like Giant. The cost of these parts are below wholesale prices and that is how they can offer it at the prices that can not be beaten by standard bike shops. We have a local online shop that also does not sell Shimano anymore. Maybe Shimano stepped in to protect their wholesale network and the bike shops that's been part of this global network for decades.
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Old 02-05-19, 02:25 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by jp911 View Post
Pharmaceuticals. Pretty much all of them.

+1 That was my first thought when I started reading this thread.


Pharmaceuticals are life and death for some people. Shimano is not. Shimano is doing an excellent job of convincing me that my practice of buying frames and equipping them with mismatched parts, often used isn't so dumb. Shimano parts I have purchased: lots of the 600 semi-platform pedals that were well past production before I discovered them; my favorite fix gear pedal ever, a new D-A front derailleur for my best bike, several front hubs on wheels bought on sale, 2 cranksets bought used, 2 dual pivot brake sets bought used, a cheap rear derailleur that destroyed itself (I've had such success with cheap SunTours I figured why not). A gorgeous BB clamp-on cable guide; near NOS that gives Campy a real run, a FW with hyperglide that drives me nuts friction shifting and a few other pieces. Oh and a couple of SPD mountain pedals.


The cable clamp and the 600 pedals are keepers. The D-A FD is very nice but I'd live just fine with another brand. The cantilever calipers off my early '80s Miyata 610 that have been on my Mooney the past 34 years are keepers. The rest I have no attachment to at all. They work. But I'd be just as happy with something else. If Shimano succeeds is forcing me to pay more to buy their brand than I can find from a competitor, I'm gone. (The Campy Mirage RD bought used for the bike that has the D-A FD, dual spring like a Shimano, is a pure joy to shift and a part I hope to keep using a long time.)


Ben
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Old 02-05-19, 02:38 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by 980C Rider View Post
Okay, what will you use that's not Shimano?
I decided many years ago that if I ever went to brifters, they would not be Shimano; both because being Shimano and I will not (ever) ride a bike where the brake lever also has another function for any distances longer than around a parking lot. So when I went 9-speed, I went Campy, No regrets. Never had an issue. Every cog (and position) I have ever wanted I have. Still not on brifters but I'll stay Campy.

Ben
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Old 02-05-19, 05:22 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
It's the limiting of consumer choice or limiting information to make an informed choice that is at issue. If a consumer "makes an end run" around the pricing structure, it's because the arbritrary market boundry is drawn wrong.


None of us own small businesses that has this problem. Small business is by definition the opposite of a global mega-corp. If we were small business owners, we would meet market demand at market prices.


The "outrage" is that the only way to know if a part is overpriced is to compare prices. That information is unavailable. Furthermore, they are still turning a profit in the cheaper market, we can then infer all monies collected beyond the exchange rate is gratituitous profit at the expense of an uninformed marginalized disempowered consumer that was knowingly taken advantage of. Eu-Us is the same as far as globalization is concerned. First world, both equally distant from manufacture. The equivalent market carving Shimano is doing is similar to selling to California at 1 high price, & Montana at a 40% discount. Then getting mad Californians are buying Montana sourced parts.


Nobody said Americans deserve a price break. We deserve a functioning free market capitalistic economy. Corporate domination to stifle competition; to contain and maintain, uninformed, boxed, consumers subservience is not consistant with this principal.


It is. The problem is the arbitrary boundarys drawn to carve up a single market for profit maximization. It's the same as the drug cartels defining which gang gets what territory. Doing so eliminates intra-gang rivalries so the cartel operates at highest profit across markets & lowest cost in any given market. It's the same as US telecoms intentionally staying out of eachothers areas to keep telecom/cable prices inflated. You can not prove the consumer was harmed by the absence of choice because the companies "choose" not to compete. Infrastructure cost keeps the little guy from even getting started. This prevents free market competition and ensures higher consumer cost.

While we're at it, I don't know anyone with a complete SRAM or Campy group set in any of my riding groups. I wonder if it has to do with the artificially inflated prices from the same game Shimano now seems to be playing.

I just can't believe people are ok with being bent over a barrel. It's just not right.
Nice rant. Your judgement is clouded by your obvious hatred of large corporations. Shimano in particular ofc.
Disempowered and subservient consumers, oh my
I sincerely hope you do not own a single Shimano item because that would make you a gigantic hypocrite. A gigantic disempowered and subservient hypocrite to be exact.

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Old 02-05-19, 06:48 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
The video industry has been interesting. I think it started with tapes and some countries running at 60 HZ, and others at 50 HZ.

But, most DVD and Blu-Ray discs sold have an embedded country code, and will not play in other countries.

So, if you purchase a big Blockbuster movie from the UK or Australia, it won't play on 99% of the video players in the USA.

Unfortunately, they did the same thing for locally produced videos, so if you wish to buy a small locally produced/distributed film or TV show, you're out of luck. Likewise, buying foreign language films can be problematic.

Many electronic media distribution companies are doing the same, so find some local TV show that you're interested in, distributed in another country, and you'll get your internet access blocked to the distributor's website.

The car industry has government imposed restrictions, blocking that couple of percent of "grey market" vehicles from coming in.

It may be that 40 years ago, as the governments started introducing SMOG and Safety standards, it made sense. But, now, much less so, as European and Japanese safety standards may be as good, or better than our own.

Many industries have struggled with price-fixing and Minimum Advertised Prices. And, right now the bike industry is winning over reason.
For cars, the EU and Asian safety standards are as good ours overall and better than ours in some cases. But the US tests were designed to solve the problems that have actually been seen as major on US roads, since NHTSA was started, therefore NHTSA views other standards as below the US standards. There is a lot of overlap with the EU situations, but if you don't design for and fully pass the US tests, you don't sell in the USA. Industry takes part in defining the rules and tests, but industry wants to make the same headlights (for example) for the whole world - less diversity, lower cost, more profit.

But all that blather having been said, harmonization across the Atlantic is a perennial topic in automotive engineering (one of the topics I cover in my jobs).
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Old 02-05-19, 09:39 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
If I was a bike shop I'd sell Shimano parts less than the minimum advertised price. It's not like someone would actually complain about paying less right?

And it's not like there are Shimano police out there running around and checking. Shimano makes nice stuff...but eff their MAP crap.

LOL. You could do that until another competing bike shop in the area caught wind and called Shimano. Then Shimano would cut you off as a distributor.
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Old 02-05-19, 11:04 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

Nice rant. Your judgement is clouded by your obvious hatred of large corporations. Shimano in particular ofc.
Disempowered and subservient consumers, oh my
I sincerely hope you do not own a single Shimano item because that would make you a gigantic hypocrite. A gigantic disempowered and subservient hypocrite to be exact.
A pragmatic observation of the state of things doesn't mean I harbor an emotional state one way or the other. Corporations are amoral by definition. Their only value system is monetary. Plus $ = good. Minus $ = bad. My morality is irrelevant to what they do. Though I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite for operating in my own rational self interest based on resources and availibility. Your logical fallicy is: No True Scotsman

Try this on for size:
APOTHECARY Who calls so loud?

ROMEO Come hither, man. I see that thou art poor. Hold, there is forty ducats. Let me have A dram of poison, such soon-speeding gear As will disperse itself through all the veins That the life-weary taker may fall dead,
And that the trunk may be discharged of breath As violently as hasty powder fired Doth hurry from the fatal cannon’s womb.

APOTHECARY Such mortal drugs I have, but Mantua’s law Is death to any he that utters them.

ROMEO Art thou so bare and full of wretchedness, And fear’st to die? Famine is in thy cheeks. Need and oppression starveth in thine eyes. Contempt and beggary hangs upon thy back. The world is not thy friend nor the world’s law. The world affords no law to make thee rich. Then be not poor, but break it, and take this. (holds out money)

APOTHECARY My poverty, but not my will, consents.

ROMEO I pay thy poverty and not thy will.

APOTHECARY (gives ROMEO poison) Put this in any liquid thing you will And drink it off; and, if you had the strength Of twenty men, it would dispatch you straight.

ROMEO (gives APOTHECARYmoney) There is thy gold, worse poison to men’s souls, Doing more murder in this loathsome world, Than these poor compounds that thou mayst not sell. I sell thee poison. Thou hast sold me none. Farewell. Buy food, and get thyself in flesh.— Come, cordial and not poison, go with me To Juliet’s grave, for there must I use thee.

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Old 02-05-19, 03:37 PM
  #111  
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^^^^^^^

FWIW for those that didn't have a 7th grade English teacher that was a hard@55 like I did...The Apothecary is Shimano, and the guy buying bike parts (poison) is Romeo. The apothecary protests at first but sells the bike parts for money because, although it is illegal, Romeo is begging him. The apothecary's morality is balanced by poverty. Romeo finishes the transaction by telling the apothecary that the gold is the true poison, take it, use it to buy food, enrich his life. The bike parts are Romeos salvation. He will use them to be with his true love & is thankful.

Kind of a freaky desperation. But poetic in it's own way...Summarizing the relationship between a vendor and a needy customer.

Is it any wonder why Shimano (or any vendor, for that matter) operates the way they do?

Ok, I'm done. I have an eBay sourced crankset in the mail. To all, I appreciate the chorus of opinion. It's nice to know I'm not the only one to look at the shrinking fish pen and feel the need to escape before the innevitable.

I think I'll make an effort to break from the marketshare mold & give some other vendors a try. I'm sure they will meet or exceed my expectations. Shimano has a good product, but inertia leads to stagnation.

Is there any smaller companies y'all know of that would be worth mention? Any that are particularly innovative I should try? Any Mom & Pop/small guy in a garage type operations that you've had good luck with?

Thanks, all.
Aaron

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Old 02-05-19, 05:12 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
LOL. You could do that until another competing bike shop in the area caught wind and called Shimano. Then Shimano would cut you off as a distributor.
No. Unless that shop "Advertised" a lower than MSRP price.
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Old 02-05-19, 07:36 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I decided many years ago that if I ever went to brifters, they would not be Shimano; both because being Shimano and I will not (ever) ride a bike where the brake lever also has another function for any distances longer than around a parking lot. So when I went 9-speed, I went Campy, No regrets. Never had an issue. Every cog (and position) I have ever wanted I have. Still not on brifters but I'll stay Campy.

Ben
I'd go Campy, but the cost.

Actually, nevermind, I just checked Amazon for "Campagnolo shifters", I can get a Campy Centaur ep 2x11 shifter for $134.59

Also on Amazon, I can get a Shimano 105 ST-5800 11 speed STI shifter from $109.99 to $289.99.

I've only had Shimano, have never felt the smoothness of a Campy shifter, gonna have to try one of these days, seeing as how they're not that much more expensive than an average, run-of-the-mill Japanese shifter.
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Old 02-05-19, 08:44 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
A pragmatic observation of the state of things doesn't mean I harbor an emotional state one way or the other. Corporations are amoral by definition. Their only value system is monetary. Plus $ = good. Minus $ = bad. My morality is irrelevant to what they do. Though I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite for operating in my own rational self interest based on resources and availibility. Your logical fallicy is: No True Scotsman

Try this on for size:
APOTHECARY Who calls so loud?

ROMEO Come hither, man. I see that thou art poor. Hold, there is forty ducats. Let me have A dram of poison, such soon-speeding gear As will disperse itself through all the veins That the life-weary taker may fall dead,
And that the trunk may be discharged of breath As violently as hasty powder fired Doth hurry from the fatal cannon’s womb.

APOTHECARY Such mortal drugs I have, but Mantua’s law Is death to any he that utters them.

ROMEO Art thou so bare and full of wretchedness, And fear’st to die? Famine is in thy cheeks. Need and oppression starveth in thine eyes. Contempt and beggary hangs upon thy back. The world is not thy friend nor the world’s law. The world affords no law to make thee rich. Then be not poor, but break it, and take this. (holds out money)

APOTHECARY My poverty, but not my will, consents.

ROMEO I pay thy poverty and not thy will.

APOTHECARY (gives ROMEO poison) Put this in any liquid thing you will And drink it off; and, if you had the strength Of twenty men, it would dispatch you straight.

ROMEO (gives APOTHECARYmoney) There is thy gold, worse poison to men’s souls, Doing more murder in this loathsome world, Than these poor compounds that thou mayst not sell. I sell thee poison. Thou hast sold me none. Farewell. Buy food, and get thyself in flesh.— Come, cordial and not poison, go with me To Juliet’s grave, for there must I use thee.
Wrong from the start.
A pragmatic observation would not have referenced disempowered and subservient consumers.
Along with intra-gang rivalries ofc lol.
You keep buying Shimano parts though bro. It really compliments your dramatics
Resources and availability?
I guess you don’t know where to find SRAM or Campy...

Last edited by downhillmaster; 02-05-19 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 02-05-19, 09:40 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

Wrong from the start.
A pragmatic observation would not have referenced disempowered and subservient consumers.
Along with intra-gang rivalries ofc lol.
You keep buying Shimano parts though bro. It really compliments your dramatics
Resources and availability?
I guess you don’t know where to find SRAM or Campy...
Dude, who is John Galt?
Industry is driven by the motivated, by the makers, the creators. Those that privatize the gains and socialize the losses. Those that see a thing or an opportunity and snatch it, keep it for themselves. Those that push & shove, influence and take where others yield. Subserviant, marginalized, disempowered, masses is the flip-side of the coin. The cartels corrollary might be better known as "industry trade associations," "Strategic Partnerships," or "lobbying groups." When they work for blue collar workers, they are known as, "Unions." How's that old saying go; "What's good for the goose is good for the gander?" Nothing new here...Move along.

But whatever, dude. Discount the reality of how a company becomes a multi-national, global mega-corp all you want. Paint whatever vision you want of what you think I believe. Thus far, I haven't said one thing one way or another. I've only reflected what I've digested from other posters here, on this thread. I asked what Shimano is doing & feel I've got a pretty comprehensive answer from this thread. You'd be surprised what you come up with when you turn off the media that tells you what to think & turn on your brain to find out what you really think. You don't know what I think. This is not P&R. Let's keep it that way.

I was asking about small business, Mom & Pop brands. Campy, SRAM are not small businesses, Mom & Pop type operations. Know of any? I'd like to build a bike that supports economic diversity in my community. Care to join me? I've got the rear wheel with a Texas made hub & a Florida made rim being built at a custom frame builder in Seattle right now. The Son hub for the matching front wheel is in the mail right now. It was made by a 30 person company. I need American-made disc brakes & calipers next.

Maybe it's time for a new thread, these last few posts have started the thread drift phenomenon pretty hard.
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Old 02-05-19, 10:46 PM
  #116  
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Chain Reaction stopped selling Shimano to N. America January 1. I slipped under the wire with a big order on New Years eve. In January, based on the recommendation another Bike Forums member, I switched over to ProBike Kit and placed another large order, anticipating the worst.

Yep... Just a few days ago, ProBike Kit followed in not shipping Shimano over here. Ok... now what? I think I have about 5 years of consumables horded, but what happens when this dries up?
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Old 02-06-19, 01:50 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by 980C Rider View Post
I'd go Campy, but the cost.

Actually, nevermind, I just checked Amazon for "Campagnolo shifters", I can get a Campy Centaur ep 2x11 shifter for $134.59

Also on Amazon, I can get a Shimano 105 ST-5800 11 speed STI shifter from $109.99 to $289.99.

I've only had Shimano, have never felt the smoothness of a Campy shifter, gonna have to try one of these days, seeing as how they're not that much more expensive than an average, run-of-the-mill Japanese shifter.
For me, it has nothing to do with "smoothness" or "feel". It's simply that I have been pressing my index or index plus middle fingers against the sides of the levers when riding the drops to steady the handlebars when I remove one hand to grab a water bottle or reach in a pocket (or reach down for the DT shifter). This is so well trained in me that it will take a crash or two to unlearn it if I go to a system where bad/unexpected things happen when I push that brake lever inboard. Campagnolo uses separate levers so nothing would happen if I do my old press. That press (on a brake lever that allows it) is really good for steadying the handlebars riding one handed on rough roads. Very, very useful for racing a very quick steering bike on New England roads (long, long before Shimano invented brifters).

Ben
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Old 02-06-19, 02:13 AM
  #118  
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Don't know what you guys are complaining about. Prices here for just about everything are usually higher than in the US. I can't help thinking Shimano are small beer compared with, say electronics, computers, etc etc., and that the market for bikes isn't huge either compared with those either.
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Old 02-06-19, 03:35 AM
  #119  
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Truly enjoyed the Shakespeare .... Romeo killed himselef to "be with" his unconscious girlfriend ... who later killed herself to "be with" her stupid suicidal boyfriend. Just a stupid guy doing stupid things because he lacked all perspective and refused to think before acting based entirely on emotion ... then his teenage girlfriend, who seemed so clever in faking death, stabbed herself, showing how stupidity is contagious.

The true poison is ignorance---"Against ignorance, the gods themselves strive in vain," said some self-absorbed and wholly delusional pseudo-philosopher who didn't live the life he preached ..... and willful ignorance is the most toxic ... I call it 'The American Disease."
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Old 02-06-19, 04:07 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Truly enjoyed the Shakespeare .... Romeo killed himselef to "be with" his unconscious girlfriend ... who later killed herself to "be with" her stupid suicidal boyfriend. Just a stupid guy doing stupid things because he lacked all perspective and refused to think before acting based entirely on emotion ... then his teenage girlfriend, who seemed so clever in faking death, stabbed herself, showing how stupidity is contagious.

The true poison is ignorance---"Against ignorance, the gods themselves strive in vain," said some self-absorbed and wholly delusional pseudo-philosopher who didn't live the life he preached ..... and willful ignorance is the most toxic ... I call it 'The American Disease."
Good to see such erudition on a bike forum !
Clearly Shakespeare's teenage tragedy doesn't translate so well in the US . I'm also not convinced about the Schiller quote, but thanks for it anyway, it wasn't one I was aware of before.
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Old 02-06-19, 05:20 AM
  #121  
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The worst thing about taking away the UK sellers, is maybe that there was more selection. I notice it's not such a huge price difference for what I could find to compare.
eg. a DA 9150 Di2 groupset sells respectively for $2150, $2200, or $2305 at PBK, Merlin, and Competitive Cyclist... so $100 more in the US or roughly a bit less than 5%.

Ultegra 8000 is about $700 if pieced together at Jenson, but only $632 at Merlin, so that's now closer to a 10% difference.
I haven't compared wheelsets.

However, neither Comp Cyclist, Jenson or Excel seem to eg. sell 105 series groups or much in the way of the individual parts. Anyone have insight into why? Tiagra as well.. no dice

If Shimano's concern is MAP, why not allow the UK sellers to sell into US but follow US MAP pricing guidelines? At least this would bring back the alternatives from a selection standpoint.

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Old 02-06-19, 05:35 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The true poison is ignorance---"Against ignorance, the gods themselves strive in vain," said some self-absorbed and wholly delusional pseudo-philosopher who didn't live the life he preached ..... and willful ignorance is the most toxic ... I call it 'The American Disease."
Close. Not a philosopher, pseudo- or otherwise, but the playwright Friedrich Schiller, in his 1802 play Maid Of Orleans, and not "ignorance" but "stupidity":

Folly, thou conquerest, and I must yield!
Against stupidity the very gods
Themselves contend in vain.


(Nietzsche's clever Bike Forums-like riposte: “Against boredom the gods struggle in vain.”) (From "The Anti-Christ," 1895.)

Schiller again, addressing the topic of Shimano pricing differentials:

Don't let your heart depend on things
That ornament life in a fleeting way!
He who possesses, let him learn to lose,
He who is fortunate, let him learn pain.

Last edited by Trakhak; 02-06-19 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 02-06-19, 06:00 AM
  #123  
downhillmaster
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Dude, who is John Galt?
Industry is driven by the motivated, by the makers, the creators. Those that privatize the gains and socialize the losses. Those that see a thing or an opportunity and snatch it, keep it for themselves. Those that push & shove, influence and take where others yield. Subserviant, marginalized, disempowered, masses is the flip-side of the coin. The cartels corrollary might be better known as "industry trade associations," "Strategic Partnerships," or "lobbying groups." When they work for blue collar workers, they are known as, "Unions." How's that old saying go; "What's good for the goose is good for the gander?" Nothing new here...Move along.

But whatever, dude. Discount the reality of how a company becomes a multi-national, global mega-corp all you want. Paint whatever vision you want of what you think I believe. Thus far, I haven't said one thing one way or another. I've only reflected what I've digested from other posters here, on this thread. I asked what Shimano is doing & feel I've got a pretty comprehensive answer from this thread. You'd be surprised what you come up with when you turn off the media that tells you what to think & turn on your brain to find out what you really think. You don't know what I think. This is not P&R. Let's keep it that way.

I was asking about small business, Mom & Pop brands. Campy, SRAM are not small businesses, Mom & Pop type operations. Know of any? I'd like to build a bike that supports economic diversity in my community. Care to join me? I've got the rear wheel with a Texas made hub & a Florida made rim being built at a custom frame builder in Seattle right now. The Son hub for the matching front wheel is in the mail right now. It was made by a 30 person company. I need American-made disc brakes & calipers next.

Maybe it's time for a new thread, these last few posts have started the thread drift phenomenon pretty hard.
You can ramble on all you want. You can wander around the globe and you can quote Shakespeare, Dickens, or Al Bundy for that matter.
But at some point you have to come home and face your own reality bro. You started this cesspool by ranting about big business and Shimano in particular yet you support them with your purchases. Campy and SRAM are very viable options and they don’t control their suppliers/markets in anywhere near the fashion you seem to dislike so much with Shimano.
You could have simply stated in your OP that you were looking for a mom and pop component company. As opposed to ‘something stinks in Shimanoland’
You must be a very talented cyclist because you sure can back pedal lol
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Old 02-06-19, 06:02 AM
  #124  
Maelochs
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Well ... far be it from me to struggle against either my own stupidity or ignorance then, right? I am no deity ... and it wouldn't help if i was.
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Old 02-06-19, 08:45 AM
  #125  
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The self deprecation shtick is getting old.
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