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What is Shimano doing?

Old 03-04-19, 10:02 AM
  #176  
I-Like-To-Bike
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The funniest part is ... how often does anybody need to buy a new group set? I have six road bikes. I do not "need" to build more.
Exactly what I have been wondering after reading the conniptions some posters are having about the future costs of their apparently endless process of constantly upgrading and replacing parts on their bicycles. What percentage of bicyclists do that sort of thing?

Sure, tires, tubes, spokes and cables and such wear out after moderate use and need to be replaced occasionally, but really, stockpiling parts and rebuilding bicycles on a routine basis?
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Old 03-04-19, 04:02 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I presume tariffs on finished goods would be on the wholesale cost.

So, a 20% tariff on a $50 wholesale item would increase that item to $60.

If the retailers do a 100% markup on that item, then it would have retailed for $100. However, with the tariff, the item shifts to $60 + $60 or $120. Another 10% sales tax would increase that product to $120 + $12 = $132.

Since the markups are generally a fixed calculation of the cost to the retailer (or intermediary wholesaler), the 20% tariff tends to get preserved out to the retail cost.

Yet, the government is only collecting taxes on a small portion of the final retail sales price.

Shimano won't care about raw materials prices in the USA. In fact, the raw materials tariffs may actually reduce their costs by forcing overseas suppliers of raw materials to cut costs and try to compensate for lost US sales.

Keep in mind that overseas purchases of bike parts hit numerous loopholes in that they are neither taxed EU/UK VAT, nor come in with US Tariffs or local sales taxes.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm not happy about paying more for everything. It would be worth it if the stuff was made in America, but it isn't.
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Old 03-06-19, 12:07 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Exactly what I have been wondering after reading the conniptions some posters are having about the future costs....
Ride more. I go through 4 chains per year, plus a cassette, and at least one chaining. I clean and lube regularly, but this is simple wear in a wet climate. Recent developments are going to make basic bike upkeep a lot more expensive.
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Old 03-06-19, 01:02 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Ride more. I go through 4 chains per year, plus a cassette, and at least one chaining. I clean and lube regularly, but this is simple wear in a wet climate. Recent developments are going to make basic bike upkeep a lot more expensive.
I replace the chain on my IGH equipped bikes about once a year or about 5000 miles of all weather cycling for less than $10 each. I replace the rear sprocket about once every decade or so for about $10, the front sprocket never.

Shimano pricing will have no effect on my cleaning and lubing supplies and I assume none for your cleaning or lubing needs no matter how frequently it is needed.
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Old 03-06-19, 01:24 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Ride more. I go through 4 chains per year, plus a cassette, and at least one chaining. I clean and lube regularly, but this is simple wear in a wet climate. Recent developments are going to make basic bike upkeep a lot more expensive.
Indeed. You should stock up .... or rather, should have already amassed a stockpile. That is what I would have done----shopped for the best deals, and bought en masse, knowing my needs.

And yes, for you, cycling is a lot more expensive than it is for most riders, because of where and when and how you ride.

The point Shimano is making, is that, it its opinion, you were getting an unfair price break before this.

Look ... No One Wants to pay more for parts. Chains I can buy generic. Cassettes, I don't think any knock-off brand is as good as Shimano. Chainrings were already ridiculously expensive, and now will be worse. Obviously no one who neds to replace parts will be happy.

However .... I pay for what i want. Once I have the new parts installed and I am riding I Will be happy. And that is what it is all about.

Not to be insulting, I hope .... but we could all buy and ride bargain-basement bikes. I don't Need Ultegra or 105. I want it, I appreciate it, but I could go back to riding haphazardly acquired BSOs which I cobbled together, if it came to that. I could stock up on old Claris, which is still better than the worst stuff I have ever used. And honestly, if I lived in a region where I went through chainrings at that high a rate, I might opt for a cheaper crank set. Right now I have a dedicated rain/gravel/bad conditions bike just so the good stuff lasts longer. If I lived int e PNW I might build a few cheaped-out bikes with good frames and bad running gear (cassettes and chain rings, at least.)

Once my wife and I retire, I might have to also retire some of my best bikes, and only take them out for special rides.

We all need to come to terms with changing conditions.

Mr. @Dave Mayer, I appreciate that you are not whining here, just stating facts. Some folks here seem outraged that Shimano would try to increase profits .... some seem to take it as a personal affront. I hope you already bought a crate or two full of spare parts. if not, i;d starts scouring the internet. Prices rarely go down.
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Old 03-06-19, 05:46 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Ride more. I go through 4 chains per year, plus a cassette, and at least one chaining. I clean and lube regularly, but this is simple wear in a wet climate. Recent developments are going to make basic bike upkeep a lot more expensive.
Man you go through a lot of chains and gears, geez even when I was putting in 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year, and most of that was climbing mountains, I would only go through one chain a year, and a cassette about every 3 years, and a chainring about every 6 years. Even when I did a lot of mountain biking, about 5,000 miles a year I went through chains about every 8,000 to 9,000 miles and the cassette would always last about 3 times longer than a chain, with the chainrings lasting about twice as long as the cassettes. So how many miles do you ride a year? are you a pro or semi pro rider?
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Old 03-06-19, 06:10 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
Man you go through a lot of chains and gears, geez even when I was putting in 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year, and most of that was climbing mountains, I would only go through one chain a year, and a cassette about every 3 years, and a chainring about every 6 years. Even when I did a lot of mountain biking, about 5,000 miles a year I went through chains about every 8,000 to 9,000 miles and the cassette would always last about 3 times longer than a chain, with the chainrings lasting about twice as long as the cassettes. So how many miles do you ride a year? are you a pro or semi pro rider?
hmm.. so you had cassettes lasting 40,000 miles and chainrings lasting 80k miles? maybe we should turn this into a "what lube" thread?
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Old 03-06-19, 08:11 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
hmm.. so you had cassettes lasting 40,000 miles and chainrings lasting 80k miles? maybe we should turn this into a "what lube" thread?
That was based on the older wider chains and gears, however I have 12,000 miles right now on a modern STI bike and the chain is just at the point of needing to be replaced, the gears front and rear are fine but not sure if they will last 3 times as long as the chain or not yet. Most cassettes or freewheels will last 3 times longer than the chain, with the front chainring lasting about 2 times longer than the cassette, so regardless if you get 3,000 miles out of a chain the cassette should last at least 9,000 miles; of course this is all rough estimates, sometimes things fail sooner but sometimes later as well.

Lube wise, I've used all sorts of lubes, when I tried drip wax though my chain life dropped by half as did my gears so I stopped using it. I think there are two things at play here, one is I clean my chain a lot, and I'm talking about a total cleaning not just a wipe down every 2nd time I lube, and then I wipe the chain down after every ride, but a clean chain is better because I'm taking off the grit constantly. I've heard from other riders that I'm a smooth rider which is why my drivetrain lasts longer then some other people, not exactly sure what all that means, but for some reason my stuff lasts longer than most, but I have read on other forums that a few guys do get my kind of mileage out of their stuff, so it's not in the realm of the impossible, I've also read where a few guys were only getting 800 miles out of chains, so there is a reason for the wide disparity but other then what I mentioned I'm not really sure why that is.
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Old 03-06-19, 09:33 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
Man you go through a lot of chains and gears, geez even when I was putting in 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year, and most of that was climbing mountains, I would only go through one chain a year, and a cassette about every 3 years, and a chainring about every 6 years. Even when I did a lot of mountain biking, about 5,000 miles a year I went through chains about every 8,000 to 9,000 miles and the cassette would always last about 3 times longer than a chain, with the chainrings lasting about twice as long as the cassettes. So how many miles do you ride a year? are you a pro or semi pro rider?
I get 3,000 miles out of a chain - max. These are derailleur-based chains. I know that bushing-based single-speed chains last longer. Regardless, there is no possible way to get 12,000 miles out of a chain. Actually we have folks walk into our local bike co-op every day who get huge miles out of chains, but upon measuring the chain, it is absurdly stretched and is jumping all up and over the cassette and chainrings. The chainrings and cassette cogs have been rendered shark-finned and useless. So a $300 drivetrain repair bill - yearly.
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Old 03-06-19, 10:07 PM
  #185  
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I think it has to do with pedaling technique. My worst chain was 1500 miles, and that was on a bike I hammered on every minute I rode it. Yet I've also had one go 6000 miles and even though I thought I was hammering it, I was a weak n00b just learning to cycle. It's on my kids bike now & just fine. It only got moved because of "upgrades" I don't know how many are actually on it, but it measures just fine.

I consider myself pretty average & I always get 2000 plus miles before the chain measuring gauge indicates "caution"

The high-dollar "Sil-tec" Shimano seems to be gimmick, but bar-oil (aka: Chain-L) seems to really make a positive difference. I have 1500 miles on a chain that still measures new on a bike that previously chewed one every 2k.

Lube thread! Chain-L!
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Old 03-07-19, 10:05 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I get 3,000 miles out of a chain - max. These are derailleur-based chains. I know that bushing-based single-speed chains last longer. Regardless, there is no possible way to get 12,000 miles out of a chain. Actually we have folks walk into our local bike co-op every day who get huge miles out of chains, but upon measuring the chain, it is absurdly stretched and is jumping all up and over the cassette and chainrings. The chainrings and cassette cogs have been rendered shark-finned and useless. So a $300 drivetrain repair bill - yearly.
So here is another forum discussing chain life, some don't get many miles but others do, one is a Cat 1 racer that gets 10,000 miles out of his chains: https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/vie...php?t=12758416
Due to this discussion I went and checked my chain wear on my main bike instead of waiting for spring, and it will need a new chain, but that chain has exactly 11, 589 miles on it according to the bike computer. I checked the gears and they're fine. Even IF I had waited too long to replace the chain and the gears went bad I still got a lot more miles out of both then what you said you get, but in this case I didn't wait too long because the gears are still good.
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Old 03-11-19, 07:08 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Exactly what I have been wondering after reading the conniptions some posters are having about the future costs of their apparently endless process of constantly upgrading and replacing parts on their bicycles. What percentage of bicyclists do that sort of thing?

Sure, tires, tubes, spokes and cables and such wear out after moderate use and need to be replaced occasionally, but really, stockpiling parts and rebuilding bicycles on a routine basis?
I havent complained about the cost of Shimano going up, but wanted to respond to this because i do rebuild bikes on a routine basis- both for me and to refurbish to sell. Its a hobby- and paying more for a hobby is never something I simply want to do without good(in my view) reason.

With that said, I can simply use KMC chains, sun cassettes, jagwire cables/housing, etc etc. Shimano consumable products can be limited to crank(when needed) and shifters...and neither of those are quick wear products.

Just felt like responding since you question rebuilding bikes on a routine basis. This winter I converted one of my old bikes into a single speed, am building up an old Cannondale road frame, built a modern MTB for my oldest daughter, and am updating her old MTB for my younger daughter.
Oh, and I refurbished a 90s Specialized road bike and added modern shifting to sell.

Components get used in a hobby.
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Old 03-11-19, 11:06 AM
  #188  
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@mstateglfr---just focus on building single-speed and Shimano will be come irrelevant.
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Old 03-11-19, 12:30 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I havent complained about the cost of Shimano going up, but wanted to respond to this because i do rebuild bikes on a routine basis- both for me and to refurbish to sell. Its a hobby- and paying more for a hobby is never something I simply want to do without good(in my view) reason.
[Skipped]
Components get used in a hobby.
I understand that someone who has a bicycle rebuilding hobby is likely to frequently buy components for his projects. I also understand that bicyclists use (ride) bicycles, often as their hobby.

It doesn't follow that many bicycle riders, including even those who consider their bicycle riding as a "hobby", have any inclination to take up bicycle rebuilding as a hobby, or to constantly rebuild their bicycles with new or different components in order to keep riding. Hence my question about number or percentage of bicyclists who are frequently buying components.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 03-11-19 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 03-11-19, 01:44 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I understand that someone who has a bicycle rebuilding hobby is likely to frequently buy components for his projects. I also understand that bicyclists use (ride) bicycles, often as their hobby.

It doesn't follow that many bicycle riders, including even those who consider their bicycle riding as a "hobby", have any inclination to take up bicycle rebuilding as a hobby, or to constantly rebuild their bicycles with new or different components in order to keep riding. Hence my question about number or percentage of bicyclists who are frequently buying components.
you asked what % of posters are continually building bikes and changing components. I dont know the answer since such a statistic isnt tracked, so i simply offered my experience. I am not saying most who consider cycling a hobby also build and tinker. I am not even suggesting it.

Based on your observation that a lot in this thread are frustrated, it seems that more than what you expected like to build and tinker. So take what % you thought and add to it, i guess. There- thats the answer to your question.
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Old 03-11-19, 07:29 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I understand that someone who has a bicycle rebuilding hobby is likely to frequently buy components for his projects. I also understand that bicyclists use (ride) bicycles, often as their hobby.

It doesn't follow that many bicycle riders, including even those who consider their bicycle riding as a "hobby", have any inclination to take up bicycle rebuilding as a hobby, or to constantly rebuild their bicycles with new or different components in order to keep riding. Hence my question about number or percentage of bicyclists who are frequently buying components.

At the very least, there are chains, cassettes and brake pads that would be regularly purchased online.


Less regularly would be someone deciding to upgrade their crankset or gearing or braking.
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Old 03-11-19, 07:50 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Shimano no longer lets the UK dealers sell to customers in the US.

There are a number of threads on this.

Shimano preventing EU dealers to sell to US in 2019 (rumor only)
I admit that I am not well informed on all of Shimano’s pricing strategies/markets but I thought that all of the discounted Shimano parts coming from the U.K. were essentially ‘gray market’ meaning they didn’t have the full Shimano backed warranty?
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Old 03-11-19, 09:14 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

I admit that I am not well informed on all of Shimano’s pricing strategies/markets but I thought that all of the discounted Shimano parts coming from the U.K. were essentially ‘gray market’ meaning they didn’t have the full Shimano backed warranty?
Everything I've ever bought from the UK has been in the same packaging as if I bought local.
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Old 03-12-19, 12:06 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Everything I've ever bought from the UK has been in the same packaging as if I bought local.
I was referring to warranty. I understand about gray market packaging issues as they pertain to things like electronics where you can be shorted accessories.
I would like to know if Shimano products bought from UK sites like Wiggle are backed by the manufacturer or just by the seller. And if so, is that even a big issue with bike parts?
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Old 03-12-19, 01:15 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
I was referring to warranty. I understand about gray market packaging issues as they pertain to things like electronics where you can be shorted accessories.
I would like to know if Shimano products bought from UK sites like Wiggle are backed by the manufacturer or just by the seller. And if so, is that even a big issue with bike parts?
As far as I know, until Shimano started cracking down, parts purchased from the UK and shipped to the U.S. were legitimately purchased and received full warranty coverage. In all the times I have done business with the sites mentioned, No mention was made of warranties being invalidated by overseas ship[ping--something which is usually mentioned on say, photography sites when buying Euro parts.

You could drop an email to a couple of the UK retailers, or check their web sites. As far as I know, the deal was that EU regulations prevented Shimano from requiring a minimum price. Shimano countered by demanding that those sites stop selling its merchandise to America, where Shimano could legally enforce a minimum price. I am sure someone with better information can tell the story better.
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Old 03-12-19, 07:46 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

I was referring to warranty. I understand about gray market packaging issues as they pertain to things like electronics where you can be shorted accessories.
I would like to know if Shimano products bought from UK sites like Wiggle are backed by the manufacturer or just by the seller. And if so, is that even a big issue with bike parts?
Usually parts are warrantied through the retailer. So your UK purchased part--warranty would be handled through (for example) via your UK retailer with Shimano UK (EU? Who knows with Brexit). Shimano USA would not give you the time of day WRT warranty for a UK/EU purchased part.

This isn't a new practice...has been normal for years. And not narrow to just Shimano. Had the same thing come up with a fluke dead Campagnolo Chorus FD.
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Old 03-12-19, 08:32 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Does anyone have any idea what Shimano is doing? The cost of their products seems to have increased since last I looked. Since I am in America, & the US dollar has gained strength in the recent years, the cost of foreign made goods should be going down. The strange thing is in the American market, they haven't. They've gone up. An M-785 crankset on Amazon is $250

I purchased an Ultegra crankset from a shop in Portland we all know & love. The shop owner said it wasn't included in the holiday sale because: "Shimano prices are already rock-bottom they will allow us to sell."
That notice has been on Shimano parts' pages on Universal's site for ages.
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Old 03-12-19, 09:05 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Usually parts are warrantied through the retailer. So your UK purchased part--warranty would be handled through (for example) via your UK retailer with Shimano UK (EU? Who knows with Brexit). Shimano USA would not give you the time of day WRT warranty for a UK/EU purchased part.

This isn't a new practice...has been normal for years. And not narrow to just Shimano. Had the same thing come up with a fluke dead Campagnolo Chorus FD.
So if I buy a Shimano wheel set from an authorized US dealer and six months later there is a defect the dealer will back them because Shimano is backing the dealer correct?
I essentially have two layers of protection.
Same scenario but if I purchased the wheel set online from a UK dealer I have to hope the dealer will back them because Shimano won’t.
Is this essentially correct?
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Old 03-12-19, 09:24 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

So if I buy a Shimano wheel set from an authorized US dealer and six months later there is a defect the dealer will back them because Shimano is backing the dealer correct?
I essentially have two layers of protection.
Same scenario but if I purchased the wheel set online from a UK dealer I have to hope the dealer will back them because Shimano won’t.
Is this essentially correct?
Warranty/RMA is always through your retailer first and foremost. Even finding an email to contact say Shimano USA is not straightforward. So if you import bike toys from a foreign retailer...you must seek coverage through that retailer in that country...which will almost always mean paying exorbitant shipping costs-as the first step of any RMA is returning the defective goods to the retailer via mail.


IRL example I had a Campagnolo Chorus 11 FD die. Freak thing, but frustrating. I had purchased it as part of a complete groupset from Ribble.

1) Campagnolo USA never returned any of my correspondence. Even for simple instruction as to who to contact and what to do.

2) Graeme at Campagnolo UK actually posts here on BF....and after a thread I made here, on BF. about this-told me what to do. I had to pay $30USD for First Class one-month-one-way freight (slowest possible) to send a 50 gram FD back to Ribble in the UK....they were chill about it and sent me a new one. After all was said and done, it took 2 months to replace that FD in freight time and processing and weekends.

Of course...knowing at the start of #2 this would take a while...I started sniping Amazon for a replacement to get back riding sooner than what ended up being 2 calendar months. I ended up finding an 11s Record FD on a pricing-error for $70USD Prime and had it for 1.5 months by the time the RMA part arrived from the UK.


TL;DR....so in your case of a wheelset...you'd RMA it to whatever retailer you bought it from...at which point, after $200USD in shipping (over-size overseas freight, even 1st class, consumer rates--remember consumers pay more for freight than business) it is probably more reasonable just to buy a new wheelset here in the USA.
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Old 03-12-19, 10:00 AM
  #200  
downhillmaster
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Warranty/RMA is always through your retailer first and foremost. Even finding an email to contact say Shimano USA is not straightforward. So if you import bike toys from a foreign retailer...you must seek coverage through that retailer in that country...which will almost always mean paying exorbitant shipping costs-as the first step of any RMA is returning the defective goods to the retailer via mail.


IRL example I had a Campagnolo Chorus 11 FD die. Freak thing, but frustrating. I had purchased it as part of a complete groupset from Ribble.

1) Campagnolo USA never returned any of my correspondence. Even for simple instruction as to who to contact and what to do.

2) Graeme at Campagnolo UK actually posts here on BF....and after a thread I made here, on BF. about this-told me what to do. I had to pay $30USD for First Class one-month-one-way freight (slowest possible) to send a 50 gram FD back to Ribble in the UK....they were chill about it and sent me a new one. After all was said and done, it took 2 months to replace that FD in freight time and processing and weekends.

Of course...knowing at the start of #2 this would take a while...I started sniping Amazon for a replacement to get back riding sooner than what ended up being 2 calendar months. I ended up finding an 11s Record FD on a pricing-error for $70USD Prime and had it for 1.5 months by the time the RMA part arrived from the UK.


TL;DR....so in your case of a wheelset...you'd RMA it to whatever retailer you bought it from...at which point, after $200USD in shipping (over-size overseas freight, even 1st class, consumer rates--remember consumers pay more for freight than business) it is probably more reasonable just to buy a new wheelset here in the USA.
I understand what you are saying about most warranties always going through the dealer first.
I spent a lot of time working in retail.
But retailers that have the full backing of the manufacturer will almost always properly handle your issues.
Retailers without that same official backing by the manufacturer will not always do the same.
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