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Observations on Weight Loss

Old 04-14-19, 04:25 PM
  #301  
Cuyuna
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Science says otherwise. But you go on believing what your guru told you.
Read the attached articles. Probably are over your head, but perhaps you can grasp the gist of why physiology and biochemistry are more complicated than you realize.

The Physiology of Body Weight Regulation: Are We Too Efficient for Our Own Good? | Diabetes Spectrum

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982215015778

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Old 04-14-19, 06:48 PM
  #302  
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IME you can out exercise a bad diet though not many people want to follow these exercise plans. Two examples come to mind for me.

1. I dropped from 195+- to 170 something in just over 2 weeks eating 4 times a day. Thing is I was working an extremely physically demanding job for 12 hours.

2. I went to one of the more physically demanding courses in the military and in 3 weeks dropped 15 pounds. Of course We were only getting 4 hours sleep a night and I think we walked somewhere around 300 km carrying a 45+ pound ruck pretty much the whole time.

On a more serious note I think genetics does play a role. My dad has always had trouble gaining and maintaining size. For me it comes easy.

Last edited by 88Tempo; 04-14-19 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 04-14-19, 06:53 PM
  #303  
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Special ops
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Old 04-14-19, 07:06 PM
  #304  
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Originally Posted by radroad View Post
A few months ago in bicycling magazine, one writer estimated that he burned about 125 cal for every 5 miles of riding, which sounds about right for an adult male of average weight. It's a much more conservative estimate than most "calculators" I've found online.
I've seen that quoted as well, but it is so general as to be useless. Calorie burn is entirely related to power output. As such, all the variables such as type of bike, type of tires, wind, incline, body weight, effort level, etc., etc., etc,, affect how many calories one burns per mile. I think many of us fall into that trap of feeling like we can eat more when the miles go up. The long and the short of it is, if you are not dropping weight while riding 100 or more miles a week, you are eating way too much.
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Old 04-14-19, 08:30 PM
  #305  
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post

Read the attached articles. Probably are over your head, but perhaps you can grasp the gist of why physiology and biochemistry are more complicated than you realize.

The Physiology of Body Weight Regulation: Are We Too Efficient for Our Own Good? | Diabetes Spectrum

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982215015778

If you truly understood what you posted here, you'd realize that none of it contradicts calories in vs calories out.
But then, that shouldn't be surprising, since it is impossible.
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Old 04-14-19, 08:33 PM
  #306  
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Originally Posted by Trentc View Post
I've seen that quoted as well, but it is so general as to be useless. Calorie burn is entirely related to power output. As such, all the variables such as type of bike, type of tires, wind, incline, body weight, effort level, etc., etc., etc,, affect how many calories one burns per mile. I think many of us fall into that trap of feeling like we can eat more when the miles go up. The long and the short of it is, if you are not dropping weight while riding 100 or more miles a week, you are eating way too much.
Agreed. People tend to overestimate what they think they burn while exercising. On a bike, the only real way to get a decent estimate (and even this isn't super accurate) is to use a power meter.
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Old 04-15-19, 07:54 AM
  #307  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
If you truly understood what you posted here, you'd realize that none of it contradicts calories in vs calories out.
But then, that shouldn't be surprising, since it is impossible.

All respect, but you're missing the point. Metabolic changes affect the calculation of calories out such that the idea one can "simply" balance the two is absurd. As you lose weight, the body becomes more efficient at using the calories you take on board, thus if you keep your activity and intake constant, you will stop losing weight and maybe even put some of it back on. Given that there is also a tendency to lower metabolism as we age, this balance is a constantly moving target.

Basically, even at the individual level, our data concerning calories in and the data on calories out are so subject to so many variables, that they are at best very rough estimates.

None of this stuff is simple, otherwise it would have been solved long ago.
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Old 04-15-19, 08:20 AM
  #308  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
All respect, but you're missing the point.
Not really.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Metabolic changes affect the calculation of calories out such that the idea one can "simply" balance the two is absurd. As you lose weight, the body becomes more efficient at using the calories you take on board, thus if you keep your activity and intake constant, you will stop losing weight and maybe even put some of it back on. Given that there is also a tendency to lower metabolism as we age, this balance is a constantly moving target.
Basically, even at the individual level, our data concerning calories in and the data on calories out are so subject to so many variables, that they are at best very rough estimates.
I never claimed the "calories out" level was static. Of course it changes. My argument, if you're willing to go back over a month are read the actual posts is against someone who is saying energy balance is irrelevant and that changes in metabolism can make weight loss impossible. This is, of course, false. The fact that you may not know the exact number of calories consumed, or burned, doesn't change the fact that energy balance is what is driving changes in weight.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
None of this stuff is simple, otherwise it would have been solved long ago.
But it is simple... or at least the physical part of it is. There is no mystery to how weight loss occurs. If you need to lose weight, eat less move more. Calories in < calories out. You don't need to know the exact value of either of those because, as you say, the best you'll get is an estimate. If you're not losing weight, consume a bit less and/or move a bit more until you are. If you stop making progress, adjust further.

The psychological aspect of achieving this, particularly over the long term, is another matter and, I agree, not simple at all.
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Old 04-15-19, 08:49 AM
  #309  
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Originally Posted by 88Tempo View Post
IME you can out exercise a bad diet though not many people want to follow these exercise plans. Two examples come to mind for me.

1. I dropped from 195+- to 170 something in just over 2 weeks eating 4 times a day. Thing is I was working an extremely physically demanding job for 12 hours.
Weight-wise, this is true, especially for younger folks. However, for more experienced folk, you can't really out-exercise all the negative effects of a bad diet, such as inflammation, atherosclerosis, etc. (I tried; it didn't work.)
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Old 04-15-19, 09:15 AM
  #310  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
The psychological aspect of achieving this, particularly over the long term, is another matter and, I agree, not simple at all.
I'm not even sure at this point whether or not we're disagreeing, but I do suspect that the line between physical and psychological in this area is a lot blurrier than that and that's one of why this isn't easily achieved--people's brains may be reacting to hunger and activity differently.

For me, massive weight loss involved constantly having to adjust my diet as I hit new plateaus, and really had to be obsessive about monitoring my weight and what I ate. After a while, further loss became unsustainable and I turned to working out to lose another 50 pounds. For many people, that level of intensity may be functionally impossible.
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Old 04-15-19, 09:54 AM
  #311  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not even sure at this point whether or not we're disagreeing, but I do suspect that the line between physical and psychological in this area is a lot blurrier than that and that's one of why this isn't easily achieved--people's brains may be reacting to hunger and activity differently.

For me, massive weight loss involved constantly having to adjust my diet as I hit new plateaus, and really had to be obsessive about monitoring my weight and what I ate. After a while, further loss became unsustainable and I turned to working out to lose another 50 pounds. For many people, that level of intensity may be functionally impossible.
I don't think we are disagreeing. My argument, for this particular branch of this particular thread, was with people who essentially said "calories don't matter". It doesn't sound to me like you're saying that.

People have lost significant weight eating nothing but twinkies, or beer, or McDonald's. It's quite clear that, from a purely physical perspective (and yes, the line between physical and psychological is blurry at best), weight loss can be achieved without having to follow <insert popular diet strategy here>. No one that is staved stays the same weight. Everyone on "The Biggest Loser" loses weight (not that I'm endorsing their methods). Calories matter.

But, in the real world, as you say, the psychology also plays a huge role. I'm sure, again as you say, different people's brains react differently. I have two friends who have lost massive amounts of weight as you have, and it's very clear their relationship with food is quite different than mine is. The fact that north of 90% of people fail to keep the weight off shows there is a lot at stake mentally, and much of that we don't understand as of yet. People trying to lose weight don't get to be put up in a ranch away from society in order to focus on their task. They still have to go grocery shopping and pass by the candy isle. They still get stressed out by their job/spouse/kids/life. But, I suspect you know all of this better than I do.
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Old 04-15-19, 10:17 AM
  #312  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I don't think we are disagreeing. My argument, for this particular branch of this particular thread, was with people who essentially said "calories don't matter". It doesn't sound to me like you're saying that.

People have lost significant weight eating nothing but twinkies, or beer, or McDonald's. It's quite clear that, from a purely physical perspective (and yes, the line between physical and psychological is blurry at best), weight loss can be achieved without having to follow <insert popular diet strategy here>. No one that is staved stays the same weight. Everyone on "The Biggest Loser" loses weight (not that I'm endorsing their methods). Calories matter.

But, in the real world, as you say, the psychology also plays a huge role. I'm sure, again as you say, different people's brains react differently. I have two friends who have lost massive amounts of weight as you have, and it's very clear their relationship with food is quite different than mine is. The fact that north of 90% of people fail to keep the weight off shows there is a lot at stake mentally, and much of that we don't understand as of yet. People trying to lose weight don't get to be put up in a ranch away from society in order to focus on their task. They still have to go grocery shopping and pass by the candy isle. They still get stressed out by their job/spouse/kids/life. But, I suspect you know all of this better than I do.

At this point, I tend to write off the opinions of almost anyone who says "______ doesn't matter" as if it were a fact, unless they fill in the blank with "Astrological sign" or "Sunspot cycle"

Food is intertwined with so many aspects of what we do and who we are that it is never a simple issue in almost any context. Just think how much of an argument you can set off by asserting "X is the way real Italians make_____". Substitute any ethnic group/race/whatever for X.

I have a pet theory that every ethnic group has a food they all find disgusting but insist on eating and pretending to enjoy because it distinguishes them from outsiders. I'm Jewish, and I call this the Gefilte Fish Theory.
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Old 04-15-19, 10:23 AM
  #313  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Weight-wise, this is true, especially for younger folks. However, for more experienced folk, you can't really out-exercise all the negative effects of a bad diet, such as inflammation, atherosclerosis, etc. (I tried; it didn't work.)
I agree for a large chunk of my life I didn't eat super healthy, but I exercised so much I was able to do that and maintain weight. Today being a little older and considerably more gimped up from those youthful activities I have to be a lot more selective in my exercise activities.
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Old 04-29-19, 12:13 AM
  #314  
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I still go for a few walks per week in my neighborhood, but it's very depressing. Lots of homeless, sketchy people, drug addicts. The people you see on bikes are usually homeless also. Pretty much no one walks unless they have to. There's a multi use trail more or less within walking distance but there are so many homeless encampments near the trail it too feels super sketchy. Quite a bit of gang graffiti on the buildings adjacent to the trails. Just lovely.

I suppose driving allows one to ignore just how far down the toilet the entire county has gone. Walking isn't therapeutic at all, it's just depressing.
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Old 04-29-19, 03:38 AM
  #315  
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We go for walks around our neighbourhood too.





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