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Observations on Weight Loss

Old 03-07-19, 07:58 AM
  #76  
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Adapt to living even with no food at all? Or at some point, will the person who's cutting back calories just keel over and die from starvation, without losing a single gram of fat? I wouldn't call that "adaptation".

I'm really trying to follow along with this line of thinking ... I think you're making the whole thing much more complicated than it needs to be.
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Old 03-07-19, 09:18 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Adapt to living even with no food at all? Or at some point, will the person who's cutting back calories just keel over and die from starvation, without losing a single gram of fat? I wouldn't call that "adaptation".

I'm really trying to follow along with this line of thinking ... I think you're making the whole thing much more complicated than it needs to be.
Adapt up to a point, I expect. The problem is that if you are consuming carbs, the body will continue to produce insulin and store fat, rather than build muscle. You need to change what you are eating.

For those who have time should watch this video.

https://www.cato.org/events/big-fat-nutrition-policy
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Old 03-07-19, 09:18 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
The problem many people have is they put on weight slowly, perhaps a pound or two per year over a long period and they want to get it off in a short period measured in weeks or months. It's much better to show some patience, adjust your lifestyle, lose the weight slowly by eating and exercising in a sustainable way. Too many of the fad diets require extreme vigilance which isn't pleasant or sustainable over the long term.
Exactly. People often set unrealistic short term goals to solve a long term problem. This sets them up for failure right out of the gate. Instant gratification schemes do not work. It takes diligence over the long term.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that the media (fake news) perpetuates this bull**** constantly. Check out any magazine rack and you'll see how so-and-so celebrity lost X number of pounds in only 6 weeks! Bodybuilding mags are the worst. Every issue has some author promising to add 1" to your biceps in 6 weeks! If that were remotely possible, gyms would be filled with guys with 22" guns, but that's not happening.

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Old 03-07-19, 09:57 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Adapt up to a point, I expect. The problem is that if you are consuming carbs, the body will continue to produce insulin and store fat, rather than build muscle. You need to change what you are eating.

For those who have time should watch this video.

https://www.cato.org/events/big-fat-nutrition-policy
The body only stores fat if you're eating over your maintenance. You can build muscle and eat carbs at the same time, so long as you're getting enough protein.
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Old 03-07-19, 01:30 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius View Post
Exactly. People often set unrealistic short term goals to solve a long term problem. This sets them up for failure right out of the gate. Instant gratification schemes do not work. It takes diligence over the long term.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that the media (fake news) perpetuates this bull**** constantly. Check out any magazine rack and you'll see how so-and-so celebrity lost X number of pounds in only 6 weeks! Bodybuilding mags are the worst. Every issue has some author promising to add 1" to your biceps in 6 weeks! If that were remotely possible, gyms would be filled with guys with 22" guns, but that's not happening.
I didn't know that the magazine rack was ever considered news at all. If you consider that junk "the news media", maybe that's part of your problem.

I think the nature of the word "media" confuses it for people and it is misused. "Media" is simply how information is conveyed, it does NOT mean that it is a source of domestic and international facts about the happenings in communities and government.

The "media" you are interacting with at a magazine stand, or on ESPN, or on the "filler" opinion cycles on Fox/CNN/MSNBC are entertainment media. Entertainment media is hyped, stretched, and morphed to grab attention.

If you want the real deal, try Reuters directly, a news "wire", or a foreign outlet.

I really hope this isn't an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist kind of thing. As those magazines have been trash for decades, it has nothing to do with Trump's favorite catch all of "fake news". As those magazines and lots of those shows are entertainment media. Not news.

.....carry on.

On the topic......I don't think a lot of people who have issues complaining about calorie deficits actually monitor the input and output as closely as it would take. Most pro endurance athletes track their weights in TrainingPeaks along with all their macros, by weighing their foods on a kitchen scale..

I hate to say it, but, if you want to actually be skinny you're going to be hungry sometimes. Part of that though is perfectly normal, and healthy.

That extended hunger or periodic fasting increases your insulin sensitivity. It's not good as a crash diet, but fine intermittently as part of a long term habit.

I can track my EXACT workout expenditures in Trainingpeaks with the output of my meter and the HR band for running. I do NOT weigh my food or anything, but can maintain +/-3 lbs of target pretty easily with varying weeks of training intensity.

What people DO overestimate is their basal metabolic rates though, especially those who work at desk jobs. You can't possibly need 2300 or even 2000 calories a day without exercise. Especially as a trained athlete.

Most people over compensate eating based on training and don't eat at the right times or don't do fueling for workouts properly. It is NOT a thing any longer to carb-up for big rides or events. You can only carry a certain amount of glycogen in your muscles and liver. Your carb loads or treats likely just metabolized into excess fat.

Heck, for time trial stages pro riders don't even really eat within 4 hours of the event for fears of indigestion or vomiting during the event. Maybe some electrolyte and gel soon before departing.

Also, a lot of recreational riders don't burn nearly as much per hour as they think on the bike. Especially those doing 4 hour weekend paceline rides.

I see these folks downing gels and cakes and treats on such rides where in 4 hours you "might" burn 1000 calories. Not to mention they're likely not even burning energy in the glycogen/ATP sense anyway at a Sunday stroll paceline. They're burning fat. Or destroying the buffet the night before a fondo. I tend to burn 800-1000 per hour for a race-pace ride, KJ, not even cals. KJ being a safer bet. A week of 450 TSS is about 4000 kj or calories.

That 4000 KJ in a week...........that's pretty much only ONE larger dessert or two full flavor beers per day. That's it. It could all be compensated for in 10 thoughtless minutes per day.

Last edited by burnthesheep; 03-07-19 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 01:52 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I didn't know that the magazine rack was ever considered news at all. If you consider that junk "the news media", maybe that's part of your problem.

I think the nature of the word "media" confuses it for people and it is misused. "Media" is simply how information is conveyed, it does NOT mean that it is a source of domestic and international facts about the happenings in communities and government.

The "media" you are interacting with at a magazine stand, or on ESPN, or on the "filler" opinion cycles on Fox/CNN/MSNBC are entertainment media. Entertainment media is hyped, stretched, and morphed to grab attention.

If you want the real deal, try Reuters directly, a news "wire", or a foreign outlet.

I really hope this isn't an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist kind of thing. As those magazines have been trash for decades, it has nothing to do with Trump's favorite catch all of "fake news". As those magazines and lots of those shows are entertainment media. Not news.
I never made the claim that they were legit sources of information, but they are indeed media publications. They're out there and people read them every day or they would cease to exist. Millions of dollars are spent on advertising in magazines every year simply because it works. It works because human beings are gullible and impressionable. Otherwise there would be no explanation for the Kardashians.

But thanks for thinking me a dolt just the same.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:12 PM
  #82  
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Basically, I lost 150 pounds over a couple years by losing a few pounds per week. What some of the CICO stuff misses is that the calculation is so constantly in flux that even if you had perfect information about the CI part (which, generally you do not), the CO shifts just by operation of the weight loss itself. When I weighed 320 pounds, just getting out of a chair burned a fair amount of calories, walking up a flight of stairs, quite a lot. As you lose weight, these actions become much easier and require less energy. By the time it came to the last 50 pounds, it became a matter of having to drastically ramp up my physical activity or just accepting a plateau while feeling very hungry all the time.

The only way I could maintain a slow steady weight loss was to daily weigh myself and adjust my calorie intake down every time my weight would plateau or start going in the wrong direction. There is nothing simple or easy about this, it really requires an obsessive amount of attention, figuring out which food is easiest to give up or reduce. Smartest thing I ever heard anyone say about this is that they've always been obsessed with food, now it's just focusing that obsession in a different direction.

The other great piece of advice I got is never to watch food shows on TV. It's more than they just make you immediately hungry, they also contribute to a sense that "every meal needs to be special", which I have found is the attitude that just makes it impossible to eat at all sensibly.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:30 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
People who think that fat-loss is only about CICO are wrong. Cutting calories isn't sustainable, you can't keep cutting calories forever. You can't live in caloric deficit forever especially if you're training and are physically active. Eventually your body will adapt to living on less calories and stop responding, then what ??
Under a permanent caloric deficit you will continue to lose weight until you die. Yes, your metabolism will slow down slightly and you may need to reduce calories further to continue to lose weight, but your body can't turn into a perpetual motion machine.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
...The problem with using exercise ( especially cycling, running and other aerobic exercises) is that human body adapts to it very quickly. When your body adapts to exercise it will stop responding, you become more efficient and burn less energy, then what are you going to do ??
This adaptation is limited. Again, a human body can't become a perpetual motion machine. Furthermore, your increased fitness will allow you to run/ride faster and further. Elite level runners and cyclists can burn more calories over a given time period than a beginner can. Also, this issue affects strength training just as much. A beginner may get a massive stimulus from a single set of squats with 135. For an advanced lifter, that's only the first part of their warm-up. You have to do more to elicit a result.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
. Are you going to cut more calories and starve yourself even more ??....It's really strange, we have more information on nutrition than ever before, we have all kinds of nutrition apps, all kinds of good wholesome food, and yet obesity epidemic is getting worse and it's not just among sedentary people but a lot of fitness buffs are overweight too.
Obviously there is a limit, but formerly obese people can, and have, successfully cut down to a healthy weight through exercise and calorie restriction. When people are forced to eat below a maintenance level of calories (people in POW camps, contestants on Survivor or The Biggest Loser), they lose weight. It may not be healthy, but the weight loss happens.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:38 PM
  #84  
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"Your body can't turn into a perpetual motion machine." Has a certain brutal logic to it, doesn't it?

When people are forced to eat below a maintenance level of calories (people in POW camps, contestants on Survivor or The Biggest Loser), they lose weight. It may not be healthy, but the weight loss happens.
Yeah, but it's REALLY unpleasant, your statement completely fails to take that important factor into account.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:38 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Adapt up to a point, I expect. The problem is that if you are consuming carbs, the body will continue to produce insulin and store fat, rather than build muscle. You need to change what you are eating.

For those who have time should watch this video.

https://www.cato.org/events/big-fat-nutrition-policy
Insulin is really important for building muscle.

I think I'll pass on the video.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:44 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

I see these folks downing gels and cakes and treats on such rides where in 4 hours you "might" burn 1000 calories.
I agree with your overall point, but 1000 calories on a 4 hour ride is really low. That's riding at like 70 watts. On my slow group rides, I'm burning 500-600 calories per hour (measured with a power meter).
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Old 03-07-19, 02:46 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Basically, I lost 150 pounds over a couple years by losing a few pounds per week. What some of the CICO stuff misses is that the calculation is so constantly in flux that even if you had perfect information about the CI part (which, generally you do not), the CO shifts just by operation of the weight loss itself. When I weighed 320 pounds, just getting out of a chair burned a fair amount of calories, walking up a flight of stairs, quite a lot. As you lose weight, these actions become much easier and require less energy. By the time it came to the last 50 pounds, it became a matter of having to drastically ramp up my physical activity or just accepting a plateau while feeling very hungry all the time.

The only way I could maintain a slow steady weight loss was to daily weigh myself and adjust my calorie intake down every time my weight would plateau or start going in the wrong direction. There is nothing simple or easy about this, it really requires an obsessive amount of attention, figuring out which food is easiest to give up or reduce. Smartest thing I ever heard anyone say about this is that they've always been obsessed with food, now it's just focusing that obsession in a different direction.

The other great piece of advice I got is never to watch food shows on TV. It's more than they just make you immediately hungry, they also contribute to a sense that "every meal needs to be special", which I have found is the attitude that just makes it impossible to eat at all sensibly.
Definitely true. Good post, and congrats on your success!
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Old 03-07-19, 02:48 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post

Yeah, but it's REALLY unpleasant, your statement completely fails to take that important factor into account.
I just assumed that was a given. This is why pretty much every diet strategy is based around having you eat less without it feeling like you're eating less (or at least minimizing that feeling).

Losing weight is simple, but not easy.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:49 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
The body only stores fat if you're eating over your maintenance. You can build muscle and eat carbs at the same time, so long as you're getting enough protein.
True, and more to the point: carbs are very good if you're trying to build muscle. I've never heard of an elite bodybuilder who tried to bulk on a low carb diet.
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Old 03-07-19, 03:08 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I agree with your overall point, but 1000 calories on a 4 hour ride is really low. That's riding at like 70 watts. On my slow group rides, I'm burning 500-600 calories per hour (measured with a power meter).
Thats fair. I redid the math. I think 1000 KJ an hour is about 260 to 275 watts. IIRC. So folks on the easier ride probably do only average about 130w an hour. So you’re right, 500 per hour. I stand corrected.

A gel is about 90cal each? Electrolyte drink about 90cal a bottle? So some folks are at 500 minus about 150 per hour. So net 350/hr with nutrition.

Not everyone eats them, but some do.

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Old 03-07-19, 03:19 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I just assumed that was a given. This is why pretty much every diet strategy is based around having you eat less without it feeling like you're eating less (or at least minimizing that feeling).

Losing weight is simple, but not easy.

Well, considering that literally every diet strategy has a miserable rate of success, maybe that isn't such a good way to look at it.

I'm convinced that the major reason this has been so poorly understood is that they're constantly trying to come up with rules for the masses when the issue really has to be dealt with at the individual level.
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Old 03-07-19, 03:22 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post


Thats fair. I redid the math. I think 1000 KJ an hour is about 260 to 275 watts. IIRC. So folks on the easier ride probably do only average about 130w an hour. So you’re right, 500 per hour. I stand corrected.

A gel is about 90cal each? Electrolyte drink about 90cal a bottle? So some folks are at 500 minus about 150 per hour. So net 350/hr with nutrition.

Not everyone eats them, but some do.

For sure. I have no doubt that some people actually gain calories on our group rides with what they eat before, during (especially at the coffee stop) and after.
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Old 03-07-19, 04:17 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
For sure. I have no doubt that some people actually gain calories on our group rides with what they eat before, during (especially at the coffee stop) and after.
They would've gained more if they had driven to the cafe instead.

Last edited by radroad; 03-07-19 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 05:19 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
The problem is that if you are consuming carbs, the body will continue to produce insulin and store fat, rather than build muscle.
Insulin is a very important hormone...It can trigger muscle growth or it can trigger fat storage....Without insulin your body wouldn't be able to build and maintain muscle. Using carbs to trigger insulin to build muscle is a good thing...Low carbs and keto diets are terrible at building and maintaining lean muscle tissue.
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Old 03-07-19, 05:26 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Insulin is a very important hormone...It can trigger muscle growth or it can trigger fat storage....Without insulin your body wouldn't be able to build and maintain muscle. Using carbs to trigger insulin to build muscle is a good thing...Low carbs and keto diets are terrible at building and maintaining lean muscle tissue.
Well I don 't know if that is correct. Excess carbs will build fat and can't build muscle in the absence of protein. To build muscle you need protein and fat in your diet. You don't need carbs. Or at least not much.
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Old 03-07-19, 05:29 PM
  #96  
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15 lbs isn't that much in the bigger picture (no pun intended). Look at it this way. There are people with much larger problems. No pun intended. Casey for example:




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Old 03-07-19, 06:17 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Adapt to living even with no food at all? Or at some point, will the person who's cutting back calories just keel over and die from starvation, without losing a single gram of fat? I wouldn't call that "adaptation".

I'm really trying to follow along with this line of thinking ... I think you're making the whole thing much more complicated than it needs to be.
Cut calories and you will lose weight -- that's the adaptation. No exercise needed. The only true debate beyond that is the safety and health aspect of each individual diet.
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Old 03-07-19, 06:25 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Cut calories and you will lose weight -- that's the adaptation. No exercise needed. The only true debate beyond that is the safety and health aspect of each individual diet.
That's true.
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Old 03-07-19, 06:35 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by radroad View Post
15 lbs isn't that much in the bigger picture (no pun intended). Look at it this way. There are people with much larger problems. No pun intended. Casey for example:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6l6vI4vtD4
"Not be judged on my weight?" What is the point of that? Your weight is the result of the poor choices in life. If you don't have any respect for yourself how can you expect respect from anyone else?
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Old 03-07-19, 06:41 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Cut calories and you will lose weight -- that's the adaptation. No exercise needed.
Cutting calories and not exercising will burn muscle tissue which isn't a good thing....So yes, you will loose weight but a lot of that weight loss will be lean muscle tissue.
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