Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Lock Picking Lawyer's personal bike lock

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Lock Picking Lawyer's personal bike lock

Old 04-13-19, 08:33 AM
  #1  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Lock Picking Lawyer's personal bike lock

I was mildly surprised by the number of LPL fans on the other thread. Anyway, he announced what his own, personal choice was for a bicycle lock:


It's not a bad choice, not at all, and the reasons he gives are sound, but 1) with 10mm links, it's susceptible to cropping by big bolt cutters (a near infinitely more common bike theft method than lock picking) and 2) this lock weighs over six and a half pounds. A similarly retail-priced OnGuard Brute u-lock would provide higher security and weigh less. You pay your money; you make your choice.

These locks retail for ~$75, and he says his bicycle didn't cost any more than that (!). Note: It would probably cost you a couple of thousand to replicate the custom designed and fabricated disc detainer lock pick he uses to hack it.

Last edited by tcs; 04-13-19 at 12:25 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 09:20 AM
  #2  
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 780

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 64 Posts
I know that 10mm Pewag security chain is impervious to even the largest bolt cutters, I don't know how well the Kryptonite chain compares to Pewag chain though.
General Geoff is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 09:37 AM
  #3  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,786
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 594 Times in 386 Posts
He hasn't picked the lock that I use. Not saying which type. The closest anybody has gotten, according to my google searches, is to pick a similar lock while saying that mine is more difficult. Then again, it's also sold as a low security lock, and a small bolt cutter would go right through my chain, so there are tradeoffs everywhere.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 09:46 AM
  #4  
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 780

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
He hasn't picked the lock that I use. Not saying which type. The closest anybody has gotten, according to my google searches, is to pick a similar lock while saying that mine is more difficult. Then again, it's also sold as a low security lock, and a small bolt cutter would go right through my chain, so there are tradeoffs everywhere.
LPL is also one of the most highly skilled and talented lock pickers in the world. He's been recorded picking open modern Abus Plus cores. That's really friggin difficult.


Suffice to say, just because he can pick something, doesn't mean anyone can.
General Geoff is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 10:51 AM
  #5  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,786
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 594 Times in 386 Posts
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
LPL is also one of the most highly skilled and talented lock pickers in the world. He's been recorded picking open modern Abus Plus cores. That's really friggin difficult.

Suffice to say, just because he can pick something, doesn't mean anyone can.
Agreed. I tend to assume that any lock can be defeated, but that LPL's feats are largely of entertainment value.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 11:18 AM
  #6  
Rick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 263 Times in 172 Posts
I have never had a bicycle stolen from me. Some luck, some paranoia. An idiot tried to steel a mtb from me once while I was occupied shopping in a walmart. He had poor timing. I came out of the store in time to see him wheeling it toward his pickup. I rammed him with the Super walmart shopping cart several times against his pickup. I also twisted him to the ground via his hair and jaw. I put my groceries in my panniers with my bicycle leaned against his pickup. I waited for the police and ems, he had warrants and I have impulse control issues. My bicycle is 5' from me in my bedroom as I type this.
Rick is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 12:23 PM
  #7  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
I know that 10mm Pewag security chain is impervious to even the largest bolt cutters, I don't know how well the Kryptonite chain compares to Pewag chain though.
In the first 7 seconds of this video you'll see a Pewag 10mm that had been cracked by bolt cutters:


Of course, manual bolt cutters and disc brakes are sooooo Obama Administration era. The hot set up in 2019 is hydraulics.


Last edited by tcs; 04-13-19 at 03:27 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 12:27 PM
  #8  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
He hasn't picked the lock that I use...Then again, it's also sold as a low-security lock, and a small bolt cutter would go right through my chain, so there are tradeoffs everywhere.
In this case, the trade-offs being extremely rare lock picking bike thefts versus everyday bolt cutter attacks.

If you ever suffer the horror and anguish of bike theft, hopefully the thief will cut the last link of your chain and not the shackle of your, hmm, Assa Abloy 330?

Last edited by tcs; 04-13-19 at 12:41 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 04:03 PM
  #9  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,786
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 594 Times in 386 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
In this case, the trade-offs being extremely rare lock picking bike thefts versus everyday bolt cutter attacks.

If you ever suffer the horror and anguish of bike theft, hopefully the thief will cut the last link of your chain and not the shackle of your, hmm, Assa Abloy 330?
It's a Master 1533, which comes in a package of 3 colorful locks with the same combination, and is a smaller version of their classic dial combination lock. I doubt that it's really super secure. The chain would be slightly easier to cut than the shackle of the lock. Either way, I'd be sad if my bike got stolen.

Judging from the locks that people use, bike theft is not a huge problem in my locale. Many people use cheap cable locks.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 04:44 PM
  #10  
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 780

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
In the first 7 seconds of this video you'll see a Pewag 10mm that had been cracked by bolt cutters:

https://youtu.be/viR5G4fVjP4
Conveniently the video proof of them being cracked by bolt cutters is missing.

I've put a hairline crack in a 12mm pewag security chain with 49" Krenn bolt cutters. It utterly destroyed the cutting blades in the process. I'd have needed two sets of blades at least to break one chain. The hydraulic cutters suffer the same problem as the manual ones, i.e. the cutting blades shatter or dull before the chain is completely cut.




Last edited by General Geoff; 04-13-19 at 04:50 PM.
General Geoff is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 05:03 PM
  #11  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
It's a Master 1533...
Cute little locks. Yeah, the LPL has never 'picked' that one, but there are all kinds of videos on the 'net about shimming Master Lock combos open.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 05:04 PM
  #12  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,268
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16753 Post(s)
Liked 3,739 Times in 2,775 Posts
Interesting comment that the flexible chain tends to eat cutting discs.

You can buy those disc lock picks on E-Bay for cheap, although his video about picking the Kryptonite NY indicated that he had issues with depth, I think, which may have led to making the custom pick.

Apparently the Lock Picking Lawyer has struck out trying to pick the Bowley Lock.

https://www.bowleylockcompany.com/

Odd the LPL didn't choose the Bowley + a robust chain.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 05:20 PM
  #13  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Interesting comment that the flexible chain tends to eat cutting discs.
Guess that's why on videos I've seen they put the chain under tension before they slice it.

Odd the LPL didn't choose the Bowley + a robust chain.
Well, 1) a ~$250 padlock + ~$80 security chain isn't really cost effective to protect a <$75 bike and 2) the 'unpickable' Bowley might last as much as 20 seconds against an angle grinder.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-13-19, 05:34 PM
  #14  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,786
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 594 Times in 386 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Cute little locks. Yeah, the LPL has never 'picked' that one, but there are all kinds of videos on the 'net about shimming Master Lock combos open.
Aha, I had not looked into shimming. Interestingly, a metal bulge around the shackle would defeat shimming. Or a bolt cutter big enough to crack my chain.

In my view, all of this lock picking stuff is still just security theater.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 07:24 AM
  #15  
freeranger
Senior Member
 
freeranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,355

Bikes: 06 Lemond Reno, 98 GT Timberline mtn.bike

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked 551 Times in 342 Posts
I'm a firm believer in the saying that "locks are to keep honest people honest". I had a large Master lock cut off of a shed with a pair of bolt cutters. The would-be thieves dropped the bolt cutters and ran when my neighbors dog barked, she looked over, then screamed when she realized they were trying to break into my shed. They ran and dropped the bolt cutter. They got nothing-I got a pair of very heavy-duty bolt cutters-never used 'em, but I kept 'em, nothing like free tools (well-the cost of a new lock for the shed).
freeranger is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 11:31 AM
  #16  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
I'd have needed two sets of blades at least to break one chain. The hydraulic cutters suffer the same problem as the manual ones, i.e. the cutting blades shatter or dull before the chain is completely cut.

Yep, not cost effective to steal the LPL's $75 bike, but steal a Madone or Dogma F10 at the cost of one or two sets of replaceable bolt cutter jaws? Even at fencing value that economic exchange would be well into the black for the thief.


The hydraulic cutters have the advantages that, unlike 49" manual cutters, you can put them under a hoodie and you don't have to weigh 24 stone to create the necessary force.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 11:56 AM
  #17  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,268
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16753 Post(s)
Liked 3,739 Times in 2,775 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
The hydraulic cutters have the advantages that, unlike 49" manual cutters, you can put them under a hoodie and you don't have to weigh 24 stone to create the necessary force.
Not as loud as a saw, but does it sound like a gunshot when one breaks through a lock? Perhaps that would get some attention.

Many locks require 2 cuts to get them open.
CliffordK is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 12:13 PM
  #18  
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 780

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Yep, not cost effective to steal the LPL's $75 bike, but steal a Madone or Dogma F10 at the cost of one or two sets of replaceable bolt cutter jaws? Even at fencing value that economic exchange would be well into the black for the thief.


The hydraulic cutters have the advantages that, unlike 49" manual cutters, you can put them under a hoodie and you don't have to weigh 24 stone to create the necessary force.
Nobody riding a madone or dogma f10 is likely to be carrying around a 6+ lb chain anyway, so thats kind of a moot point. IMO a cordless angle grinder is more of a guarantee against all types of locks and chains anyway, for the same or less money compared to a hydraulic cutter.
General Geoff is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 12:51 PM
  #19  
tcs
Palmer
Thread Starter
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,471

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times in 566 Posts
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
Nobody riding a madone or dogma f10 is likely to be carrying around a 6+ lb chain anyway, so that's kind of a moot point.
Amazingly enough, carry-along is not the only scenario for bicycle security. A chain lock is often recommended for a leave-at-home or leave-at-work security device. Go big.

IMO a cordless angle grinder is more of a guarantee against all types of locks and chains anyway, for the same or less money compared to a hydraulic cutter.
Yep, kinda the universal solvent of bike locks, if the noise and shower of sparks aren't a problem.

Last edited by tcs; 04-14-19 at 12:54 PM.
tcs is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 07:40 PM
  #20  
MEversbergII
Senior Member
 
MEversbergII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland
Posts: 1,262

Bikes: Current: Origami Crane 8, Trek 1200 Former: 2012 Schwinn Trailway

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Yep, kinda the universal solvent of bike locks, if the noise and shower of sparks aren't a problem.
Some years back I recall watching a video of a guy who set out to "steal" his own bike in the middle of a busy street using an angle grinder to cut his lock. Nobody stopped him.

M.
MEversbergII is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 08:23 PM
  #21  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,950

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,072 Times in 1,390 Posts
Liquid nitrogen & a metal hand punch might crack the security device.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 10:10 PM
  #22  
igorek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I was looking at Abus Bordo Granit XPlus 6500 and how he cracked this lock so easily. This thing cost $180

igorek is offline  
Old 04-14-19, 10:36 PM
  #23  
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 780

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by igorek View Post
I was looking at Abus Bordo Granit XPlus 6500 and how he cracked this lock so easily. This thing cost $180
It would be significantly harder to accomplish that in the field, without the lock being clamped into a bench vise. You'd basically have to wedge the lock against an immobile object to counteract the torque being applied by the socket wrench. Probably take 4 or 5 minutes, which is about as long as you can ask any lock to withstand a targeted attack with proper tools.
General Geoff is offline  
Old 04-15-19, 07:25 AM
  #24  
MEversbergII
Senior Member
 
MEversbergII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland
Posts: 1,262

Bikes: Current: Origami Crane 8, Trek 1200 Former: 2012 Schwinn Trailway

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by igorek View Post
I was looking at Abus Bordo Granit XPlus 6500 and how he cracked this lock so easily. This thing cost $180

<snipped out video>
I wonder how easy it is to cut the plastic, as well. That said, I have been told in the past that folding locks can be cut with bolt cutters so I have always steered clear of them.

M.
MEversbergII is offline  
Old 04-15-19, 10:57 AM
  #25  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,029

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7357 Post(s)
Liked 7,614 Times in 4,275 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
this lock weighs over six and a half pounds. A similarly retail-priced OnGuard Brute u-lock would provide higher security and weigh less. You pay your money; you make your choice.
I'm out--that's just too much awkward weight.

I bought a Brute and a Brute mini, and found that I will make any excuse I can not to carry them. Ended up buying a less secure but much lighter lock because I figure one I'll actually use is more secure than the one I left at home.
livedarklions is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.