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Is everything you thought you knew about endurance training wrong?

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Is everything you thought you knew about endurance training wrong?

Old 04-19-19, 12:35 AM
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Is everything you thought you knew about endurance training wrong?

Emerging research is attempting to denounce the long held belief in endurance training as beneficial to good health, especially as we age.

Personally, I’ve long believed that while extreme athletes are brilliant at what they do, that doesn’t indicate that they are necessarily in good overall health. Now, some cardio research teams are suggesting that extended intensive training may actually be a heart health risk factor.

Check out this short video that I stumbled across.


Worth considering or junk science? Will this affect your cycling training? I imagine there are lots of differing opinions on this, but you have to admit it’s not the first time that “all things in moderation” has been suggested as the best approach to good health and long life.
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Old 04-19-19, 04:49 AM
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So I can continue on as is, or live miserably but supposedly healthier? My preferred choice of death is drop dead after running 60 miles at age 80.
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Old 04-19-19, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Sapperc
Emerging research is attempting to denounce the long held belief in endurance training as beneficial to good health, especially as we age.

Personally, I’ve long believed that while extreme athletes are brilliant at what they do, that doesn’t indicate that they are necessarily in good overall health. Now, some cardio research teams are suggesting that extended intensive training may actually be a heart health risk factor.

Check out this short video that I stumbled across.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6U728AZnV0

Worth considering or junk science? Will this affect your cycling training? I imagine there are lots of differing opinions on this, but you have to admit it’s not the first time that “all things in moderation” has been suggested as the best approach to good health and long life.

Just a note--TEDX talks aren't really vetted, unlike TED talks are, so I'm always suspicious of them.

There's been previous threads on this subject. There's conflicting science on this, and it's really hard to define where the "too much" end of the curve starts. I don't think you can generalize from runners to bicyclists, for example.

I'm not curious enough to check the date of this talk, but my impression of the studies that have come out recently have indicated that it's prolonged INTENSE effort that can get into the harmful range, the kind of thing that only elite athletes can do. Prolonged exercise by itself does not seem to have that effect.

And much of this research is done using elite athletes to get the right-hand side of the curve. As always, I suspect that research is prone to confounding variables like undisclosed PED use, unusual genetic traits, and very unusual dietary habits.

I don't actually "train" as I don't race, but I routinely ride 200 miles per weekend in the temperate months (less this weekend because all-day rain is going to drive me to the gym Saturday), but I just don't find the science convincing enough to change habits that I find enjoyable.
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Old 04-19-19, 07:55 AM
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Somewhat old news I think and no it won't change what I do.
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Old 04-19-19, 07:59 AM
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Naw, no way. Where I've seen this it's always been a matter of perspective. If someone rides a century every weekend, maybe a double, to me that is "extreme endurance training" but it's not the potentially hazardous extreme that they're looking at. My weekend runs are "extreme endurance" to the guy in the cube next to mine, but in reality they're short or mid range runs. Not a heart risk, no matter how long I keep doing it.

If we get to those heart-health extremes of training, there are going to be so many other things going on that there won't be much question that we're getting to that "extreme" range. It's not an accidental thing, not something that will sneak up. Assuming there are no other extant heart risks, it's all good. Don't worry about it.
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Old 04-19-19, 08:22 AM
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Prolonged, especially combined with high intensity, endurance exercises kill! This video was in 2012, now in 2019 the evidence is even more convincing.
Plenty of young cyclists collapsing during competitions too, not just runners.
In fact, it's only a week ago that a continental cycling race was cancelled because some guy had a heart attack:

It seems the group most in denial of this piling mountain of evidence is the middle-aged groupers. These folks just don't want to hear that extreme exercise can kill.

I'd listen to this cardiologist who is also an endurance athlete himself... before I'd listen to weekend warriors without medical degrees. I mean, expert opinions matter, right?

Last edited by aclinjury; 04-19-19 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 04-19-19, 08:48 AM
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Years ago, when I was still part of a diet/lifestyle group called "Primal Blueprint", this concept was around as "Chronic Cardio"; here's a few examples:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/case-against-cardio/

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-...hronic-cardio/

Now, I'm not saying that TPB is credible or anything, but putting out that this idea isn't anything particularly new.

M.
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Old 04-19-19, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Prolonged, especially combined with high intensity, endurance exercises kill! This video was in 2012, now in 2019 the evidence is even more convincing.
Plenty of young cyclists collapsing during competitions too, not just runners.
In fact, it's only a week ago that a continental cycling race was cancelled because some guy had a heart attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-McuR1d4U4

It seems the group most in denial of this piling mountain of evidence is the middle-aged groupers. These folks just don't want to hear that extreme exercise can kill.

I'd listen to this cardiologist who is also an endurance athlete himself... before I'd listen to weekend warriors without medical degrees. I mean, expert opinions matter, right?
My understanding, as a weekend warrior with a medical degree, is that the young people who drop dead in athletic events have occult cardiac electrical conduction abnormalities and die in exercise-induced ventricular arrythmias, not from heart attacks (vessel blockages which deprive the heart of blood flow). That's different from the chronic changes this guy is on about.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:16 AM
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Gotta die from something, might as well be an activity you enjoy.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:42 AM
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Too much training and too much exercise only applies to elite level athletes who compete at a professional level. I don't think and average person who exercises for general health and fitness will ever reach dangerous levels of too much exercise... Majority of people have a problem of not being active enough and not being too active.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
My understanding, as a weekend warrior with a medical degree, is that the young people who drop dead in athletic events have occult cardiac electrical conduction abnormalities and die in exercise-induced ventricular arrythmias, not from heart attacks (vessel blockages which deprive the heart of blood flow). That's different from the chronic changes this guy is on about.
ok great. so what's your take on this guy then? is he talking science? is the evidence he presented back up his points? or is playing the boogie man and much to do about nothing?
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Old 04-19-19, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Rides4Beer
Gotta die from something, might as well be an activity you enjoy.
Could be embarrassing to one's heirs and assigns.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
ok great. so what's your take on this guy then? is he talking science? is the evidence he presented back up his points? or is playing the boogie man and much to do about nothing?
I am not a cardiologist or even an internist and don't have time to get into this video today, but I have seen other reliable-appearing data on cardiac muscle and blood vessel damage in ultra-athletes and have no reason to reject the hypothesis that extreme exercise over a lifetime has significant risks. That said, I don't think anyone knows if there's a threshold for the bad stuff or where the risk crosses zero from low to high, relative to the sedentary population. This 62 year-old is going to keep beating himself up on the roads in the certain knowledge that the daily probability of getting whacked by an elderly lady in a (white) Lexus is many orders of magnitude greater than that of dying from exerise-induced heart damage.
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Old 04-19-19, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
This 62 year-old is going to keep beating himself up on the roads in the certain knowledge that the daily probability of getting whacked by an elderly lady in a (white) Lexus is many orders of magnitude greater than that of dying from exerise-induced heart damage.
That's an oddly-specific vehicle/driver description. Is she particularly nasty? Have you considered a stalking order?
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Old 04-19-19, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
That's an oddly-specific vehicle/driver description. Is she particularly nasty? Have you considered a stalking order?
She's a lovely person and apologizes abjectly after each deadly run at me. Interestingly, she has an apparent stable of luxury sedans, Mercs, Lexi, Accuras, all white.
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Old 04-19-19, 10:33 AM
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Great news! My strategy of sitting on the couch and watching TV is finally vindicated.
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Old 04-19-19, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
She's a lovely person and apologizes abjectly after each deadly run at me. Interestingly, she has an apparent stable of luxury sedans, Mercs, Lexi, Accuras, all white.


So avoiding her could be your HIIT.
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Old 04-19-19, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I am not a cardiologist or even an internist and don't have time to get into this video today, but I have seen other reliable-appearing data on cardiac muscle and blood vessel damage in ultra-athletes and have no reason to reject the hypothesis that extreme exercise over a lifetime has significant risks. That said, I don't think anyone knows if there's a threshold for the bad stuff or where the risk crosses zero from low to high, relative to the sedentary population. This 62 year-old is going to keep beating himself up on the roads in the certain knowledge that the daily probability of getting whacked by an elderly lady in a (white) Lexus is many orders of magnitude greater than that of dying from exerise-induced heart damage.
good to know! Well me personally, when it comes to assessing sporting risks, I don't want to compare myself to a sedentary person, because a sedentary person is a low standard of comparison.

I consider myself an endurance person and have been doing this since high school. Back in high school, my family doc took an xray of my heart and said my heart is a little bigger than normal, which spooked me, then he asked if I play sport, and I told him yes I play sport, lots of sports, and his concern went away. He was probably thinking "athletic heart". I've never had my chest xray since. Today, i'm still going hard, but I'm DEFINITELY more attuned to the science now because I have a family and young kids who depend on me for their livelihood now. So when experts speak, I listen (even if I don't want to hear it).

These are what I've come to be aware of now:

1. prolonged endurance exercise can in fact cause calcification of the artery, especially the aorta (the big artery)
2. an athletic heart, once a person stops exercising, doesn't return to its normal size, it stays enlarged. Could this be bad? The science doesn't know yet.
3. scarring of the heart. A friend of mine (endurance cyclist) one day started to feel something strange about his heart, he's very attuned to his body. He went to see a cardiologist and the doc ran some blood tests and other electro- test and said that his heart muscle is breaking down too much. Told him to not exercise much for the next 3 months. Now he's back to doing what he was doing before and so far he hasn't experienced the same symptoms. But I just have to wonder if he's still over doing it even if he sees no apparent symptoms.

Now if I was in my mid 60s with kids all grown up and deceased wife, then i'd probably won't give a crap if I die playing something I like.
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Old 04-19-19, 11:13 AM
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Seriously I'll take the conclusions of medical studies I've seen over the years, to that of a random cardiologist. Even if I'm standing in his office looking at his medical degree.


The "Extreme Exercise Hypothesis" postulates a U-shaped curve with optimal health benefits in the middle, and rising risk at the "extreme" end. For example, this one:


from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132728/ This is pretty typical.


Question is, where is the "optimal" part, before you get to the risky red part? In this one at least, the authors claim that "maximal cardiovascular health benefits" occur at 3-4 times the training volume of "current guidelines", which amounts to 6-10 hours of moderate intensity aerobic activities. (I personally average about 10 hours if I'm generous about the "moderate" part, so I'm liking that)


Their research indicates that studies show quite a range in where various risk factors begin to equal the benefits. It's worth noting though, and results are more consistent about it, that sudden cardiac death is more associated with "intense" exercise rather than "endurance".
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Old 04-19-19, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Sapperc
Emerging research is attempting to denounce the long held belief in endurance training as beneficial to good health, especially as we age.

Personally, I’ve long believed that while extreme athletes are brilliant at what they do, that doesn’t indicate that they are necessarily in good overall health. Now, some cardio research teams are suggesting that extended intensive training may actually be a heart health risk factor.

Check out this short video that I stumbled across.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6U728AZnV0

Worth considering or junk science? Will this affect your cycling training? I imagine there are lots of differing opinions on this, but you have to admit it’s not the first time that “all things in moderation” has been suggested as the best approach to good health and long life.
Dont discourage the self trained rats in the maze. Its fascinating to watch.
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Old 04-19-19, 02:09 PM
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There are many things about this sport (most sports really) that are unhealthy at the top level. Even for an amateur racer like myself - I know I feel a bit healthier when I have a little more fat and muscle over the off season and weigh 155 lb - 160 lb. Right now it's the heart of racing in socal and I'm sitting at 145 lb and typically feel a bit less resilient to illness and injury. Come mid summer I'll gain it back until mid winder when I'll start cutting upper body work back, eating healthier and training a lot more.
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Old 04-19-19, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hillyman
Dont discourage the self trained rats in the maze. Its fascinating to watch.
You say that like it's a bad thing!

Some of us may happen to like that, sick and twisted as it may be
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Old 04-19-19, 06:03 PM
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Does the heart of a person only have so many ticks in one lifetime?

i guess a pa maker can extend that

thoughts ?
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Old 04-19-19, 08:26 PM
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Listening to Jurek talk about it, biggest risk for ultra athletes seems to be suicide.

They are an odd group of athletes, I suspect there are many who are trying to outrun depression.
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Old 04-19-19, 08:54 PM
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I think I'm safe, I get intense visions of potato chips and my couch around the 100 mile mark.

I've been interested in brevets though and the longer ones have people going through the night. That seems more dangerous to disrupt your sleep cycle then keeping the heart rate up.
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