General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

From 14 mph to faster

Old 05-20-19, 03:46 PM
  #76  
blekenbleu
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: South Carolina low country
Posts: 5

Bikes: 1973 Coventry Eagle, 2016 Mongoose Argus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
I知 riding a Fuji Jari gravel bike with 28mm road tires right now.
That seems a nice gravel bike; are you still riding in gravel with 28mm road tires?

1x11drivetrain. I知 thinking a bigger chain ring up front.
Charlotte, NC. No big hills but virtually no level terrain either.
Having lived near Concord, I suppose that
you might be better served by dual chain rings as on the Jari 1.3 and 1.7...
I am a 1x fan, but ride mostly level terrain. I picked up some speed by changing cassettes
so that most used cog also gives most nearly perfect chainline, with 1 tooth cog differences available either side.
Whether you could obtain that with 2 chain rings for Piedmont terrain is arguable..

As others implied, easing rather than busting thru barriers tends to be more achievable.
blekenbleu is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 03:50 PM
  #77  
MNebiker
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: MN
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Conditioning, training, etc - all good stuff, but there is a basic issue. Back when I worked as a bike tech one of the frequent complaints I heard was that their mountain bike was slow. My usual response was to pull out a mountain bike and a 700C hybrid/commuter and show them the difference in the drive train. The mountain bike is geared for climbing and rough terrain - the hybrid is geared to cruise on smooth surfaces. In addition, the rolling resistance of a wider tire with an aggressive tread is considerably higher than the 700C with a road pattern. But, the 700c tire is not good on soft terrain or loose surfaces. Riding at the same cadence in top gear, the 700C will be noticeably quicker than the mountain bike. Neither bike is better - both are excellent in their proper environment. Just pick the right bike for the occasion.
MNebiker is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 05:17 PM
  #78  
sail
Senior Member
 
sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: iOWA
Posts: 379

Bikes: Yep

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
If you want to ride faster you've got to train faster than that.

Personally I don't see the rush.
sail is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 06:06 PM
  #79  
Rajflyboy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 515
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by MNebiker View Post
Conditioning, training, etc - all good stuff, but there is a basic issue. Back when I worked as a bike tech one of the frequent complaints I heard was that their mountain bike was slow. My usual response was to pull out a mountain bike and a 700C hybrid/commuter and show them the difference in the drive train. The mountain bike is geared for climbing and rough terrain - the hybrid is geared to cruise on smooth surfaces. In addition, the rolling resistance of a wider tire with an aggressive tread is considerably higher than the 700C with a road pattern. But, the 700c tire is not good on soft terrain or loose surfaces. Riding at the same cadence in top gear, the 700C will be noticeably quicker than the mountain bike. Neither bike is better - both are excellent in their proper environment. Just pick the right bike for the occasion.
Good post
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 04:42 AM
  #80  
Witterings
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Witterings, West Sussex
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
I changed my ride endpoint to "The Pub" .... made my rides a lot quicker
Witterings is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 05:56 AM
  #81  
Synack42
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Michigan
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 7 Posts
This thread is kind of a confidence booster for myself... I've never rode with a group before; Solo I average 14-15 MPH over a 1-1.5 hour ride. I thought I was too slow to be in a group.

(26er hard tail MTB with WTB All Terrains if curious.)
Synack42 is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 05:59 AM
  #82  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 5,034

Bikes: '71 Jeunet 630, '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '83 Fuji America, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 568 Post(s)
Liked 77 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
I知 averaging 14 ish mph on my rides and struggle with going faster.

How do I bust through this barrier ?
It's been a week since the suggestion of group rides. Well, did you go on one this weekend?

What are you willing to do to go faster?
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 07:43 AM
  #83  
rosefarts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 269 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 44 Times in 16 Posts
One day this summer i知 going to ride from Morrison to the top of Mt Evans. That痴 50 miles and will take 5-6 hours. From 5500 to 14k.

I may reset my speedometer for the ride down. Under 2 hours?
rosefarts is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 08:18 AM
  #84  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,424

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2029 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Originally Posted by Synack42 View Post
This thread is kind of a confidence booster for myself... I've never rode with a group before; Solo I average 14-15 MPH over a 1-1.5 hour ride. I thought I was too slow to be in a group.

(26er hard tail MTB with WTB All Terrains if curious.)
Some groups just ride at 14-15 MPH, too. My local club is composed mostly of tourers and social riders with little interest in racing or otherwise increasing speed. I do my hammering on the bike commute, which is backwards from how a lot of cyclists do it.

If you ask your local bike shops, they may know of rides in your area that aren't geared toward going fast.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 08:22 AM
  #85  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 6,762

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3609 Post(s)
Liked 168 Times in 125 Posts
I don't think I've ever seen a Strava group activity from any of the local "fast guys" going over about an 18.5mph average. The normal club rides? If they have a 15mph average, they were absolutely smokin' that day. Typically it's 11-13mph.

Problem for me is, I don't want to go 11-13mph, so I'm out there alone every day.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 08:47 AM
  #86  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 3,838

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1929 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times in 265 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I don't think I've ever seen a Strava group activity from any of the local "fast guys" going over about an 18.5mph average. The normal club rides? If they have a 15mph average, they were absolutely smokin' that day. Typically it's 11-13mph.

Problem for me is, I don't want to go 11-13mph, so I'm out there alone every day.
I also find there's just too much kibitzing involved in group rides, mostly too much time assembling the group in the parking lot while everybody chit chats and waits for Bob to get his gloves on. I want to get onto the ride right away.


It's also a lot easier to adapt my plans to weather conditions if I don't have to deal with a committee.


By all means, people should try group riding if they think it might be good for them, but shouldn't feel bad if they decide it's not.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 09:02 AM
  #87  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 6,762

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3609 Post(s)
Liked 168 Times in 125 Posts
Oh, and don't forget-- a group ride has a leader, who generally makes decisions. The local group will cancel if the ground looks like it might even have a chance of getting wet. Then of course the sun comes out and it's dry all day. Same for the scheduling-- they roll at 8am at Saturday morning, no matter what. Thing is, that Saturday it might be 40コ at 8am, but 65コ at 10am. So I ride at ten-- only having to dress for one temperature, instead of leaving the house in layers.

I guess I just haven't found many local group rides that aren't a big hassle relative to just riding by myself whenever I feel like it. And they certainly wouldn't make me any faster.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 09:13 AM
  #88  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 3,838

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1929 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times in 265 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Oh, and don't forget-- a group ride has a leader, who generally makes decisions. The local group will cancel if the ground looks like it might even have a chance of getting wet. Then of course the sun comes out and it's dry all day. Same for the scheduling-- they roll at 8am at Saturday morning, no matter what. Thing is, that Saturday it might be 40コ at 8am, but 65コ at 10am. So I ride at ten-- only having to dress for one temperature, instead of leaving the house in layers.

I guess I just haven't found many local group rides that aren't a big hassle relative to just riding by myself whenever I feel like it. And they certainly wouldn't make me any faster.
And since I generally want to cover 100+ miles on a Saturday before the weather gets too hot in the late afternoon, I'd be pissed at the late 8 a.m. start.

I guess we're just lone wolves by nature.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 11:05 AM
  #89  
Witterings
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Witterings, West Sussex
Posts: 961
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
If they have a 15mph average, they were absolutely smokin' that day. Typically it's 11-13mph.
You've no idea how good that makes me feel ... I've been wondering if it was us just going slow but that's bang in our range of mix between road / gravel and wind / weather ... if we cut out the gravel sections it'd possibly nudge up as they do take the speed down quite a bit.

We typicaly do a 20 mile mid week ride and a 30/45 mile ride at the weekends ... be interesting to know if the guys that are going much quicker do considerably more than that.
Witterings is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 01:18 PM
  #90  
base2 
Senior Member
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 968

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
There's two concepts at odds here......going fast, and being fast.

They're totally different. To go fast you can buy and do things and join the right group rides and pick your terrain well or be a total tool and run every stop sign and light at full speed.

The other way, to actually be fast........ is to use structured training.

Also,
A lot of people throw around numbers, but once you get into following a lot of folks do you realize how relative speed can be. I follow the pros that are on the team our company sponsors, and often they will have training rides only right at 20 or so mph. Sometimes less. But.......they'll average 75 to 100 feet per mile elevation while doing so.

Not to mention, people play games with gps's. Some people screw with autopause speeds and will pause it manually if farting around or something.

I'm going to say among the rides that aren't on TT bikes, that of the 5 or so amateur racers I follow.......it's a coin flip as to whether a solo ride they post will crack 20mph or not.

20mph is also a turning point, power wise, due to how aero works. At, and below 20, the ratio of CRR and CdA isn't so heavy yet on the CdA side. Over 20, it starts to get a lot harder a lot quicker.

If it's flattish with just a couple rollers and nothing to hold up your progress like stop lights......it only takes about 175w or so on a road bike to average right at 20mph.

Just figure out what makes you happy on the bike and work on how to maximize that. Then adopt equipment and training choices that support maximizing that happiness.
+1
100% true.
base2 is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 06:44 PM
  #91  
kayakindude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New England
Posts: 193

Bikes: 1987 Cannondale SR600/BioPace, 1994 Giant Iguana MB, 2009 Airnimal Chameleon, 2016 Dahon Vybe C7A

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I have to say what a difference group riding makes. I've done a few but it's usually a small group of 3-4 riders which pushes you to stay with the pack. Sunday I tried for my 1st century in 12 years. Jumped into a group of about 15 riders. It was like night and day. In the pack I was pacing over 20mph with little effort. When I slowed away from the pack I really had to work hard to regain my ground. Wind became a huge factor. Time flies in the pack because you are constantly watching the other bikes around you by mere inches.

I would give it a try as a tool in your toolbox.
kayakindude is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 06:56 PM
  #92  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 6,762

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3609 Post(s)
Liked 168 Times in 125 Posts
Flagrant stereotyping, but a lot of those "fast group guys" are just that-- fast in a group. Get them out on their own, when they have to punch their own hole, and it becomes pretty obvious as to why their Saturday group speed is 18+ and the Wednesday afternoon solo ride is 15mph.

Group riding is great for learning to ride in the pack, and how to behave in close proximity to other bikes. But unless it's an all out A Group hammerfest, you'll put in more work solo, because there's no one there to help out.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 07:29 PM
  #93  
Nachoman
well hello there
 
Nachoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Point Loma, CA
Posts: 14,950

Bikes: Bill Holland (Road-Ti), Fuji Roubaix Pro (back-up), Bike Friday (folder), Co-Motion (tandem) & Trek 750 (hybrid)

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 12 Posts
I haven't read all the responses and I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but the only sure way of increasing your average speed is by buying a new bike or upgrading all your equipment.
__________________
.
.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
Nachoman is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 08:15 PM
  #94  
jadocs
Senior Member
 
jadocs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 741

Bikes: Litespeed T2 Disc, Fondirest P4 Carbon, Fuji Cross 2.0, Specialized Fatboy

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 313 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 47 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Flagrant stereotyping, but a lot of those "fast group guys" are just that-- fast in a group. Get them out on their own, when they have to punch their own hole, and it becomes pretty obvious as to why their Saturday group speed is 18+ and the Wednesday afternoon solo ride is 15mph.
It痴 not like that at all where I知 at. None of the guys and gals I know that ride in a fast group do 15mph solo unless it痴 on purpose (as in a recovery ride or a planned casual ride).

But back to the question, can someone who does a 15mph average get to 20+ solo? Yes you can. I outlined how I did it earlier in the thread.
jadocs is offline  
Old 05-23-19, 07:02 PM
  #95  
Rajflyboy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 515
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by blekenbleu View Post
That seems a nice gravel bike; are you still riding in gravel with 28mm road tires?


Having lived near Concord, I suppose that
you might be better served by dual chain rings as on the Jari 1.3 and 1.7...
I am a 1x fan, but ride mostly level terrain. I picked up some speed by changing cassettes
so that most used cog also gives most nearly perfect chainline, with 1 tooth cog differences available either side.
Whether you could obtain that with 2 chain rings for Piedmont terrain is arguable..

As others implied, easing rather than busting thru barriers tends to be more achievable.
I have considered going with a bigger chainring. Adding a tooth or two.

Some more interval training this week. I can see this helping in the long run. No group rides just yet.
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 06:27 PM
  #96  
Cougrrcj 
Over forty victim of Fate
 
Cougrrcj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,002

Bikes: A few...

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I AVERAGE 17-18mph on my work commute. 12.4 miles in 42-44 minutes. That INCLUDES time spent at traffic lights. My actual riding speed is closer to 20-21mph, but I also ride slower the last mile or two as a 'cool-down'. I ride one of my 24-26-pound 30+yr old lugged steel bikes, loaded with bottle, bag with tool kit, lights, and my change of work clothes -- So figure 30-31 pounds as ridden. Oh, and I'm a 60+ yr old near-Clyde (200-ish pounds). I'm usually riding a 75-85ish gear-inch combo at at 85-90-ish cadence.

My distance or Century cadence is a bit slower as one would expect, maintaining the same cadence but a gear-or two lower. Counting rest stops, my average Century is around 5:45-6:10 of saddle time for a ~15.8-16.8mph pace.

Just this past month, I did my 'birthday ride' (61+ miles) in 4:03 of saddle time (average 15.0 mph) with just two short rest stops as my first 30+ mile ride of the year. Yeah, I'm an out-of-shape old man...

BTW, both of my 'primary' bikes are rolling on 28s. The old Fuji is on 27x1-1/8 and the Miyata is on 700x28.
__________________
'75 Fuji S-10S bought new, 52k+ miles and still going!
'84 Univega Gran Tourismo
'84 Univega Viva Sport
'86 Miyata 710
'90 Schwinn Woodlands
Huffy MTB - for trips to corner store
MTB of questionable lineage aka 'Mutt Trail Bike'

Last edited by Cougrrcj; 05-25-19 at 06:30 PM.
Cougrrcj is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 09:43 PM
  #97  
Rajflyboy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 515
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by Cougrrcj View Post
I AVERAGE 17-18mph on my work commute. 12.4 miles in 42-44 minutes. That INCLUDES time spent at traffic lights. My actual riding speed is closer to 20-21mph, but I also ride slower the last mile or two as a 'cool-down'. I ride one of my 24-26-pound 30+yr old lugged steel bikes, loaded with bottle, bag with tool kit, lights, and my change of work clothes -- So figure 30-31 pounds as ridden. Oh, and I'm a 60+ yr old near-Clyde (200-ish pounds). I'm usually riding a 75-85ish gear-inch combo at at 85-90-ish cadence.

My distance or Century cadence is a bit slower as one would expect, maintaining the same cadence but a gear-or two lower. Counting rest stops, my average Century is around 5:45-6:10 of saddle time for a ~15.8-16.8mph pace.

Just this past month, I did my 'birthday ride' (61+ miles) in 4:03 of saddle time (average 15.0 mph) with just two short rest stops as my first 30+ mile ride of the year. Yeah, I'm an out-of-shape old man...

BTW, both of my 'primary' bikes are rolling on 28s. The old Fuji is on 27x1-1/8 and the Miyata is on 700x28.
Outstanding
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 01:11 AM
  #98  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,713
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1194 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
None of the guys and gals I know that ride in a fast group do 15mph solo unless it痴 on purpose (as in a recovery ride or a planned casual ride).
What's a "fast group," even? I'm not sure that I know anyone who considers themselves fast. A fast group seems to be a ride that a rider has a hard time hanging with.
HTupolev is online now  
Old 05-26-19, 07:48 AM
  #99  
jadocs
Senior Member
 
jadocs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 741

Bikes: Litespeed T2 Disc, Fondirest P4 Carbon, Fuji Cross 2.0, Specialized Fatboy

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 313 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 47 Posts
Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
What's a "fast group," even? I'm not sure that I know anyone who considers themselves fast. A fast group seems to be a ride that a rider has a hard time hanging with.
Fast group in my area is defined as rolling between 20-22 mph on the flats, but hitting 23-25 is not uncommon in areas. Usually it痴 defined by pace groups: C, B, and A. C= 12-14 mph, B = 15-17, and A= 19+. Because of the variation of abilities at 19+ mph, it痴 helpful to define the rolling parameters because an 鄭 ride can mean different things to people because there is no upper ceiling on speed. It痴 not fun for someone who is only capable of rolling 19-20 and the rest of the group is sustaining at 22+ And I wouldn稚 blame them.
jadocs is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 03:29 PM
  #100  
caloso
Packfodding 3
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 38,030

Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1821 Post(s)
Liked 144 Times in 89 Posts
Around here the A ride is pretty much all P123. It averages over 25 including some neutral sections. Depending on the wind and who shows up, there will often be longish sections over 30mph. https://www.strava.com/segments/12576615

B ride is mostly racers plus riders who used to race, riders who are thinking about racing, 50+ masters racers, and juniors.

Last edited by caloso; 05-26-19 at 03:34 PM.
caloso is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright ゥ 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.